Trying to trace OLB's missing indians

[NO-ID-EA]

According to the OLB a tribe of Frisians returned home after helping Alexander the Great on his campaign in India , they returned home around the year 330 BC , having left around 1500 BC , is there any way these people could be traced during there time in India ?

After this length of time they would probably consider themselves totally Indian ,and may be thought of by the native people as native Indians , but on their return to Scandinavia they had kept memories of which parts of the land their ancestors had come from with Friso staying with his people in Staveren , Wichhirte remembering they came from Emude , along with Jons people who gathered they were Alderga people , and others going off to the 7 Islands , and to the citadel at Wallhallagara .

But if the OLB is a true history , who might they have been known as in India during that 1200 years , Alexander found them in a town where they had a large fleet of ships , but it is not stated whether this was on the coast , or on one of the great rivers of India,

are there any clues in the customs of certain Gotras (clans, or tribes ) could they be one of the 49 Gotras , and are there any more modern clues from DNA studies , where we might get some idea ,

or can we glean any information from some of the great and sacred books of the Hindus , the Buddhists or the Jains etc.

just starting out on this search so there are no preconcieved results , but just have a couple of possibilities that people with more knowledge will be able to either straighten out , or point the thread in the right direction . the idea is not trying to steal anyones history or heroes ,but if it has any result it could help to prove or disprove the other world history in the OLB, that is still at odds with that which is commonly held......So if anyone can help , or has any ideas of there own , then please join in . ................Thank in advance for your time ..

[The_Spartan]

1st. question. What is the validity of the OLB as a historical document?

Has the data in the LOB been verified with other records in other cultures/areas etc?

If you cant address the validity of the OLB, then you should add a disclaimer that "Assuming the OLB to be a real account of history etc..blah blah"

While considering the Historical Aspects, It is noted that Alexander established settlements and satrapies all along his route to India and in India too. These settlements/satrapies were ruled by his Commanders/Generals of his Army or his vassal kings/conquered kings.

The most important of all Greek settlements outside of Greece was Bactria. In the Indian subcontinent, the important settlements/satrapies were ruled by the Indian Kings Purusha/Porus and Ambhi/Taxiles.

The presence of Greeks in the Indian Subcontinent and South Asia is as per verified data from records/engravings/texts.

What is the evidence data for the presence of Frisians as a tribe in the Indian Sub continent? As long as you have assumptions, it doesn't become verifiable data.

The army of Alexander was not limited to greeks, but constituted of various nationalities, many being mercenaries on hire, many being armies of defeated enemy kingdoms.

So, as long as there is no record pin pointing any Frisian presence, the idea of them being forming a Gotra in India.

But, Many tribes of Bactria in modern day Afghanistan are descended from Ionian Soldiers (kown as Yavanas) who were brought there by Seleucus Nicator (being the Commander of Alexander's Cavalry) of the Seleucid Dynasty to replace the Macedonian Greeks who had wanted to leave Bactria.

There are clans/tribes in pakistan who claim descent from Alexanders Greek Soldiers.

Three Pakistani populations residing in northern Pakistan, the Burusho, Kalash and Pathan claim descent from Greek soldiers associated with Alexander's invasion of southwest Asia. Earlier studies have excluded a substantial Greek genetic input into these populations, but left open the question of a smaller contribution. We have now typed 90 binary polymorphisms and 16 multiallelic, short-tandem-repeat (STR) loci mapping to the male-specific portion of the human Y chromosome in 952 males, including 77 Greeks in order to re-investigate this question. In pairwise comparisons between the Greeks and the three Pakistani populations using genetic distance measures sensitive to recent events, the lowest distances were observed between the Greeks and the Pathans. Clade E3b1 lineages, which were frequent in the Greeks but not in Pakistan, were nevertheless observed in two Pathan individuals, one of whom shared a 16 Y-STR haplotype with the Greeks. The worldwide distribution of a shortened (9 Y-STR) version of this haplotype, determined from database information, was concentrated in Macedonia and Greece, suggesting an origin there. Although based on only a few unrelated descendants, this provides strong evidence for a European origin for a small proportion of the Pathan Y chromosomes.

Link

Another link with full access to the paper online is at this link.

NO-ID-EA, try not to refer to anecdotal data and thought exercises, refer to academia.

Edited May 12, 2013 by The_Spartan

[jaylemurph]

I don't think there's much in the way pointing towards the OLB being a legitimate historical source. It may -- may -- reflect some actual cultural beliefs of early Frisian people, but it's so far removed historically from what it purports to tell, and the culture was not literate to preserve the stories intact in a fixed form*, that it is no more useful a historical tool than the Bible. And that's on the slim chance it's not a deliberate fake -- which most of the evidence directly seems to point to.

*From what I've seen, the origin story seems an awful lot like a badly remembered version of Jordanes' De Origine Actibusque Getarum, which is both a logical starting place for a good fake and one well-known in 19th Century circles apt to create such a "joke" (fraud and fake are both not quite the word I'd use, and I think in purpose and function the OLB has a great deal in common with the Voynitch Manuscript).

--Jaylemurph

[NO-ID-EA]

1st. question. What is the validity of the OLB as a historical document?

Has the data in the LOB been verified with other records in other cultures/areas etc?

If you cant address the validity of the OLB, then you should add a disclaimer that "Assuming the OLB to be a real account of history etc..blah blah"

While considering the Historical Aspects, It is noted that Alexander established settlements and satrapies all along his route to India and in India too. These settlements/satrapies were ruled by his Commanders/Generals of his Army or his vassal kings/conquered kings.

The most important of all Greek settlements outside of Greece was Bactria. In the Indian subcontinent, the important settlements/satrapies were ruled by the Indian Kings Purusha/Porus and Ambhi/Taxiles.

The presence of Greeks in the Indian Subcontinent and South Asia is as per verified data from records/engravings/texts.

What is the evidence data for the presence of Frisians as a tribe in the Indian Sub continent? As long as you have assumptions, it doesn't become verifiable data.

The army of Alexander was not limited to greeks, but constituted of various nationalities, many being mercenaries on hire, many being armies of defeated enemy kingdoms.

So, as long as there is no record pin pointing any Frisian presence, the idea of them being forming a Gotra in India.

But, Many tribes of Bactria in modern day Afghanistan are descended from Ionian Soldiers (kown as Yavanas) who were brought there by Seleucus Nicator (being the Commander of Alexander's Cavalry) of the Seleucid Dynasty to replace the Macedonian Greeks who had wanted to leave Bactria.

There are clans/tribes in pakistan who claim descent from Alexanders Greek Soldiers.

Link

Another link with full access to the paper online is at this link.

NO-ID-EA, try not to refer to anecdotal data and thought exercises, refer to academia.

Thanks for replying Spartan ..........Unfortunately i dont know whether you have read the book or not , but it came to light in 1860 , it was published in 1872 by

people who still at that time thought it was genuine , but by 1879 it was discredited and classed as a 19th C forgery , since this time historical scholars

by and large avoid it like the plague , and of course there is not going to be any funding to investigate it with more modern methods , because people

now fear their careers may be at stake by associating themselves with it .

once before when i started a thread about it the first 2 pages of replies were all to tell me that OLB was a fake , and that i was wasting my time , but as is the way

of the world these days not one of them had bothered to read any of it , or find out about it except to read the wiki page on it which says its a fake, for them

that was enough , end of story and interest............So i am not sure what accademic resources will be available for a subject that has not been researched.

I note what you say about Bactria but as far as i know Bactria was a seperate kingdom and not part of India , whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar

and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way

the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .

Thanks for the info on dna tests for Greek DNA in Northern Pakistan , but according to OLB chronology , the frisii only went to Athens around 1627 BC, and had to leave under threat of death from someone called Cecrops in 1553 BC , when they left for India , so they were only in Greece for 74 years .and the cavalry brought by

Seleucas Nicator are not going to be the Indo-Scans as they have been resident in India and hired by Alexander in India .

[NO-ID-EA]

I don't think there's much in the way pointing towards the OLB being a legitimate historical source. It may -- may -- reflect some actual cultural beliefs of early Frisian people, but it's so far removed historically from what it purports to tell, and the culture was not literate to preserve the stories intact in a fixed form*, that it is no more useful a historical tool than the Bible. And that's on the slim chance it's not a deliberate fake -- which most of the evidence directly seems to point to.

*From what I've seen, the origin story seems an awful lot like a badly remembered version of Jordanes' De Origine Actibusque Getarum, which is both a logical starting place for a good fake and one well-known in 19th Century circles apt to create such a "joke" (fraud and fake are both not quite the word I'd use, and I think in purpose and function the OLB has a great deal in common with the Voynitch Manuscript).

--Jaylemurph

Thanks Jaylemurph........ I think yours is pretty much the opinion of most people , and it sounds like from what you say that you have read it , i have not read the

Jordanes book , but it sounds like i may need to from what you say ..........one difference at least with the Voynich manuscript and the OLB , i bet they wish

a key to decipher the writing was included in it and it has some nice pictures .........

[The_Spartan]

I note what you say about Bactria but as far as i know Bactria was a seperate kingdom and not part of India , whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar

and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way

the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .

Thanks for the info on dna tests for Greek DNA in Northern Pakistan , but according to OLB chronology , the frisii only went to Athens around 1627 BC, and had to leave under threat of death from someone called Cecrops in 1553 BC , when they left for India , so they were only in Greece for 74 years .and the cavalry brought by

Seleucas Nicator are not going to be the Indo-Scans as they have been resident in India and hired by Alexander in India .

In your first post you state that

According to the OLB a tribe of Frisians returned home after helping Alexander the Great on his campaign in India , they returned home around the year 330 BC , having left around 1500 BC , is there any way these people could be traced during there time in India ?

Are you implying that

The Frisians went with Alexander on his conquests or

Joined Alexander's Army in india?

If you were implying that they went with Alexander on his conquests, they would have started with alexander from the west and entered india through the west and not the east, which is contradictory to your statement

whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

Please clairfy the above.

[Abramelin]

Spartan, I think it's best when you first read these 2 chapters of the Oera Linda Book (with Sandbach's translation):

This is about the Geertmen.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

NOW I WILL RELATE HOW THE GEERTMAN AND MANY FOLLOWERS OF HELLENIA CAME BACK.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

Scroll down till you reach this sentence:

"After we had been settled 12 times 100 and twice 12 years in the Five Waters (Punjab), whilst our naval warriors were navigating all the seas they could find, came Alexander the King, with a powerful army descending the river towards our villages."

[Harsh86_Patel]

Spartan, I think it's best when you first read these 2 chapters of the Oera Linda Book (with Sandbach's translation):

This is about the Geertmen.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

NOW I WILL RELATE HOW THE GEERTMAN AND MANY FOLLOWERS OF HELLENIA CAME BACK.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

Scroll down till you reach this sentence:

"After we had been settled 12 times 100 and twice 12 years in the Five Waters (Punjab), whilst our naval warriors were navigating all the seas they could find, came Alexander the King, with a powerful army descending the river towards our villages."

He might call you a Fringe nationalist before exploring this possibility.

The mainstream denies any contact between the Greeks or any other European peoples with Indian before Alexander.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Harsh86_Patel

[The_Spartan]

He might call you a Fringe nationalist before exploring this possibility.

The mainstream denies any contact between the Greeks or any other European peoples with Indian before Alexander.

Maybe, i would.

Your issue? is it relevant to the topic we are debating here?

If not,do not derail a good debate.

I dont have time to waste to debate with you at all, but with NO-ID-EA, yes i do have time to discuss *SNIP*

Edited May 13, 2013 by Lilly
removed inflammatory remark

[Harsh86_Patel]

Maybe, i would.

Your issue? is it relevant to the topic we are debating here?

If not,do not derail a good debate.

I dont have time to waste to debate with you at all, but with NO-ID-EA, yes i do have time to discuss,*SNIP*

Just one more thing before i stop ....would you call these ancient Indians that we are discussing here as Hindus?

Lol nevermind i have already seen all that you have to offer.

Edited May 13, 2013 by Lilly
quote edit

[The_Spartan]

Spartan, I think it's best when you first read these 2 chapters of the Oera Linda Book (with Sandbach's translation):

This is about the Geertmen.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

NOW I WILL RELATE HOW THE GEERTMAN AND MANY FOLLOWERS OF HELLENIA CAME BACK.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bp

Scroll down till you reach this sentence:

"After we had been settled 12 times 100 and twice 12 years in the Five Waters (Punjab), whilst our naval warriors were navigating all the seas they could find, came Alexander the King, with a powerful army descending the river towards our villages."

So, if as per the OLB

They were on their way to Athens, but when they heard how things stood there they went with Geert. The sea-king of the Tyrians brought them altogether through the strait which at that time ran into the Red Sea (now re-established as the Suez Canal). At last they landed at the Punjab, called in our language the Five Rivers, because five rivers flow together to the sea. Here they settled, and called it Geertmania. The King of Tyre afterwards, seeing that all his best sailors were gone, sent all his ships with his wild soldiers to catch them, dead or alive. When they arrived at the strait, both the sea and the earth trembled. The land was upheaved so that all the water ran out of the strait, and the muddy shores were raised up like a rampart. This happened on account of the virtues of the Geertmen, as every one can plainly understand.

From which side did these people enter India?

As per above, it states that they crossed from the Mediterranean into the red Sea through a strait.

Was this strait man made or natural?

Any further information is available on this strait?

If you refer to the link there were numerous canals built by different Pharaohs to link the Mediterranean, the Nile River and the red sea.

Now, if the Frisians did use these ancient canals/straits to travel from the Mediterranean to the red sea, they would have naturally come in contact with the Egyptians.

Moreover, it s on the instructions of an Egyptian Cecrops that they forfeited their citadel and moved.

Who is this Cecrops the Egyptian??

The only Cecrops I know are kings of Athens (there were two of the same name, I & II)

These cecrops are Athenians and not Egyptians.

If The Frisians did pass Egypt in their journey down to the red sea, they would have come into contact with them and some reference would have been found in Egypt or a reference of a guy named Cecrops, who it seems, was mighty enough for the Frisians to fear, that they obeyed whatever conditions he had put forth.

From the red sea, they would have naturally sailed around the Arabian Peninsula. Naturally they would have had dealings with the natives in the Arabian Peninsula. Why isn’t there any record of the journey in the OLB?

Since this account shows that the Frisians of the OLB moved from the west into Punjab, No-ID-EA's post on the Frisians coming into India from the east is under doubt.

whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

rest of the discussion later. Oh boy, I love to nitpick a post!!

Edited May 13, 2013 by The_Spartan

[Abramelin]

He might call you a Fringe nationalist before exploring this possibility.

The mainstream denies any contact between the Greeks or any other European peoples with Indian before Alexander.

He knows what I think of the OLB....

[The_Spartan]

Just one more thing before i stop ....would you call these ancient Indians that we are discussing here as Hindus?

Lol nevermind i have already seen all that you have to offer.

No. i woudnt call all the ancient Indians as Hindus. it is you who fix that label on them. not me.

and you arent worth even the dime stuck to the gum uinder my shoe.

So, Shoo Shoo..away.....and never return back.

Edited May 13, 2013 by The_Spartan

[The Puzzler]

If the OLB is a hoax, I believe the reason for this inclusion is the new found knowledge of an Indo-European language connection.

In saying this, a language connection or genetics connection (R1b) Frisians are R1b-U106/S21 is a possible way to find that connection.

The genetics could have been bred out, be very scarce within a small area or gone by now though imo. Language however could have stayed as a language of the sailors/traders, a common language for cultures to take on, like Phoenician/alphabet became, since the Frisians were sailors too and also knew the way back and forth it seems, just as they knew where Atland was.

Edited May 13, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The_Spartan]

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar

and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way

the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .

Here, you are linking two different dynasties.

Chandragupta Maurya founded the Maurya Dynasty.

Chandragupta I is said to have founded the Gupta Dynasty.

The bolded portion in your quote above is where you are wrong.

Chandragupta I of the Gupta Dynasty married a Licchavi princess called Kumaradevi.

The Maurya Emprie was from 322 to 185 BCE.

The Gupta Empire was from 320 to 550 CE.

Two different Dynasties in two different eras. Sorry, cant link them together with a licchavi princess.

I hope you got that straight.

Edited May 13, 2013 by The_Spartan

[The_Spartan]

If the OLB is a hoax, I believe the reason for this inclusion is the new found knowledge of an Indo-European language connection.

In saying this, a language connection or genetics connection (R1b) Frisians are R1b-U106/S21 is a possible way to find that connection.

The genetics could have been bred out, be very scarce within a small area or gone by now though imo. Language however could have stayed as a language of the sailors/traders, a common language for cultures to take on, like Phoenician/alphabet became, since the Frisians were sailors too and also knew the way back and forth it seems, just as they knew where Atland was.

If they knew whwere it was, is the location stated in the OLB? (i havent read OLB fully ,therefore i am asking)

Other than in the OLB (and in the works of Olaus Rudbeck in the 18th century), Was the name Atland in use medieveal times ?

[NO-ID-EA]

From which side did these people enter India?

As per above, it states that they crossed from the Mediterranean into the red Sea through a strait.

Was this strait man made or natural?

Any further information is available on this strait?

If you refer to the link there were numerous canals built by different Pharaohs to link the Mediterranean, the Nile River and the red sea.

Now, if the Frisians did use these ancient canals/straits to travel from the Mediterranean to the red sea, they would have naturally come in contact with the Egyptians.

Moreover, it s on the instructions of an Egyptian Cecrops that they forfeited their citadel and moved.

Who is this Cecrops the Egyptian??

The only Cecrops I know are kings of Athens (there were two of the same name, I & II)

These cecrops are Athenians and not Egyptians.

If The Frisians did pass Egypt in their journey down to the red sea, they would have come into contact with them and some reference would have been found in Egypt or a reference of a guy named Cecrops, who it seems, was mighty enough for the Frisians to fear, that they obeyed whatever conditions he had put forth.

From the red sea, they would have naturally sailed around the Arabian Peninsula. Naturally they would have had dealings with the natives in the Arabian Peninsula. Why isn’t there any record of the journey in the OLB?

Since this account shows that the Frisians of the OLB moved from the west into Punjab, No-ID-EA's post on the Frisians coming into India from the east is under doubt.

rest of the discussion later. Oh boy, I love to nitpick a post!!

Actually you are right Spartan..........You think in your head you know something , until someone questions you on it ....go back to confirm it , and find it is

different than you remembered it .........

Biwester Pungab ther sind tha YRA , jeftha WRANGA , tha GEDROSTNE , jeftha BRITNE , and tha ORJETTEN , jeftha URJETNE , ol thisa noma sind-er thruch tha nydige prestera jevan .........( i have only highlighted these names because the OLB says they are the names given by the Indian priests ....So they could be in the Indian language , and may be names of known tribes ? but translated wrongly by Sandbach)

Translation :- To the West of the Punjab are the Yren ( Iranians ) or the morose ( Drangianen ), The Gedrosiers , or runnaways , and the forgotten , all these names are given by the nasty priests..... because they fled from their customs and ritual (religions ).....On their arrival our forefathers likewise sat on the East side over from the Punjab , but because of the same priests , they too moved to the West of Punjab .

So the only info we have is they originally went somewhere on the East of Punjab , but have no idea how far East and then moved West of the Punjab

Unfortunately there is no info as to whether the strait was natural or man made

OLB actually intimates that it was the Tyrian Sailors ( that changed sides because they were of frisian blood ) that guided them through the straits.

The two Cecrops Kings are said to be of Athens , however Greek Thebes is just up the road could there be some confusion here ? or did Egyptian Thebes have a colony ,of which he was ruler , he must have had powerful connections to command Tyrians to come to a war in Greece ,

Edited May 13, 2013 by NO-ID-EA

[The_Spartan]

you stated that the frisians entered India through the east.

I note what you say about Bactria but as far as i know Bactria was a seperate kingdom and not part of India , whereas OLB says the fris entered India in the East , but because of harassment from Priests ( presume Brahmins ) they moved further West and settled in the Punjab . so i presume this is where i should look for them first , but 1200 years is a very long time and they could have moved , interbred with natives , died out or possibly thrived as a seperate clan .

But the OLB text says that they entered Punjab from the west after travelling through an ancient “strait” from the Mediterranean into the Red Sea and sailing around the Arabian peninsula and arriving in the Pujab Area. Refer to the OLB text in the quote below :

When he saw that with his people he could not storm our wall, he sent messengers to Tyre. Thereupon there arrived three hundred ships full of wild mountain soldiers, which sailed unexpectedly into our haven while we were defending the walls. When they had taken our harbour, the wild soldiers wanted to plunder the village and our ships—one had already ravished a girl—but Cecrops would not permit it; and the Tyrian sailors, who still had Frisian blood in their veins, said, If you do that we will burn our ships, and you shall never see your mountains again. Cecrops, who had no inclination towards murder or devastation, sent messengers to Geert, requiring her to give up the citadel, offering her free exit with all her live and dead property, and her followers the same. The wisest of the citizens, seeing that they could not hold the citadel, advised Geert to accept at once, before Cecrops became furious and changed his mind. Three months afterwards Geert departed with the best of Frya’s sons, and seven times twelve ships. Soon after they had left the harbour they fell in with at least thirty ships coming from Tyre with women and children. They were on their way to Athens, but when they heard how things stood there they went with Geert. The sea-king of the Tyrians brought them altogether through the strait which at that time ran into the Red Sea (now re-established as the Suez Canal). At last they landed at the Punjab, called in our language the Five Rivers, because five rivers flow together to the sea. Here they settled, and called it Geertmania. The King of Tyre afterwards, seeing that all his best sailors were gone, sent all his ships with his wild soldiers to catch them, dead or alive. When they arrived at the strait, both the sea and the earth trembled. The land was upheaved so that all the water ran out of the strait, and the muddy shores were raised up like a rampart. This happened on account of the virtues of the Geertmen, as every one can plainly understand.

Link

And you had stated that

One name that sounds like Frisii is the Vrijji (Pali..Vajji ) so thats a start........ Encyclopedia Brittanica says about them , they were a confederation of licchavis and the people of bihar and were prominant from the 6th century BC to the 4th C CE and that they were an Aristocratic republic . ........Gautama Buddha is said to have modelled the organisational structure of his monastic order ..(Sangha ) on the governmental structure of the Vrijji...........I will need to try to find out what was different in the way the Vrijji organised their government...............Brittanica also says the marriage of Chandragupta to a licchavi princess helped him establish the foundation of the Mauryan Dynasty..........but it does not say how this helped , so maybe knowing more about the licchavi will throw some light on this .

You brought the idea of Frisa being simi.ar to Vrijja/Vajji/Licchavi, of Bihar. Bihar is towards the east in India and nowhere close to Punjab. Try using a normal atlas or a map to see how far are Punjab and Bihar from each other.

You stated that Chandragupta married a Licchavi princess and this union helped him in establishing the Mauryan Dynasty, and I corrected to you informing that Chandragputa Maurya and Chandragupta I (who married the Licchavi princess) were two different persons from two different eras).

The whole premise of your post is wrong:

• You stated that the Frisians entered India from the east, when the OLB clearly states that they entered Punjab from the west.
  
• You bring in word play or linguistics gymnastics to link the Frisians to Vrijja to Vajji to Licchavi and say that they were strong in Bihar etc.
  
• You state that Chandragupta I (founder of the Gupta Dynasty) married a Licchavi princess and established the Maurya Dynasty while it was Chandragupta Maurya who established the Maurya Dynasty and that too in an earlier era.
  

Anything to state??

[Abramelin]

If they knew whwere it was, is the location stated in the OLB? (i havent read OLB fully ,therefore i am asking)

Other than in the OLB (and in the works of Olaus Rudbeck in the 18th century), Was the name Atland in use medieveal times ?

The original word is "Aldland" which was shortened by the sailors who visited it into "Atland". Aldland means "Old Land", and is still in use among the modern Frisians (Atlan).

And this is all the OLB mentions or suggests where Aldland was located and by whom it was inhabited:

In early times almost all the Finda lived together in their native land, which was called Aldland, and is now submerged. They were thus far away, and we had no wars. When they were driven hitherwards, and appeared as robbers, then arose the necessity of defending ourselves, and we had armies, kings, and wars.

===

Aldland, called by the seafaring people, Atland, disappeared, and the wild waves rose so high over hill and dale that everything was buried in the sea.

===

About a Finda people (the Fryans called that tribe the Finns, their priests were called Magiar):

One hundred and one years after the submersion of Aldland a people came out of the East.

===

Punjab, that is five rivers, and by which we travel, is a river of extraordinary beauty, and is called Five Rivers, because four other streams flow into the sea by its mouth. Far away to the eastward is another large river, the Holy or Sacred Ganges. Between these two rivers is the land of the Hindoos. Both rivers run from the high mountains to the plains. The mountains in which their sources lie are so high that they reach the heavens, and therefore these mountains are called Himmellaia. Among the Hindoos and others out of these countries there are people who meet together secretly. They believe that they are pure children of Finda, and that Finda was born in the Himmellaia mountains, whence she went with her children to the lowlands. Some of them believe that she, with her children, floated down upon the foam of the Ganges, and that that is the reason why the river is called the Sacred Ganges.

===

When they were ready they began to disagree. Teunis wished to sail through the straits to the Middle Sea, and enter the service of the rich Egyptian king, as he had done before, but Inka said he had had enough of all those Finda’s people. Inka thought that perchance some high-lying part of Atland might remain as an island, where he and his people might live in peace. As the two cousins could not agree, Teunis planted a red flag on the shore, and Inka a blue flag. Every man could choose which he pleased, and to their astonishment the greater part of the Finns and Magyars followed Inka, who had objected to serve the kings of Finda’s people. When they had counted the people and divided the ships accordingly, the fleet separated. We shall hear of Teunis afterwards, but nothing more of Inka.

=====

When you combine all these quotes, then you get two possible locations for Aldland:

- It was far away from the Fryans who lived in Europe, so it could not have been somewhere in the North Sea, as is always suggested.

- Aldland was the homeland of the Finda.

- 101 years after Aldland, the home of the Finda, submerged, a Finda tribe (Finns) came from the east.

- Among the Hindus lived a people who claimed to be pure descendants of Finda,who was borne in the Himalaya.

All this suggests Aldland was located somewhere in Asia. I thought it was the Pamir Plateau that, according to some in the 19th century, was the location of Paradise/Eden and was once flooded (THE Flood) when the Tarim Basin - of which some thought had once been an inland sea - emptied during heavy earthquakes. What I understood from geology is that this never happened.

But the story of Inka and Teunis suggests it was located somewhere in the Atlantic, because Teunis entered the Middle Sea to go to Egypt, and Inka went the other way. Or it is a "Columbus" story who went to the west to search for Asia/Paradise. As I have shown in the other OLB thread, C thought that Paradise was located in SE Asia.

What I think is quite telling is that we do not read one single word about what happened on Aldland when it was still above water. Not even as some legend told among the Finda.

.

Edited May 14, 2013 by Abramelin

[NO-ID-EA]

you stated that the frisians entered India through the east.

But the OLB text says that they entered Punjab from the west after travelling through an ancient “strait” from the Mediterranean into the Red Sea and sailing around the Arabian peninsula and arriving in the Pujab Area. Refer to the OLB text in the quote below :

Link

And you had stated that

You brought the idea of Frisa being simi.ar to Vrijja/Vajji/Licchavi, of Bihar. Bihar is towards the east in India and nowhere close to Punjab. Try using a normal atlas or a map to see how far are Punjab and Bihar from each other.

You stated that Chandragupta married a Licchavi princess and this union helped him in establishing the Mauryan Dynasty, and I corrected to you informing that Chandragputa Maurya and Chandragupta I (who married the Licchavi princess) were two different persons from two different eras).

The whole premise of your post is wrong:

• You stated that the Frisians entered India from the east, when the OLB clearly states that they entered Punjab from the west.
  
• You bring in word play or linguistics gymnastics to link the Frisians to Vrijja to Vajji to Licchavi and say that they were strong in Bihar etc.
  
• You state that Chandragupta I (founder of the Gupta Dynasty) married a Licchavi princess and established the Maurya Dynasty while it was Chandragupta Maurya who established the Maurya Dynasty and that too in an earlier era.
  

Anything to state??

Anything to state ?..........Yes of course i have..........as i said in post 1 , i have only just started to find out what i can about who they may have been whilst in India

and i am only just starting to learn about Indian history , which is why i will be grateful for any input from people that know more than me, (including Harsh Patel

and any one else that has anything relevant to say ) .........my post #17 tells you that on re-reading , the OLB only actually says they settled at first East of Punjab, and not how far East.

so you are right that my saying they landed on the East side of India was misunderstood by me, not precise enough .......hopefully that has now been corrected.

Re Chandragupta Maurya , and Chandragupta 1 ............Wiki talking about Chandragupta 1 ( 320 CE ), clearly states he married a Licchavi princess , i do not dispute that , it is what it says ......

www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/633354/vrijji

Encyclopaedia Britannica also clearly states " In the 4th century BCE the marriage of Chandragupta to a Licchavi princess helped establish the Mauryan dynasty "

please note the words 4th century BCE............have you written to them asking if they have anything to state ?

I am asking for some help here in this thread Spartan , maybe some ideas of places where i might find information for further investigation , whilst i accept

criticism will also help me , hopefully it will not be the be all and end all of your contribution , as many on this board obviously value your knowledge .

Edited May 14, 2013 by NO-ID-EA

[Abramelin]

THIS IS ABOUT THE GEERTMEN.

(...)

The wisest of the citizens, seeing that they could not hold the citadel, advised Geert to accept at once, before Cecrops became furious and changed his mind. Three months afterwards Geert departed with the best of Frya’s sons, and seven times twelve ships. Soon after they had left the harbour they fell in with at least thirty ships coming from Tyre with women and children. They were on their way to Athens, but when they heard how things stood there they went with Geert. The sea-king of the Tyrians brought them altogether through the strait which at that time ran into the Red Sea. At last they landed at the Punjab, called in our language the Five Rivers, because five rivers flow together to the sea. Here they settled, and called it Geertmania.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

Geertmania would be Carmania, west of the Punjab:

Carmania (Old Persian Karmanâ): name of a region in ancient Iran, between the heartland of Persia and Gedrosia.

(...)

Alexander arrived in Carmania from the east; he and his men had traveled through the Gedrosian desert, which had cost many people their lives. When the Macedonian soldiers reached southern Carmania, they found food again ('all crops were born in abundance, except for olives', according to Alexander's admiral Nearchus). Consequently, Greek and Roman geographers wrote that Carmania was extremely fertile, which is exaggerated.

http://www.livius.org/cao-caz/carmania/carmania.html

[The_Spartan]

The statement by Brittanica is wrong.

Chandragupta Maurya of the Maurya Dynasty NEVER DID did marry a Licchavi princess.

Chandragupta I of the Gupta Dyansty DID MARRY a princess of Lichhavi confederation.

Ask any Indian Historian.

Brittanica is worng in this aspect. Damn sure.

The onus is on you to prove that Chandragupta Maurya DID MARRY a Licchavi princess, because you made the statement.

I am trying to help you by pointing out the wrongs you have stated.

I am sorry, i am sort of quite blunt in debates. If someone states something wrong, i say it as it is.

I will try to tone down my bluntness.

But i once again state that the points i have raised are valid.

[Abramelin]

Spartan, how do you pronounce "Vrijji" ? Like "Vreeyee" maybe?

[The_Spartan]

Spartan, how do you pronounce "Vrijji" ? Like "Vreeyee" maybe?

You pronounce it as Vri - ggie- like the ggie in veggie

[The Puzzler]

THIS IS ABOUT THE GEERTMEN.

(...)

The wisest of the citizens, seeing that they could not hold the citadel, advised Geert to accept at once, before Cecrops became furious and changed his mind. Three months afterwards Geert departed with the best of Frya’s sons, and seven times twelve ships. Soon after they had left the harbour they fell in with at least thirty ships coming from Tyre with women and children. They were on their way to Athens, but when they heard how things stood there they went with Geert. The sea-king of the Tyrians brought them altogether through the strait which at that time ran into the Red Sea. At last they landed at the Punjab, called in our language the Five Rivers, because five rivers flow together to the sea. Here they settled, and called it Geertmania.

http://oeralinda.angelfire.com/#bc

Geertmania would be Carmania, west of the Punjab:

Carmania (Old Persian Karmanâ): name of a region in ancient Iran, between the heartland of Persia and Gedrosia.

(...)

Alexander arrived in Carmania from the east; he and his men had traveled through the Gedrosian desert, which had cost many people their lives. When the Macedonian soldiers reached southern Carmania, they found food again ('all crops were born in abundance, except for olives', according to Alexander's admiral Nearchus). Consequently, Greek and Roman geographers wrote that Carmania was extremely fertile, which is exaggerated.

http://www.livius.or...a/carmania.html

The history of human settlements in the territory of Kerman dates back to the 4th millennium BC. This area is considered as one of the ancient regions of Iran and valuable historical vestiges have been discovered here. Jiroft is an example, where a previously unknown settlement dating back to around 2500BC has just been established by archeologists. Kerman has an abundance of historical sites and landmarks, 283 in total, according to Iran's Cultural Heritage Organization. Ancient abandoned citadels such as Arg-é Bam and Rayen castle have been preserved in the desert for two thousand years.

Historical documents refer to Kerman as "Karmania" (in Ancient greek Καρμανία), "Kermania", "Germania", "Carmonia", and "Žermanya", which means bravery and combat. Geographers have recorded Kerman's ancient name as "Go'asheer"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kerm%C4%81n_Province

Bronze Age flag from area