Palestine not for Sale or Trade

[Black Red Devil]

Thats a weird and inaccurate definition of "aggressor". Israels' actions, even most of its defence forces, would be unneccesary if it was not forced to defend itself from constant attacks in many forms. These include; urban guerrila warfare, car bombs, terrorist attacks, hijackings assainations, rocket strikes, incursions from neighbouring states, and even conventional military attacks.

Your statement implies that the existance of the state of Israel justifies resistance and violence against its existence, and when Israel defends itslef against attack, that is aggression.

To extend your logic, the attack on the twin towers was an act of defence against american military aggression. Lots of luck arguing that one.

LOL. Just disregard everything that was mentioned up to now. The more you post and the more you're making a fool of yourself.

[buckskin scout]

LOL. Just disregard everything that was mentioned up to now. The more you post and the more you're making a fool of yourself.

True. This has a name and it is called... indoctrination.

[Black Red Devil]

First the west is not as dependent on "Arab" oil as you suggest,

Then this!!!

I'd provide you with some links and figures on how reliant Europe is on Libyan and the US on Iraqi and Saudi oil but I'm pretty sure I'd be wasting my time. So, whatever. Keep on rambling on in your own little bubble mate.

[DarkHunter]

Since you won't mention where Europe and the US gets its oil I will.

For the US, 38.8% is produced by the US, 19.6% from Latin America, 15.1% from Canada, 12.9% from the Persian Gulf, 10.3% from Africa, and 3.1% from other areas

For Europe I had a bit more trouble finding the numbers but I seem to be getting about 42% from Russia and former USSR countries, 22% from Africa, 17% from the Middle East, and the remaining 19% comes from a mixture of Europe and the Americas

Europe depends a bit more on Middle Eastern oil then the US but it is no where near the dependency you seem to be claiming.

[Mr Walker]

What facts have you provided Mr Walker? Just personal opinions supported, again, by your personal experiences (biased) i.e. I lived through that war, albeit vicariously. That was NOT the opinion of experts on all sides at the time.

I provide statements from the protagonists and you say "so what" and keep on rambling on with your biased views.

You even have the hide to state "CAll me gullible, but I am not influenced by opinions, only facts."

Anyway, I'm done with this thread and with you. Got no time to waste with people that think repeating their opinions to the infinity, without facts and evidence to base their beliefs on, brings a convincing debate to the thread.

Fair enough. I don't expect to convince a person who is so indoctrinated into a set of beliefs as you are. But other people with less bias, read these forums and I cant let your very biased view of history stand unchallenged.

They can read, both the news reports of the day, (primary sources) and academic history books, then make up their own minds, but repeating arab propaganda and bias doesn't make anything true. Nor does claiming that the western media /wiki, and everyone else who happens to disagree with your personal (albeit shared by others) version of history is wrong, sound very convincing.

Selecting sources out of context, and without analysis of that context, is no more convincing than me simply repeating mainstream historical facts. Rather less so IMO.

It is not my job to convince anyone. They can just go to mainstream sources and media to find the truth. But your form of alternative history can't be just left uunchallenged either. Already the lies, repeated over and over, tend to gain some respectability by their repetition, especially on the net, where a person's true alliances and allegiances are hidden and where "a party line" can be repeated by a hundred different individuals without any acknowledgement or accountability..

Fortunately the biases behind it are so obvious as to discount most of it anyway.

[Mr Walker]

Then this!!!

I'd provide you with some links and figures on how reliant Europe is on Libyan and the US on Iraqi and Saudi oil but I'm pretty sure I'd be wasting my time. So, whatever. Keep on rambling on in your own little bubble mate.

See the data quoted by dark hunter. I dont have to prove/quote established and well known statistics. Anyone can look them up.

As a geographer historian and social scientist among other things. It is my job to KNOW this sort of stuff.

New shale oil production is increasing america's domestic production. Australia could provide all its own oil but choses to sell a lot of its oil gas coal etc overseas and tax/connect domestic supplies to a world parity price.

The "peak oil crisis", while deferred a bit by new technologies will still occur in a decade or two, at which time "oil" and the politics associated with it, will largely become irrelevant .

My education and interest in politics also informs me that it is untrue that americas foreign policy is mostly driven by the need to keep oil supplies ensured. That is furphy produced by the media in large part. The geopolitics of America's foreign

relationships is much more complex than that and largely revolves around domestic political drivers. Ie america foreign policy goes as far as, and in the directions which, the american people allow it to.

America can secure adequate oil supplies by various diplomatic and military means without having to accomodate arab interests.

With expanded domestic production, US petroleum imports have fallen by a third since 2008,

http://news.msn.com/us/us-has-cut-oil-imports-under-obama

Edited May 19, 2013 by Mr Walker

[Black Red Devil]

See the data quoted by dark hunter. I dont have to prove/quote established and well known statistics. Anyone can look them up.

As a geographer historian and social scientist among other things. It is my job to KNOW this sort of stuff.

New shale oil production is increasing america's domestic production. Australia could provide all its own oil but choses to sell a lot of its oil gas coal etc overseas and tax/connect domestic supplies to a world parity price.

The "peak oil crisis", while deferred a bit by new technologies will still occur in a decade or two, at which time "oil" and the politics associated with it, will largely become irrelevant .

My education and interest in politics also informs me that it is untrue that americas foreign policy is mostly driven by the need to keep oil supplies ensured. That is furphy produced by the media in large part. The geopolitics of America's foreign

relationships is much more complex than that and largely revolves around domestic political drivers. Ie america foreign policy goes as far as, and in the directions which, the american people allow it to.

America can secure adequate oil supplies by various diplomatic and military means without having to accomodate arab interests.

With expanded domestic production, US petroleum imports have fallen by a third since 2008,

http://news.msn.com/...rts-under-obama

My link

[Black Red Devil]

Since you won't mention where Europe and the US gets its oil I will.

For the US, 38.8% is produced by the US, 19.6% from Latin America, 15.1% from Canada, 12.9% from the Persian Gulf, 10.3% from Africa, and 3.1% from other areas

For Europe I had a bit more trouble finding the numbers but I seem to be getting about 42% from Russia and former USSR countries, 22% from Africa, 17% from the Middle East, and the remaining 19% comes from a mixture of Europe and the Americas

Europe depends a bit more on Middle Eastern oil then the US but it is no where near the dependency you seem to be claiming.

What are the figures I was claiming?

[DarkHunter]

I'd provide you with some links and figures on how reliant Europe is on Libyan and the US on Iraqi and Saudi oil but I'm pretty sure I'd be wasting my time. So, whatever. Keep on rambling on in your own little bubble mate.

While not claiming exact figures you where saying that the US and Europe is reliant on middle eastern oil. I have shown that while the US and Europe get oil from the middle east both are far from being reliant on the middle east for their oil needs.

[Black Red Devil]

While not claiming exact figures you where saying that the US and Europe is reliant on middle eastern oil. I have shown that while the US and Europe get oil from the middle east both are far from being reliant on the middle east for their oil needs.

About 70% of oil reserves in the world are in the Persian Gulf or other Arab countries. Not sure how accurate your figures are since you didn't provide a link, but even if so, for how long?

Unless the US decides to dig into their enormous shale reserve deposits or the world opts for an alternative energy source, guess who are going to be invited to all the White House parties? Throw on top of this that Arab countries also have approximately 50% of natural gas reserves in the world and bingo there goes Mr Walker's educational theory lesson.

[DarkHunter]

You can try to change the meaning of your initial statement but it does not change the fact that you said that the US and Europe rely on middle east oil when they simply do not. The amount of oil in the middle east is irrelevant to the statement I responded to since so little of the oil imported to the US and Europe is from the middle east.

As for 70% of the oil reserves being in the middle east might as well look at that figure too. The first problem with your figure is that the 70% of all oil reserves belong to OPEC countries not middle eastern countries and OPEC is made up of countries from the middle east, Africa, and the Americas.

Now that the 70% figure error has been taken care of it is now time to look at who has the most oil reserves. Saudi Arabia has the most oil at 265,405 to 460,017 MMbbl, next is Venezuela at 211,169 to 297,571 MMbbl, third is Canada at 173,625 to 175,200 MMbbl, fourth is Iran at 151,167 to 154,580 MMbbl, fifth is Iran at 143,000 to 147,000 MMbbl, and Sixth is Kuwait at 103,998 to 111,500 MMbbl. After that the oil reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly with the US ranking at thirteenth with 20,682 MMbbl.

The top two countries the US imports oil from have the second and third largest oil reserves in the world so I doubt we will be worrying about buying from the middle east any time soon, not that we buy much oil form then anyway. Europe is a bit different because most their oil comes from Russia who ranks eighth at 60,003 to 116,000 MMbbl but even then they are only slightly more dependent on middle eastern oil and the amounts they have then the US.

Now that is just oil and does not cover natural gas. For natural gas Russia is first with 55 trillion m^3, second is Iran with 33.5 trillion m^3, third is Turkmenistan at 26.2 trillion m^3, fourth is Qatar at 25.4 trillion m^3, fifth is the US at 9 trillion m^3, and sixth is Saudi Arabia at 8.2 trillion m^3, after these natural gas reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly like oil reserves. What is rather interesting is that I found the amount of natural gas reserves the middle east has to be closer to 36% and not the 50% you are claiming.

The biggest problem with all of this and you would of came across this if you did research on this is that the US tends to underestimate the amount of oil and natural gas reserves while the middle east tends to over estimate their oil and natural gas reserves.

Once you throw in the movement to alternative forms of energy that the US and I am assuming Europe are also beginning to undertake then the amounts of oil and natural gas the middle east has becomes completely pointless.

[Black Red Devil]

You can try to change the meaning of your initial statement but it does not change the fact that you said that the US and Europe rely on middle east oil when they simply do not. The amount of oil in the middle east is irrelevant to the statement I responded to since so little of the oil imported to the US and Europe is from the middle east.

As for 70% of the oil reserves being in the middle east might as well look at that figure too. The first problem with your figure is that the 70% of all oil reserves belong to OPEC countries not middle eastern countries and OPEC is made up of countries from the middle east, Africa, and the Americas.

Now that the 70% figure error has been taken care of it is now time to look at who has the most oil reserves. Saudi Arabia has the most oil at 265,405 to 460,017 MMbbl, next is Venezuela at 211,169 to 297,571 MMbbl, third is Canada at 173,625 to 175,200 MMbbl, fourth is Iran at 151,167 to 154,580 MMbbl, fifth is Iran at 143,000 to 147,000 MMbbl, and Sixth is Kuwait at 103,998 to 111,500 MMbbl. After that the oil reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly with the US ranking at thirteenth with 20,682 MMbbl.

The top two countries the US imports oil from have the second and third largest oil reserves in the world so I doubt we will be worrying about buying from the middle east any time soon, not that we buy much oil form then anyway. Europe is a bit different because most their oil comes from Russia who ranks eighth at 60,003 to 116,000 MMbbl but even then they are only slightly more dependent on middle eastern oil and the amounts they have then the US.

Now that is just oil and does not cover natural gas. For natural gas Russia is first with 55 trillion m^3, second is Iran with 33.5 trillion m^3, third is Turkmenistan at 26.2 trillion m^3, fourth is Qatar at 25.4 trillion m^3, fifth is the US at 9 trillion m^3, and sixth is Saudi Arabia at 8.2 trillion m^3, after these natural gas reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly like oil reserves. What is rather interesting is that I found the amount of natural gas reserves the middle east has to be closer to 36% and not the 50% you are claiming.

The biggest problem with all of this and you would of came across this if you did research on this is that the US tends to underestimate the amount of oil and natural gas reserves while the middle east tends to over estimate their oil and natural gas reserves.

Once you throw in the movement to alternative forms of energy that the US and I am assuming Europe are also beginning to undertake then the amounts of oil and natural gas the middle east has becomes completely pointless.

You can try to change the meaning of your initial statement but it does not change the fact that you said that the US and Europe rely on middle east oil when they simply do not. The amount of oil in the middle east is irrelevant to the statement I responded to since so little of the oil imported to the US and Europe is from the middle east.

As for 70% of the oil reserves being in the middle east might as well look at that figure too. The first problem with your figure is that the 70% of all oil reserves belong to OPEC countries not middle eastern countries and OPEC is made up of countries from the middle east, Africa, and the Americas.

Now that the 70% figure error has been taken care of it is now time to look at who has the most oil reserves. Saudi Arabia has the most oil at 265,405 to 460,017 MMbbl, next is Venezuela at 211,169 to 297,571 MMbbl, third is Canada at 173,625 to 175,200 MMbbl, fourth is Iran at 151,167 to 154,580 MMbbl, fifth is Iran at 143,000 to 147,000 MMbbl, and Sixth is Kuwait at 103,998 to 111,500 MMbbl. After that the oil reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly with the US ranking at thirteenth with 20,682 MMbbl.

The top two countries the US imports oil from have the second and third largest oil reserves in the world so I doubt we will be worrying about buying from the middle east any time soon, not that we buy much oil form then anyway. Europe is a bit different because most their oil comes from Russia who ranks eighth at 60,003 to 116,000 MMbbl but even then they are only slightly more dependent on middle eastern oil and the amounts they have then the US.

Now that is just oil and does not cover natural gas. For natural gas Russia is first with 55 trillion m^3, second is Iran with 33.5 trillion m^3, third is Turkmenistan at 26.2 trillion m^3, fourth is Qatar at 25.4 trillion m^3, fifth is the US at 9 trillion m^3, and sixth is Saudi Arabia at 8.2 trillion m^3, after these natural gas reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly like oil reserves. What is rather interesting is that I found the amount of natural gas reserves the middle east has to be closer to 36% and not the 50% you are claiming.

The biggest problem with all of this and you would of came across this if you did research on this is that the US tends to underestimate the amount of oil and natural gas reserves while the middle east tends to over estimate their oil and natural gas reserves.

Once you throw in the movement to alternative forms of energy that the US and I am assuming Europe are also beginning to undertake then the amounts of oil and natural gas the middle east has becomes completely pointless.

You can try to change the meaning of your initial statement but it does not change the fact that you said that the US and Europe rely on middle east oil when they simply do not. The amount of oil in the middle east is irrelevant to the statement I responded to since so little of the oil imported to the US and Europe is from the middle east.

As for 70% of the oil reserves being in the middle east might as well look at that figure too. The first problem with your figure is that the 70% of all oil reserves belong to OPEC countries not middle eastern countries and OPEC is made up of countries from the middle east, Africa, and the Americas.

Now that the 70% figure error has been taken care of it is now time to look at who has the most oil reserves. Saudi Arabia has the most oil at 265,405 to 460,017 MMbbl, next is Venezuela at 211,169 to 297,571 MMbbl, third is Canada at 173,625 to 175,200 MMbbl, fourth is Iran at 151,167 to 154,580 MMbbl, fifth is Iran at 143,000 to 147,000 MMbbl, and Sixth is Kuwait at 103,998 to 111,500 MMbbl. After that the oil reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly with the US ranking at thirteenth with 20,682 MMbbl.

The top two countries the US imports oil from have the second and third largest oil reserves in the world so I doubt we will be worrying about buying from the middle east any time soon, not that we buy much oil form then anyway. Europe is a bit different because most their oil comes from Russia who ranks eighth at 60,003 to 116,000 MMbbl but even then they are only slightly more dependent on middle eastern oil and the amounts they have then the US.

Now that is just oil and does not cover natural gas. For natural gas Russia is first with 55 trillion m^3, second is Iran with 33.5 trillion m^3, third is Turkmenistan at 26.2 trillion m^3, fourth is Qatar at 25.4 trillion m^3, fifth is the US at 9 trillion m^3, and sixth is Saudi Arabia at 8.2 trillion m^3, after these natural gas reserves start to drop a bit more rapidly like oil reserves. What is rather interesting is that I found the amount of natural gas reserves the middle east has to be closer to 36% and not the 50% you are claiming.

The biggest problem with all of this and you would of came across this if you did research on this is that the US tends to underestimate the amount of oil and natural gas reserves while the middle east tends to over estimate their oil and natural gas reserves.

Once you throw in the movement to alternative forms of energy that the US and I am assuming Europe are also beginning to undertake then the amounts of oil and natural gas the middle east has becomes completely pointless.

I see you do your research with Wikipedia.

OPEC gives the percentage at 81% which includes all Arab countries minus Venezuela, Ecuador and Iran. So it's closer to 50-60% than 70%. The point I was making was about the dangers of a united Arab world (or Caliphate) and the reliability of the West on Arab resources. If you think 50% of oil and gas is peanuts and the West can get along fine on it's own well who am I to convince you otherwise.

But, I have to admit I did make an error when I included Iran in the figures for Natural Gas. So maybe it is less than 50%.

[Mr Walker]

My link

ten years out of date.

And it doesnt matter how much oil in reserve the middle east has, if countries can supply their own energy needs via their own oil or, increasingly, via other greener technologies. The days of oil as an energy source for domestic use, and for transport, are almost at an end anyway. My state already suppiles 30% of its energy from renewable sources (on some days it is 100%) and increasingly cars will become electric, powered by renewable elactricity

Edited May 21, 2013 by Mr Walker

[DarkHunter]

I use wikipedia as a quick reference to get a relative idea of the figures. I then check the figures wikipedia has with different sources to confirm the information from wikipedia is correct. All the numbers I posted where within minor differences and since wikipedia had all the numbers in one place already organized I did use it instead of trying to go threw multiple tabs and organizing the data myself.

I do not know what OPEC graph you are looking at but the one I am seeing when I go to there website is a good bit different then what you are claiming.

According to this graph OPEC has 81% of the oil reserves like you. But that 81% includes all the countries you are saying it excludes. Second your geography is terrible, while Venezuela, Ecuador, and Iran are not part of the middle east neither is Nigeria, Libya, Angola, and Algeria. You may try to argue that the African nations are Arabic but that doesn't work since out of the four African nations you forgot to take out, only Libya and Algeria have any Arabic connection and even then from a quick ethnic source they both only have partial Arab ethnicity. So that leaves 52.7% of oil reserves in middle east countries according to OPEC, now the problem with all of this is that middle eastern countries have a tendency to vastly overestimate the amount of oil they have in their countries. In the 1980's a lot of the middle eastern countries doubled or tripled the estimates of the oil they claimed they had but they never released how they came about these drastic increases, the middle eastern countries don't even provide verification of their oil reserves that meets external standards. According to OPEC the middle east has 52.7% of the worlds oil but they won't say how they got those numbers or provide any verification of those amounts. Since politics in the middle east are connected with oil and the amount of oil reserves a country has can we really trust what they are saying without verification.

As for natural gas I keep coming up with the middle east having about a third of the world's natural gas which is a good bit less then 50%.

That leaves the middle east having a third of the worlds natural gas and them claiming to have 52.7% of the worlds oil but won't produce any evidence that stands up to external review to back up their claims. Not that those figures matter much to Europe or the US since both import so little oil and natural gas from middle east countries.

As for a united Arab world being a threat, that is laughable at best. A combined middle east couldn't even stand up against the US let alone the US and Europe. Even if the middle east could unite before their oil and natural gas reserves run out or become useless by clean technology and they decided to stop selling to the US and Europe completely while it would have an effect, with a slightly greater effect in Europe, it would not be that great of an effect. Now even if it had a great effect and drove both the US and Europe to war with a united middle east both the US and Europe would completely crush any military a united middle east could throw together and would quickly capture all oil and natural gas fields. A united middle east will never become a true threat to the US and Europe for the foreseeable future.

Lastly the West can do just find without resources from the middle east since they have 52.7% of the worlds oil and a third of the worlds natural gas that means that 47.3% of the worlds oil and two thirds of the worlds natural gas is outside of the middle east and out of that the majority of those reserves are in the Americas, Africa, and Europe so I think the West can do just fine without middle east resources. Like I said before once you add in the movement towards green energy in the West how much longer will it even be till we no longer even use oil and natural gas and the middle east goes back to being a completely irrelevant desert that no one cares about.