Existence

[Drayno]

I often think of Descartes when I think about existentialism.

Not so much because of his philosophical works, but because of his famous saying, "I think - therefore I am."

Although very simple, his statement has undeniable existential undertones...

Thinking about his famous phrase I find myself thinking, is it mind over matter, or vice-versa?

Are we a product of our imagination, or do we simply exist as matter in a physical sense?

Is every thing an illusion - is our existence apart of a running program?

Is the choice of free-will an illusion of choice if our existences are predetermined?

I don't want to branch out too far into the topic of free-will versus determinism.. But at the same time I want to infer how the two relate to a person in an existential context... Is existence what it is by virtue of sentience? If sentience allows us to retain memory, is existence nothing more than a byproduct of having the ability to understand what we perceive as the 'past', and thus the ability to react differently than we have reacted in the 'future'? Because if we are simply organic beings capable of memory, than existence is the recognition of every thing around us with an air of familiarity. It is being comfortable in the state of existing?

I'm not entirely sure.

I don't want to go too far into existential nihilism, but could existence have zero value?

Is existence absurd?

Are we simply within a dream within a dream, truly existing when we are asleep, and asleep when we are awake?

These are all questions I have.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Kafkaesque

[Hasina]

What's the point? No point but to make one.

[Drayno]

What's the point? No point but to make one.

Sure, you can answer with the typical "no meaning except the meaning you give" response..

But let's dare to be creative.

Edited May 3, 2013 by Kafkaesque

[Rlyeh]

I often think of Descartes when I think about existentialism.

Not so much because of his philosophical works, but because of his famous saying, "I think - therefore I am."

Although very simple, his statement has undeniable existential undertones...

Thinking about his famous phrase I find myself thinking, is it mind over matter, or vice-versa?

You could take the phrase further and arrive at solipsism. Perhaps everyone besides you are philosophical zombies.

[Drayno]

You could take the phrase further and arrive at solipsism. Perhaps everyone besides you are philosophical zombies.

I've often thought, "what is every one around me is a manifestation of my sub-conscious" to no avail..

[SHaYap]

an earlier version :

"The unexamined life is not worth living." -- Socrates

[Drayno]

an earlier version :

"The unexamined life is not worth living." -- Socrates

Great quote! Those who have not examined their lives or questioned the narrative are the uninitiated..

Socrates led an interesting life - going to war, wandering Athens. being forced to drink Hemlock for being an 'atheist and corrupter of youth'..

I'm sure he questioned his existence many times throughout his life.

[SHaYap]

Socrates is my first Philosophy Superstar ... even had a poster of him I swear by every day before I got out the door ....

[flbrnt]

Existence is THINKING. No one can top Descartes.

[Clarakore]

Some claim the natural, and others would include the supernatural, are all a product of the mind

Others would say, "it is all out there."

What if everything is in the middle, between "all in here" and "all out there"? That is what Patrick Dunn lightly proposes.

That would mean our minds do not exist solely within us or that the environment is separate from us.

VS Ramachandran in one of his video lectures stated that in the same way our body act when rejecting organs not our own during a transplant because it recognizes what is ours and not, in the same way the body rejects thoughts not our own, but if we removed the filter we would be unable to recognize the difference between my thoughts and yours.

We are all one.

[markdohle]

^{On the everyday level of personal experience, we do exist, others exist, though the second point can't be proven, but if they talk like a person, walk like a person and do things that we don't want them to do, it would seem that they exist apart on their own. Other than that, it is a crap shoot LOL. As a Christian I have my own ideas about this, athiest and those who follow other paths another. In the post mondern world, the seeking after a truth is often despaired of......though I think there is truth and it can be found. Again, as a Christian I believe in the revelation of Jesus Christ and h is resurrection, so that would point to the reality of the world, created by a personal 'G-d'......and a rational universe that can be known by minds made in the image and likeness of God.}

^Peace

^mark

[Drayno]

Existence is THINKING. No one can top Descartes.

Fair reply! Thank you for your time.

Some claim the natural, and others would include the supernatural, are all a product of the mind

Others would say, "it is all out there."

What if everything is in the middle, between "all in here" and "all out there"? That is what Patrick Dunn lightly proposes.

That would mean our minds do not exist solely within us or that the environment is separate from us.

VS Ramachandran in one of his video lectures stated that in the same way our body act when rejecting organs not our own during a transplant because it recognizes what is ours and not, in the same way the body rejects thoughts not our own, but if we removed the filter we would be unable to recognize the difference between my thoughts and yours.

We are all one.

Interesting points..

The idea that we're all just aspects of one universal 'truth' sounds too glamorous to me personally, but I find that all humans have a unique relationship with one another. Not only are we - to suppose that reality isn't an illusion, or God created us, mathematical anomalies floating in the middle of a vast expanse, but we struggle with similar obstacles. With that in mind, I would say that the kinship we all feel with another is not an illusion - provided it is real catharsis and not a construct. I presume the 'filter' is what the individual perceives to be the essence of themselves. If that's the case, maybe we all are the same person leading different lives?

^{On the everyday level of personal experience, we do exist, others exist, though the second point can't be proven, but if they talk like a person, walk like a person and do things that we don't want them to do, it would seem that they exist apart on their own. Other than that, it is a crap shoot LOL. As a Christian I have my own ideas about this, athiest and those who follow other paths another. In the post mondern world, the seeking after a truth is often despaired of......though I think there is truth and it can be found. Again, as a Christian I believe in the revelation of Jesus Christ and h is resurrection, so that would point to the reality of the world, created by a personal 'G-d'......and a rational universe that can be known by minds made in the image and likeness of God.}

^Peace

^mark

Hello Mark - glad to see you joined in on this topic!

I fall into the category, personally, of an agnostic. If God exists than that would simplify or rationalize my existence a little easier. Seeing as I admit I don't know if God is real or not - and I'm divided, the issue of existence is sort of a pressing matter to me and one that I often meditate on extensively. I wouldn't call it an existential crisis per se, but I do have questions of my own, like so many other people do. I don't want to go too deep into religion as I want to try to keep this as philosophical as I can, but indeed I do agree that in our current era the entire world is mapped out. Oceans and continents have been explored. Adventure has been replaced by technology. We live in a confusing time, which further complicates ideas of existence. People are complacent with their lives without questioning.. So to the average mind maybe the idea of questioning does equate with despair. To the dependent mind the idea of thinking must be overwhelmingly horrible. Especially when it comes to existence.

[sutemi]

Hi Kafkaesque, You might like this vid with words by Alan Watts

[Imperious]

I have a friend who genuinely believes that we were once products of Aliens, used as slaves then abandoned, I honestly have no clue what to think.

It's so crazy, when you truly think about it, the Matrix and things revolving around that movie could very well be possible.

[White Crane Feather]

Indeed sutemi,

[Rlyeh]

I have a friend who genuinely believes that we were once products of Aliens, used as slaves then abandoned, I honestly have no clue what to think.

Let me guess, the aliens came from Nibiru?

[Blueogre2]

Existence? Well there are two ways of dealing with that problem. On the one hand it's a simple yes. But on the other hand it goes much deeper then simply that. Truth is no one really knows what existence is in the first place much less what entities fall under that category

[dougeaton]

I often think of Descartes when I think about existentialism.

Not so much because of his philosophical works, but because of his famous saying, "I think - therefore I am."

Although very simple, his statement has undeniable existential undertones...

Thinking about his famous phrase I find myself thinking, is it mind over matter, or vice-versa?

Are we a product of our imagination, or do we simply exist as matter in a physical sense?

Is every thing an illusion - is our existence apart of a running program?

Is the choice of free-will an illusion of choice if our existences are predetermined?

I don't want to branch out too far into the topic of free-will versus determinism.. But at the same time I want to infer how the two relate to a person in an existential context... Is existence what it is by virtue of sentience? If sentience allows us to retain memory, is existence nothing more than a byproduct of having the ability to understand what we perceive as the 'past', and thus the ability to react differently than we have reacted in the 'future'? Because if we are simply organic beings capable of memory, than existence is the recognition of every thing around us with an air of familiarity. It is being comfortable in the state of existing?

I'm not entirely sure.

I don't want to go too far into existential nihilism, but could existence have zero value?

Is existence absurd?

Are we simply within a dream within a dream, truly existing when we are asleep, and asleep when we are awake?

These are all questions I have.

We stand out, apart from the whole, we are self aware, that is what it means to exist as a human being. Perhaps for animals it is different, different brain, different experience. To stand out brings with it pain I would guess, perhaps a longing to return to the oness we had before we were born, or oblivion if you want to get specific. All we can do is live each day, weary that can make us, and then we die. Believers have their own take on this kind of thing........I think we just blink out and don't exist anymore.....

much ado over nothing is what are lives are most likely. My friends who are believers would disagree with myi assessment.

doug

[StarMountainKid]

Isn't existence for us who we are and what happens to us and our reactions to our experiences?

We can add all sorts of philosophical or religious 'extras' to our personalities, and in a sense we become these philosophies and religions, but what is the basic 'us' to which these are added?

Is there a fundamental, universal self we can discover within ourselves that is pre-existent to experience? And if we discover this, what then?

Edited May 10, 2013 by StarMountainKid

[redhen]

Existence is THINKING. No one can top Descartes.

So every other species besides homo sapiens, that does not have the cognitive ability for thought or second order thought, don't exist?

Descartes has been obsolete for many centuries.

[StarMountainKid]

Oh, I forgot to add, the evil Vulgarians created our universe in their laboratories out of spite. They are unhappy with their universe, so they thought they'd spread their musfortune around, reasoning why should they suffer alone.

In this context our existence is most likely the norm, as probably some other dissatisfied life-forms created the Vulgarian's universe for the same reason.

So I suppose we just have to contend with the existence we've been given. In other words, make the best of a bad situation. This may sound too negative to some, but living in a messed-up universe is a challenge for us, which in a way is a good thing. If we can survive happily here, we've accomplished a great victory for ourselves, and shame the stupid Vulgarians and their malcontent predecessors.

[Gearshaag]

Is existence absurd? I believe so, but that is my own personal belief regarding this. There really isn't any litmus test available to really determine whether or not we have free-will, so I think that arguing this is somewhat futile.

I agree that Descartes is somewhat outdated and is a pretty rudimentary version of some sort of existential philosophy. If you want to know where to start when it comes to that stuff then Descartes is crucial. However, existentialism branches out into many other, more complex things and has evolved dramatically since Descartes into a many-headed beast.

Ultimately, I do believe that existence leads to nothingness and that everything will eventually crumble and be buried under the layers of the sands of time. I don't think life or anything has any objective meaning, which doesn't negate any meaning whatsoever, it just amounts to ultimately nothing in the end (very original, no? xD) . I do think that it is up to us to give our existence meaning and to figure things out on our own somewhat (there's only so much one can figure out both alone and with the help of others since humans are limited in so many ways). I don't believe in a god or anything supernatural, but nevertheless, there could very well be something beyond us (maybe a deistic god, perhaps?) and I'm very willing to admit that I could be wrong. I do lean strongly towards the LHP and I would consider myself somewhat of an Atheistic Satanist, but my own personal philosophy has also evolved beyond just mere Satanism itself. Sticking with just mere Satanism as 100% of my own belief system would be pretty stagnating and would end up ultimately becoming a regress. Incorporating other ideas and beliefs is crucial to evolving one's perspective when it comes to life, existence, etc... and becoming more knowledgeable and well-rounded intellectually.

Ok, I'm done with my incoherent rambling...

[Bendy Demon]

I don't want to go too far into existential nihilism, but could existence have zero value?

Value is a human based judgement so existence neither possesses nor lacks value. It just..is what it is.

Is existence absurd?

No...you'd have to compare it to something that we humans think of as non-absurd. I mean, what would you really compare it to?

Why would existence be considered absurd?

Are we simply within a dream within a dream, truly existing when we are asleep, and asleep when we are awake?

These are all questions I have.

Sometimes it feels like that, that's for sure. But whose dream? The dream ends when the sleeper wakens, but when?

[SHaYap]

we live and learn .... we learn and live ...

[Drayno]

Value is a human based judgement so existence neither possesses nor lacks value. It just..is what it is.

No...you'd have to compare it to something that we humans think of as non-absurd. I mean, what would you really compare it to?

Why would existence be considered absurd?

These are all questions I have.

Sometimes it feels like that, that's for sure. But whose dream? The dream ends when the sleeper wakens, but when?

“I said that the world is absurd, but I was too hasty. This world in itself is not reasonable, that is all that can be said. But what is absurd is the confrontation of this irrational and the wild longing for clarity whose call echoes in the human heart.” - Camus

Young children dying from the plague, feeling pain needlessly - I find that absurd..

We are existing on a small rock in an expansive vacuum filled with tons of matter - pretty absurd stuff..

We face pestilence and the certainty of death, but we are encouraged by the state to live every day normally... I personally find it absurd.

I also find it absurd that most humans live like penguins in the desert.