Sub discovers signs of legendary Atlantis

[Proclus]

@Harte:

> Yet you stated that I was wrong about the earthquake that sank Atlantis.

No, I stated that you were wrong to conclude with certainty that Atlantis sank by tsunamis.

> Helike sank into the earth during an earthquake, not far from Plato's hometown, during Plato's life.

> It's a process called liquefaction.

> That would explain the "warlike men" sinking into the Earth. Earthquake.

First, in the eyes of the ancients, Helike was flooded by the sea after an earthquake.

I heavily doubt that the ancients had any idea of liquefaction.

You do not find it in the texts.

By the way: Helike is not Atlantis.

And primeval Athens ... did not sink beneath any water, according to Plato.

[regeneratia]

Whatever you say ...

What about the Priestesses ?

Are there any? LOL!

Ya suppose Patriarchy was plaguing humanity at that time too?

Edited May 16, 2013 by regeneratia

[SHaYap]

Are there any? LOL!

Ya suppose Patriarchy was plaguing humanity at that time too?

Maybe it was the wigs ...

Hey ... since there aren't any priestesses here you wanna be the one ? Benefits ain't much but you get to dress up all fancy ...

[Harte]

@Harte:

> Yet you stated that I was wrong about the earthquake that sank Atlantis.

No, I stated that you were wrong to conclude with certainty that Atlantis sank by tsunamis.

I didn't say that. Nobody here said that.

It was you that claimed Atlantis sank due to rain:

Earthquakes, yes, whereas the Athens-Atlantis flooding is more due to rain, not tsunamis, ...

... which makes it a tiny bit more similar to the biblical flood. But not similar enough to be the same.

http://www.atlantis-...antis_bible.htm

Funny how Plato tends to disagree:

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea.

Don't see any rain there. Besides, only tectonic action (like an earthquake) can sink landforms.

> Helike sank into the earth during an earthquake, not far from Plato's hometown, during Plato's life.

> It's a process called liquefaction.

> That would explain the "warlike men" sinking into the Earth. Earthquake.

First, in the eyes of the ancients, Helike was flooded by the sea after an earthquake.

Which eyes are you talking about here? Are you channeling some ancient spirit?

I heavily doubt that the ancients had any idea of liquefaction.

You do not find it in the texts..

Perhaps you "do not find it in the texts," but I've already pointed it out to you, you simply don't want to see it, likely because it ruins whatever you wrote on your site, though not having read it, I can't say for sure.

"You do not find it in the texts." The phrase from Plato "...sank into the Earth..." would seem to say otherwise.

By the way: Helike is not Atlantis.

Quite so. Helike, being real, is not a fictional place invented for allegorical purposes.

Harte

[Sheep Smart]

Lets assume the reality of Platos accounts stating Atlantis having been bigger than known europe and asia and west of Gibraltar, having implied a great lost civilization ,..am I the only one who would conclude his reference of Atlantis being that of north and south America?

Hasn't anyone else thought of that? I don't understand all this island ****. The island is the continent of the americas.

Greatest Mystery ever solved.

Pack up and go home folks.

[cormac mac airt]

Lets assume the reality of Platos accounts stating Atlantis having been bigger than known europe and asia and west of Gibraltar, having implied a great lost civilization ,..am I the only one who would conclude his reference of Atlantis being that of north and south America?

Hasn't anyone else thought of that? I don't understand all this island ****. The island is the continent of the americas.

Greatest Mystery ever solved.

Pack up and go home folks.

This completely ignores the fact that Plato says, in Timaeus:

and there was an island situated in front of the straits which are by

you called the Pillars of Heracles; the island was larger than Libya

and Asia put together

and sufficiently so that:

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

Neither North nor South America is "in front of" the Straits of Gibraltar and sufficiently so to effectively cut off access to or from the Mediterranean. Nor did either North or South America "disappear in the depts of the sea".

In order for this idea to work, and you're not the first to speculate about it, one has to completely ignore what Plato says about Atlantis' size and location. And even his size is a bit contradictory as while he says "larger than Asia and Africa" the measurements he gives, in stadia, put the island of Atlantis' size at around 290 X 290 miles. This doesn't remotely approach the size of the Americas.

cormac

[Proclus]

@Harte:

I do not accept your continued intentional misunderstandings.

Help yourself to understand my statements, I am not a waiter in a kindergarten.

> "You do not find it in the texts." The phrase from Plato "...sank into the Earth..." would seem to say otherwise.

You cannot draw any specific knowlegde from this phrase "... sank into the Earth ..." - could mean everything including mythical events (I thought you like the mythical interpretation when it comes to the Atlantis account, why so scientific, now?).

First described in 1918:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_liquefaction

[Harte]

First observed by the Greeks in Helike - 373 B.C.

There is no myth of Atlantis, nor is their a myth of Helike.

Neither place is mythical at all.

Atlantis is allegorical.

It was you that claimed rains sank the continent. So, where do you "see it in the texts?"

Harte

[Abramelin]

First observed by the Greeks in Helike - 373 B.C.

There is no myth of Atlantis, nor is their a myth of Helike.

Neither place is mythical at all.

Atlantis is allegorical.

It was you that claimed rains sank the continent. So, where do you "see it in the texts?"

Harte

Where did he claim that?? I'd like a link to where he posted that.

Rains sinking a continent, lol. Flooded, ok, but sinking it?

[SHaYap]

gives new meaning to 'heavy' rains methinks ....

[Proclus]

@Abramelin:

> Where did he claim that?? I'd like a link to where he posted that.

> Rains sinking a continent, lol. Flooded, ok, but sinking it?

Thank you that you ask before condemning me :-)

Obviously, rain cannot make a continent sinking, so I wonder why Harte tries to make a ridiculous discussion of this.

But ... - and this is now very interesting - ... tsunamis obviously cannot make a larger island sinking, too!

The idea that Atlantis sank "in" a flood (like Noah's flood made the land "sinking") is basically wrong.

A larger island can sink because of earthquakes, and then, the flood pours in, as a consequence, but not as the cause.

Hope you agree, that the thought is surprising!

[docyabut2]

Plato

But at a later time there occurred portentous earthquakes and floods, and one grievous day and night befell them, when the whole body of your warriors was swallowed up by the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner was swallowed up by the sea and vanished; wherefore also the sea at that spot has now become impassable and unsearchable, being blocked up by the shoal mud which the island created as it settled down

I surmise that it was a tsunani that affected the island of Atlantis , yes vanished and swallowed by the sea at frist by the tsunani but was mud blocked up in that spot when the island settled down making it impassable and unsearchable in finding the harbor city,

[Harte]

Where did he claim that?? I'd like a link to where he posted that.

Earthquakes, yes, whereas the Athens-Atlantis flooding is more due to rain, not tsunamis, ...

... which makes it a tiny bit more similar to the biblical flood. But not similar enough to be the same.

http://www.atlantis-...antis_bible.htm

Link

The above prompted me to ask:

Can you show where Plato indicates the above?

Harte

Rains sinking a continent, lol. Flooded, ok, but sinking it?

He attributes a flood of Atlantis to rainfall, it appears. I merely asked where Plato indicates this. The destruction Plato wrote about involved sinking into the sea. If the "flood" of Atlantis is due to rains, then what other conclusion are we to reach?

Being admonished by Proclus for asserting a thing that "You don't find... in the texts," after the above Atlantis flood claim from him, was just a bit too much.

Harte

[Proclus]

*sigh*

a ) Primeval Athens "sinks" into what? Into the Earth. How? By rain. Process of erosion of land from the hills. Clearly described by Plato. ("Liquefaction"? No, see above.)

b ) Atlantis sinks into what? Into the sea. How? By earthquake. (Not!!! by tsunami, a tsunami does not make sinking!).

A flood makes water rising, an earthquake makes land sinking - this is not the same, please please understand this! Thank you.

PLEASE!!!!

Edited May 18, 2013 by Proclus

[Harte]

*sigh*

a ) Primeval Athens "sinks" into what? Into the Earth. How? By rain. Process of erosion of land from the hills. Clearly described by Plato. ("Liquefaction"? No, see above.)

Thusly:

Soil liquefaction describes a phenomenon where by a saturated soil substantially loses strength and stiffness in response to an applied stress, usually earthquake shaking or other sudden change in stress condition, causing it to behave like a liquid.

SNIP

The phenomenon is most often observed in saturated, loose (low density or uncompacted), sandy soils. This is because a loose sand has a tendency to compress when a load is applied; dense sands by contrast tend to expand in volume or 'dilate'. If the soil is saturated by water, a condition that often exists when the soil is below the ground water table or sea level, then water fills the gaps between soil grains ('pore spaces'). In response to the soil compressing, this water increases in pressure and attempts to flow out from the soil to zones of low pressure (usually upward towards the ground surface). However, if the loading is rapidly applied and large enough, or is repeated many times (e.g. earthquake shaking, storm wave loading) such that it does not flow out in time before the next cycle of load is applied, the water pressures may build to an extent where they exceed the contact stresses between the grains of soil that keep them in contact with each other. These contacts between grains are the means by which the weight from buildings and overlying soil layers are transferred from the ground surface to layers of soil or rock at greater depths. This loss of soil structure causes it to lose all of its strength (the ability to transfer shear stress) and it may be observed to flow like a liquid (hence 'liquefaction').

Source

The above perfectly describes how one, or many, or an entire city, can sink into the ground itself, without any subduction (land sinking) at all.

The use of the phrase "...sank into the Earth..." or "...was swollowed (up) by the Earth..." in various translations of Plato (and a lot of other ancient works) are good indications that people in Plato's time (and, obviously, before) were quite aware of what we today refer to as liquefaction.

A flood makes water rising, an earthquake makes land sinking - this is not the same, please please understand this! Thank you.

PLEASE!!!!

Tell that to these people.

Harte

Edited May 18, 2013 by Harte

[Proclus]

@all:

Harte:

> The use of the phrase "...sank into the Earth..." or "...was swollowed (up) by the Earth..." in various translations of Plato (and a lot of other ancient works)

> are good indications that people in Plato's time (and, obviously, before) were quite aware of what we today refer to as liquefaction.

Ssssssshhht! Don't tell it loudly! Harte shows his pseudo-scientific streak ... :-)

> Tell that to these people.

Means you haven't understood it. Sad.

_

Edited May 18, 2013 by Proclus

[SHaYap]

here we go ........ who want a cup of tea ?

[Proclus]

here we go ........ who want a cup of tea ?

You made my day.

[regeneratia]

Maybe it was the wigs ...

Hey ... since there aren't any priestesses here you wanna be the one ? Benefits ain't much but you get to dress up all fancy ...

I ihave already beenn labeled as one, tho it really is only to support an odd need in the person who did the labeling and, as I allow it to continue, must also feed an obscure need of mine. LOL.

[SHaYap]

I ihave already beenn labeled as one, tho it really is only to support an odd need in the person who did the labeling and, as I allow it to continue, must also feed an obscure need of mine. LOL.

Oh dear me ... I didn't realise ... I beg your forgiveness ... I shall lay prostrate before thee and kiss your little toe if I may be permitted to ...

Hail my Priestess //

Will my Priestess be requiring the dancing boys for the night ?

[regeneratia]

Oh dear me ... I didn't realise ... I beg your forgiveness ... I shall lay prostrate before thee and kiss your little toe if I may be permitted to ...

Hail my Priestess //

Will my Priestess be requiring the dancing boys for the night ?

LOL, good heavens, are you him?

Let's get back to the way it was at Atlantis, right?

[SHaYap]

LOL, good heavens, are you him?

Let's get back to the way it was at Atlantis, right?

As you wish my Priestess ... the dancing boys shall now retire to their previous state ....

"such a pity, I was looking forward to some dancing...."

"shuddup ... you want to be cursed for another 1300 years ?? "

~edit : keyboard plink instead of plonk

Edited May 18, 2013 by third_eye

[aquatus1]

Ssssssshhht! Don't tell it loudly! Harte shows his pseudo-scientific streak ... :-)

Proclius...Harte is actually posting phenomena that both actually occur and that fit the very definitions you provide.

Since he posted an example of what happens when "water rises", I'll show an example of what happens when something "sinks or is swallowed into the Earth" (as opposed to "land sinking"):

Incidentally, while there are no cases of liquifaction resulting in "land rising", there are plenty of examples of earthquakes causing land to rise:

...

Means you haven't understood it. Sad.

Proclius, you haven't garnered sufficient credibility to be condescending (Third Eye wasn't posting that image in support of yourself).

The simple fact of the matter is that getting you to post support (let alone evidence) for anything you claim is like pulling teeth, and when you finally do post something, it simply does not support what you are claiming. In this particular case, we have a description of Timaeus that you yourself posted describing exactly what is known today as liquefaction, and yet you imply that it actually supports something that has never been evidence to occur (the Biblical Flood).

This is a discussion board, Proclius. It takes absolutely no effort for people to click back to previous pages and see that Harte continually provides credible links to any claim he makes, while your claims not only rarely have links, the ones that do appear tend to not be valid or, on more than one occasion, even relevant.

If this is merely a thought exercise for you, fine, it's entertainment at a minimum. If, however, you are attempting to push this as some sort of scientific research, be aware, you are not showing yourself to be credible.

[SHaYap]

~snip

Proclius, you haven't garnered sufficient credibility to be condescending (Third Eye wasn't posting that image in support of yourself).

~snip

I just didn't know how to break it to Proclius gently .....

[Proclus]

@aquatus1:

1. My nick name is not Proclius but Proclus. Thanks for reading more carefully next time. It could help increase your credibility.

2. Harte failed totally in showing any description of liquefaction in Plato's Timaeus or any other ancient text. Plato *explicitly* talks of rain washing down the earth from the hills in case of primeval Athens and all other cases of cyclically repeating "flood catastrophes". Liquefaction by earthquakes is *not* explicitly mentioned. This is an *implicit* conclusion by Harte. As well as all other more or less pseudo-scientific conclusions as tsunamis, volcano eruptions, comet impacts, etc. Plato *explicitly* only talks of earthquakes (Atlantis) and rain-driven floods (primeval Athens). I even gave a scientific source, Eberhard Zangger.

3. Modern knowledge on liquefaction is worthless. Delete all your pictures. They are of no use. What is needed is a proof in ancient texts.

4. This is a discussion forum. If you cannot provide evidence, then leave.

5. aquatus1: "and yet you imply that it actually supports something that has never been evidence to occur (the Biblical Flood)."

Huh?! The biblical flood is a myth! I am surely allowed to quote myself: "However, it must be noted that the Epic of Gilgamesh as well as the Bible provide only vague information, so that no correspondance to a real event can be determined with certainty."

http://www.atlantis-...antis_bible.htm

> It takes absolutely no effort for people to click back to previous pages and see

> that Harte continually provides credible links to any claim he makes,

You think so?

> If, however, you are attempting to push this as some sort of scientific research,

> be aware, you are not showing yourself to be credible.

Scientific research is not done in internet forums.

Strange idea.

PS: For the sake of peace it is time to leave - for me.

_

Edited May 19, 2013 by Proclus