The Guilt Trip

[Bluefinger]

no doubt our civilisation will too blue, but I don't think we're ready for the fall JUST yet.

it seems that most conflict these days is motivated by religion, and to a lesser extent, greed, rather than our vices, because religion, by definition, is intolerant, whereas our vices only affect those in our general vicinity, as opposed to the global conflict that religion engenders.

I disagree. Put politics and anything together and you have a recipe for disaster. It's not because anything is bad. It's because politics is untrustworthy. And it's untrustworthy because people typically tend to use that much power for their own personal gain, often at the expense of many.

Now, politics and religion is no different than the Democrats and the minorities. It's a campaign slogan. It garnishes the vote (or loyalty in the case of the monarchy.) Religion is always at its worst when paired with politics because demagogues always know how to twist it for their own bloodthirsty reasons. Same with ideologies.

It has been the human flaw from the get-go. I don't know how many more atrocities the world will have to endure for all of us to finally grasp that reality.

[Arbitran]

'Tell you what. I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.

I think we both know that it is unreasonable to expect any sort of accurate prediction as to what precisely would happen if America's justice system were to collapse. Of course, there are those that might say that it already has... in which case, it doesn't appear that it's a significant enough problem to have caused much ado, yes? In any case, your point has yet to be made: pray tell us, what precisely would happen—remember, honestly—if America's justice system collapsed?

[Almagest]

'Tell you what. I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.

Well for one a lot less drug addicts will be victimized by the system.

[Mnemonix]

It feels that way at times.

[Grandpa Greenman]

'Tell you what. I'll ask a few questions and let's see if you answer me honestly.

If the American justice system collapsed, what would happen to America?

Remember, honestly.

I think that will prove my point.

Honestly, lol, after the after a period of looting, people getting shot, and a few lynchings, not much. Americans in general are armed to the teeth, there is a kind of unwritten law if you mess with people enough you will get shot. I have been though a couple of natural disasters where everything thing broke down for a while. People tend to organize pretty quick and jump in to defend and help each other.

[+Link of Hyrule]

In my opinion, Christianity is about honesty, not about guilt. Essentially what Christians believe is that everyone has done something that they know was wrong, but they did it anyway. Whether that be lying to someone, stealing something (even seemingly inconsequential theft - when I was a teenager, I stole a packet of chewing gum the local store when the shopkeeper wasn't watching), swearing at someone, getting into a schoolyard fight (perhaps even being the "bully", but not necessarily so), saying something deliberately hurtful to get a response, yelling at your parents/dishonouring them, partaking in illegal drugs, being selfish at the expense of someone else, or anything else you care to name.

Regardless of what Christians deem "sinful", everything I suggested above is universally considered wrong (note I didn't put anything in about premarital sex or pornography or blaspheming God, because not everyone accepts these as sinful). But we do these things anyway. Perhaps it was an accident, perhaps we didn't mean to lose our temper (for example). But we still did it. To me, that is being honest, pure and simple. Accepting that humans are not perfect. At this point we can take two roads - we can believe that God cares about how we act and maybe have wronged God by our action, or we can believe that God doesn't care how we act and/or God doesn't exist.

Christians take the view that we make mistakes, and God cares about those mistakes. He cares about it so much that he set out a punishment for those acts. And to show us how seriously he considers it, he has put in place the ultimate penalty - death. We could argue that we didn't mean to break the law, and therefore should be shown clemency. I was driving in a car with friends a few years back, when suddenly we were flagged over by the police who held a radar gun to our car. Apparently we missed the sign that declared we were travelling in a 60 zone (we were travelling at 78, in what we thought was an 80 zone - all the other cars were doing the same speed, we were just unlucky to be the ones flagged in a speed trap). The police officer still issued the fine to the driver. Apparently "we didn't mean to do it and promise not to do it in the future" didn't cut it with the authorities.

Christians also believe that God is a Just God and therefore will carry out the judgement he set out. But we also believe he is entirely Merciful, and hence has paid the penalty himself (to go back to the speeding car analogy, it would be like the police officer paying the fine himself). As a result of this, I choose to accept that and in gratitude I now devote my life to God. To share a story if you don't mind (it's based on a real event, but I don't remember names or dates, it was an analogy shared during church a few years ago) - a young man once struck it rich panning for gold. On his way into town he saw a slave auction. He saw that rich and powerful men were bidding on a particularly beautiful slave girl. Knowing what would happen to the girl if she was bought by one of them (rape) the man poured all his wealth into outbidding the men. Soon the girl was legally his. He goes up to her and says "I bought you so that I could set you free". In gratitude, the slave girl fell crying, and said "Since you set me free from slavery, I ask only that I can live to serve you".

edit: I just did some googling, came across THIS - it appears to be the story I was referring to, but it is also a second-hand account. In any case, whether the story is based in real history or whether it's just an analogy, the point remains the same

That's how I view my decision to follow God. I am honest with myself in accepting that I've done things I know I should not have done. I believe that this has a consequence (not a "guilt trip"), and because God set me free from my penalty, I choose to devote my life to serving him.

I'm sorry, I know this sounds preachy, but I'm not meaning to convert anyone, I'm just sharing what it is I believe and why I feel it is not a matter of my beliefs "guilting" me into anything. In any case, I hope it offers an answer for you from my perspective.

~ Regards, PA

Edited May 23, 2013 by Paranoid Android

[Doug1029]

And those that handed him over to be crucified as a 'heretic' were slaughtered by the hundreds of thousands, expelled from their land for about 2,000 years, and much worse.

The Great Jewish war was visited upon the Jews for their acts of rebellion, treason and sedition against Rome. The actual number killed was put at 1.1 million by Josephus with 97,000 sold into slavery. As the entire population of Judea/Israel was about two million at the time, these numbers are likely considerably exaggerated. During the seven-month siege of Jerusalem, the Romans were crucifying upwards of 500 people a day in front of the city walls. This was 40 years after the death of Jesus, so retribution was made against the children and grandchildren of those of crucified Jesus (if there even was a Jesus).

The Great Jewish War was the second rebellion (third war) against Rome. Rome was getting tired of dealing with them. Even so, they tried once again to get along with the Jews (while still occupying Judea and Israel). To keep the peace, they offered to rebuild the temple that was destroyed in 70 AD. But when Hadrian's childhood friend was murdered by Jewish rebels while returning home from the Kitos War, the promise was kept by building a temple to JUPITER on Temple Mount. The Jews considered this a breach of promise, while the Romans viewed it as just deserts for murder. Governor Tinius' administrative incompetence didn't help. either.

The result was the Bar Kochba Rebellion, after which the Romans decided to make sure that there were never any more Jewish rebellions and ordered Jerusalem emptied and the population dispersed. This was a century after Jesus' death. Retribution fell not on those who had persecuted Jesus, but on their great grandchildren and great great grandchildren. That's the diaspora.

The Jews didn't give up easily, though. They continued fighting against Rome through four more wars as volunteers in other armies. With each war, hopes of Jewish independence grew dimmer and were finally expunged.

There were two attempts to revive Jewish independence. The Crusader states were such an attempt, but were little more than badly-camouflaged imperialism that depended for survival on armies supplied by the west. The modern state of Israel is much the same, essentially a Crusader state created by British imperialism and kept alive by American imperialism and weapons (Shells fired in the recent Gaza violence had the words "Made in America" stamped on the casings, leaving little doubt about who is the protagonists really are.). American involvement is encouraged by the religious right in hopes that this way the second coming can be made to happen. Christianity is a warlike religion, essentially a death cult gone mad.

It would seem that your god does not like to punish the perpetrators, but prefers to attack their defenseless descendents.

Doug

Edited May 23, 2013 by Doug1029

[Grandpa Greenman]

Here is the thing a Abrahamic paths you got one chance at this. As my Druid mentor tells me it is a religion about death, not life. The idea someone had to be nailed to a cross to free people from sins done by people thousands of years ago is honestly kind of sick.

Were in Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism and most eastern paths is you have rebirth and you get another try. If you mess that one up you can give it another go and that goes on until you get it right.They are all about life and rebirth. With Paganism if you're not hurting anyone you are free to live as please. That doesn't mean you can go out and steal or shoot people, because that causes harm. If your gay, fine what you do in bed and who you love is your business. If you and your wife want an open marriage as long as everyone agrees then no harm done. When you cause harm then you must pay for that. You put out negative energy then you get negative energy back. It is just common sense.

Law is not handed down my some sky being it something we use as a tool to organize our societies. Using religion to shame people to obeying your concept of behavior of who you can love or not eating pork or going around in a burka then you are causing harm and hard stepping someones civil rights.

I am not telling anyone what to believe or what religion they should follow. If you want to go around thinking some poor guy had to be tortured and murdered so you can relieve yourself of wrongs done by people you never meet or it well absolve you from your past behavior, knock yourself out. I'm not getting on that train. I hold myself responsible for what I do and to make things right if I mess up. I don't need a god and a guilt trip to help me with that.

[+Link of Hyrule]

I don't need a god and a guilt trip to help me with that.

I don't need one of those two things.

[Mikko-kun]

There's religion.

There's ideas that are compiled to a religion.

And then there's a big community of people calling themselves "religion of this and that" and interpreting those ideas in veeeeery different ways, often claiming they got it right.

The last one of those three, I tend to distance myself from, because I think for myself, by myself. The second one of those three, I tend to take into account and pick what seems to fit the big puzzle, give it a chance or something like that. The first, I dont know what it is, religion. Is religion what people who indoctrinate it says, is it what's in the book, or is it what the book describes? Those three are not always the same.

[White Crane Feather]

no doubt our civilisation will too blue, but I don't think we're ready for the fall JUST yet.

it seems that most conflict these days is motivated by religion, and to a lesser extent, greed, rather than our vices, because religion, by definition, is intolerant, whereas our vices only affect those in our general vicinity, as opposed to the global conflict that religion engenders.

Even then, much of the conflict surrounding our vices surrounds the attempt to control our vices.

[White Crane Feather]

In my opinion, Christianity is about honesty, not about guilt. Essentially what Christians believe is that everyone has done something that they know was wrong, but they did it anyway. Whether that be lying to someone, stealing something (even seemingly inconsequential theft - when I was a teenager, I stole a packet of chewing gum the local store when the shopkeeper wasn't watching), swearing at someone, getting into a schoolyard fight (perhaps even being the "bully", but not necessarily so), saying something deliberately hurtful to get a response, yelling at your parents/dishonouring them, partaking in illegal drugs, being selfish at the expense of someone else, or anything else you care to name.

Regardless of what Christians deem "sinful", everything I suggested above is universally considered wrong (note I didn't put anything in about premarital sex or pornography or blaspheming God, because not everyone accepts these as sinful). But we do these things anyway. Perhaps it was an accident, perhaps we didn't mean to lose our temper (for example). But we still did it. To me, that is being honest, pure and simple. Accepting that humans are not perfect. At this point we can take two roads - we can believe that God cares about how we act and maybe have wronged God by our action, or we can believe that God doesn't care how we act and/or God doesn't exist.

Christians take the view that we make mistakes, and God cares about those mistakes. He cares about it so much that he set out a punishment for those acts. And to show us how seriously he considers it, he has put in place the ultimate penalty - death. We could argue that we didn't mean to break the law, and therefore should be shown clemency. I was driving in a car with friends a few years back, when suddenly we were flagged over by the police who held a radar gun to our car. Apparently we missed the sign that declared we were travelling in a 60 zone (we were travelling at 78, in what we thought was an 80 zone - all the other cars were doing the same speed, we were just unlucky to be the ones flagged in a speed trap). The police officer still issued the fine to the driver. Apparently "we didn't mean to do it and promise not to do it in the future" didn't cut it with the authorities.

Christians also believe that God is a Just God and therefore will carry out the judgement he set out. But we also believe he is entirely Merciful, and hence has paid the penalty himself (to go back to the speeding car analogy, it would be like the police officer paying the fine himself). As a result of this, I choose to accept that and in gratitude I now devote my life to God. To share a story if you don't mind (it's based on a real event, but I don't remember names or dates, it was an analogy shared during church a few years ago) - a young man once struck it rich panning for gold. On his way into town he saw a slave auction. He saw that rich and powerful men were bidding on a particularly beautiful slave girl. Knowing what would happen to the girl if she was bought by one of them (rape) the man poured all his wealth into outbidding the men. Soon the girl was legally his. He goes up to her and says "I bought you so that I could set you free". In gratitude, the slave girl fell crying, and said "Since you set me free from slavery, I ask only that I can live to serve you".

edit: I just did some googling, came across THIS - it appears to be the story I was referring to, but it is also a second-hand account. In any case, whether the story is based in real history or whether it's just an analogy, the point remains the same

That's how I view my decision to follow God. I am honest with myself in accepting that I've done things I know I should not have done. I believe that this has a consequence (not a "guilt trip"), and because God set me free from my penalty, I choose to devote my life to serving him.

I'm sorry, I know this sounds preachy, but I'm not meaning to convert anyone, I'm just sharing what it is I believe and why I feel it is not a matter of my beliefs "guilting" me into anything. In any case, I hope it offers an answer for you from my perspective.

~ Regards, PA

The only hole in the Christ story, is that god/Jesus didn't really die and suffer the 'penalty'. Jesus was resurrected and is in heaven waiting, while I will suffer enternal death because I CAN'T not WON'T believe the that Jesus is the one and only god incarnate. He was only out cold for what... A couple days?

This Christian belief that Jesus was somehow sacrificed never made much sense to me. One Christian tells me jesus was a man and did not want to die while being a godman knowing he would die and be resurrected, while another tells me Jesus's sacrifice was that he was god but now must know what it's like to be a wretched human for eternity.

I so much prefer the more plausible and noble likelyhood that Jesus was a man and died for his principals. All the mythology and hoopla that springs up around a heroic act seems to take away from the true moral and beauty if a man and his story.

[Doug1029]

I so much prefer the more plausible and noble likelyhood that Jesus was a man and died for his principals. All the mythology and hoopla that springs up around a heroic act seems to take away from the true moral and beauty if a man and his story.

That is, of course, if there actually was a Jesus.

It is reasonable to assume there was an iterant preacher/healer in Galilee who gave rise to the original story. There is no direct evidence of this, but there is some circumstantial evidence that would seem to confirm it. So a "historical Jesus" is plausible.

There are some early Christian writings that make a fairly good case for the existence of John the Apostle. Where there was a student, there must have been a teacher. He is the key here. Without him, there is no "historical Jesus." In the writings of Papias, a man who may or may not have existed, is a reference to "the daughters of Philip." So there may have been an apostle named Philip. There is enough to suggest that someone more-or-less analogous to Paul actually lived, but the story we have appears to be a conflation of at least two, maybe three, historical people.

And that's it. There is nothing in history to suggest that Jesus was divine. There are no historical references to any of the four gospels before Theophlius of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before he died (180 AD). There is good reason to believe that Justin the Martyr quoted from the Book of Matthew about 151 AD, but quotations are tricky -- you never know for sure which is the quotation and which is the original, or whether both are quoting some unknown writer.

And then there is the Christian tradition of intentional lying, harkening back to Eusebius' famous comment that "lying in the service of God is no sin."

So. Believe on the basis of faith alone. Or don't believe at all. History cannot help.

Doug

[White Crane Feather]

That is, of course, if there actually was a Jesus.

It is reasonable to assume there was an iterant preacher/healer in Galilee who gave rise to the original story. There is no direct evidence of this, but there is some circumstantial evidence that would seem to confirm it. So a "historical Jesus" is plausible.

There are some early Christian writings that make a fairly good case for the existence of John the Apostle. Where there was a student, there must have been a teacher. He is the key here. Without him, there is no "historical Jesus." In the writings of Papias, a man who may or may not have existed, is a reference to "the daughters of Philip." So there may have been an apostle named Philip. There is enough to suggest that someone more-or-less analogous to Paul actually lived, but the story we have appears to be a conflation of at least two, maybe three, historical people.

And that's it. There is nothing in history to suggest that Jesus was divine. There are no historical references to any of the four gospels before Theophlius of Antioch mentioned the Book of John shortly before he died (180 AD). There is good reason to believe that Justin the Martyr quoted from the Book of Matthew about 151 AD, but quotations are tricky -- you never know for sure which is the quotation and which is the original, or whether both are quoting some unknown writer.

And then there is the Christian tradition of intentional lying, harkening back to Eusebius' famous comment that "lying in the service of God is no sin."

So. Believe on the basis of faith alone. Or don't believe at all. History cannot help.

Doug

Sure no argument here. I think there was probably Somone like Jesus. it fits enough within the context of the time. The question in my mind is if he truely a was a noble holy man or the standard cult leader. If he did consider himself god and not in the eastern mystic sense, I would lean toward the latter, if he didn't, I would lean to the prior. I rather like the teachings of Christ himself. I understand the concept of spiritual visions and the journey Jesus seems to have taken. It's something to read and listen to wether the product of many spiritual people or one man 2000 years ago.

[Doug1029]

The question in my mind is if he truely a was a noble holy man or the standard cult leader. If he did consider himself god and not in the eastern mystic sense, I would lean toward the latter, if he didn't, I would lean to the prior.

That is something we'll never know. Beyond the conflated stories of the Bible, there is no record whatever that Jesus ever said or did anything. All we have to fill in the gaps is speculation.

I rather like the teachings of Christ himself.

"I like your Christ. It's your Christians I can't stand." --Ghandi

I understand the concept of spiritual visions and the journey Jesus seems to have taken. It's something to read and listen to wether the product of many spiritual people or one man 2000 years ago.

Many people from many faiths have taken spiritual journeys and continue to this day. But that's a separate issue. One does not need a Jesus, a Mohammed or a Buddha to take a spiritual journey. One does not even need a God.

Doug

[+Link of Hyrule]

The only hole in the Christ story, is that god/Jesus didn't really die and suffer the 'penalty'. Jesus was resurrected and is in heaven waiting, while I will suffer enternal death because I CAN'T not WON'T believe the that Jesus is the one and only god incarnate. He was only out cold for what... A couple days?

This Christian belief that Jesus was somehow sacrificed never made much sense to me. One Christian tells me jesus was a man and did not want to die while being a godman knowing he would die and be resurrected, while another tells me Jesus's sacrifice was that he was god but now must know what it's like to be a wretched human for eternity.

I so much prefer the more plausible and noble likelyhood that Jesus was a man and died for his principals. All the mythology and hoopla that springs up around a heroic act seems to take away from the true moral and beauty if a man and his story.

In my opinion, Jesus the human being was crucified and died - he had feelings, emotions, and the desire for life just like any other person who has ever lived. Being divine didn't remove that element of Jesus' life. However, it was Jesus the divine was resurrected (again in my opinion). So Jesus did thoroughly and completely go through the punishment of death. At the end of the day, if you don't end up accepting Jesus, then as I believe it you will end up facing the "second death". Much like the first death, this is complete and total destruction of mind body and soul. No pain or torture, not even an awareness of Nothing. Just worm food (for lack of a better term). If this is your fate you won't be aware of it.

Many atheists believe this is exactly what will happen, often taking comfort in that belief/knowledge. I don't think it evil to believe that is the fate of those who do not accept Jesus.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Here is the thing a Abrahamic paths you got one chance at this. As my Druid mentor tells me it is a religion about death, not life. The idea someone had to be nailed to a cross to free people from sins done by people thousands of years ago is honestly kind of sick.

Were in Paganism, Buddhism, Hinduism and most eastern paths is you have rebirth and you get another try. If you mess that one up you can give it another go and that goes on until you get it right.They are all about life and rebirth. With Paganism if you're not hurting anyone you are free to live as please. That doesn't mean you can go out and steal or shoot people, because that causes harm. If your gay, fine what you do in bed and who you love is your business. If you and your wife want an open marriage as long as everyone agrees then no harm done. When you cause harm then you must pay for that. You put out negative energy then you get negative energy back. It is just common sense.

Law is not handed down my some sky being it something we use as a tool to organize our societies. Using religion to shame people to obeying your concept of behavior of who you can love or not eating pork or going around in a burka then you are causing harm and hard stepping someones civil rights.

I am not telling anyone what to believe or what religion they should follow. If you want to go around thinking some poor guy had to be tortured and murdered so you can relieve yourself of wrongs done by people you never meet or it well absolve you from your past behavior, knock yourself out. I'm not getting on that train. I hold myself responsible for what I do and to make things right if I mess up. I don't need a god and a guilt trip to help me with that.

Hi D.,

Jesus came to my rescue even though I didn't think of Him. Where was Krishna, Buddha, Brahma, Zeus, Osiris? Of all the gods, where was Shiva! I didn't even I see "Bhagavan" Nityananda. Of course I was totally surprised to see Jesus Christ -- of all the gods, why Him?? The path I was practicing at that time was so un-Christian, fundamentally speaking. Was it because I was baptized when I was a baby? I really don't know why Jesus showed up. On the other hand, I've always believed that the "Flow" was the Holy Spirit, Itself. Perhaps that innocent assumption saved me from being stuck in that Void and eventually destroyed. Thing is, Christianity didn't even compute in my "awareness" in that reality. It never crossed my mind until Christ showed up. At any rate, I was extremely happy to be out of there. BTW, the most important quality about Jesus that has stuck to my "awareness" was His "unconditional love" power or emanation, a golden radiance. I cannot stress this "love" enough. There's nothing like it.

About the guilt trip. The more I study the Bible and other Christian thoughts while comparing them to my personal encounter with Jesus Christ, the more I see human politicking in motion. One couldn't help but shake one's head at times. Absolutely, I'm not a Paulist, but if you want to know more why I'm not a Paulist, you can email me, Darkwind.

Many people seem to forget that King Solomon had MANY wives (700!!, not including concubines). King David had several wives. Did God say, "No, you can't have many wives"? According to King David (the movie), he wasn't even in love with all of his wives. On the other hand, having multiple partners can get complicated. Sin or not, romantic complications are no fun. Add aging in the mix...explosive. Again, not all Christians are Paulist, and he was the vocal coach of monogamy, even though he WAS NOT married.

"When you cause harm then you must pay for that. You put out negative energy then you get negative energy back. It is just common sense." I agree, and it's the reason why sin is part of the Christian religion. One has to atone for one's sins. Karma is the same...BUT...Jesus Christ's the only one who said, "No one can come to the Father except through me." Being forgiven doesn't mean that the poison will not run its course. Forgiveness doesn't mean that you're not going to lose something, or things for that matter.

So, what's the ultimate redeeming quality of Christianity, at least the way I see it? Mark 9:36 says it well: "What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?" I'm not here to convert anyone. You know, however, where my allegiance lies -- for a good reason. There's so much reading to do in Christianity (LOL), but the Jesus narrative makes a great deal of sense to me. Thankfully, other Christians have been quite helpful and inspiring. Most of all, the Holy Spirit is there to guide.

Yes, I understand why you're having a hard time with Christianity, Darkwind, for I was a pagan, too. I consider you a good friend, and I wouldn't be much of a friend if I were to keep my mouth shut. You also have a kind heart. So yes, the Bible has a version of "I hold myself responsible for what I do": "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone" -- JAMES 2:24. Apparently, faith in Jesus Christ is not enough. Again, we still have to pay for the consequences we awarded ourselves, speaking of carrying your own cross. You and I know that pagans have their rules and rituals. Christianity doesn't have a corner on this.

Have a good evening, D.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Hi D.,

Jesus came to my rescue even though I didn't think of Him. Where was Krishna, Buddha, Brahma, Zeus, Osiris? Of all the gods, where was Shiva! I didn't even I see "Bhagavan" Nityananda. Of course I was totally surprised to see Jesus Christ -- of all the gods, why Him?? The path I was practicing at that time was so un-Christian, fundamentally speaking. Was it because I was baptized when I was a baby? I really don't know why Jesus showed up. On the other hand, I've always believed that the "Flow" was the Holy Spirit, Itself. Perhaps that innocent assumption saved me from being stuck in that Void and eventually destroyed. Thing is, Christianity didn't even compute in my "awareness" in that reality. It never crossed my mind until Christ showed up. At any rate, I was extremely happy to be out of there. BTW, the most important quality about Jesus that has stuck to my "awareness" was His "unconditional love" power or emanation, a golden radiance. I cannot stress this "love" enough. There's nothing like it.

There is an old Buddhist saying, "If you see the Buddha, kill him." This explains way. Very shocking to people who offer

incense and worship before an image. If you have a concept in the mind

of a Buddha outside yourself, kill it, let it go. . . . Gotama Buddha

repeatedly reminded people that the experience of truth comes from

one's own mind. http://okelle.livejournal.com/167571.html

I have encountered that kind of power, emanation, but from opening the crown "Chakra" to the Universe.

About the guilt trip. The more I study the Bible and other Christian thoughts while comparing them to my personal encounter with Jesus Christ, the more I see human politicking in motion. One couldn't help but shake one's head at times. Absolutely, I'm not a Paulist, but if you want to know more why I'm not a Paulist, you can email me, Darkwind.

Many people seem to forget that King Solomon had MANY wives (700!!, not including concubines). King David had several wives. Did God say, "No, you can't have many wives"? According to King David (the movie), he wasn't even in love with all of his wives. On the other hand, having multiple partners can get complicated. Sin or not, romantic complications are no fun. Add aging in the mix...explosive. Again, not all Christians are Paulist, and he was the vocal coach of monogamy, even though he WAS NOT married.

I have read the Bible several times. I was a Christian in my youth. Thanks but I am not going to read it again. I have no need for it. I am my own guru. I really am not getting the King David reference. I did do a little walk down the polygamy trail with a couple of lesbians but I am to old for that kind of thing and I agree women are much too complicated to live with 2 of them like that, but my house was never cleaner. .

"When you cause harm then you must pay for that. You put out negative energy then you get negative energy back. It is just common sense." I agree, and it's the reason why sin is part of the Christian religion. One has to atone for one's sins. Karma is the same...BUT...Jesus Christ's the only one who said, "No one can come to the Father except through me." Being forgiven doesn't mean that the poison will not run its course. Forgiveness doesn't mean that you're not going to lose something, or things for that matter.

So, what's the ultimate redeeming quality of Christianity, at least the way I see it? Mark 9:36 says it well: "What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, yet forfeit their soul?" I'm not here to convert anyone. You know, however, where my allegiance lies -- for a good reason. There's so much reading to do in Christianity (LOL), but the Jesus narrative makes a great deal of sense to me. Thankfully, other Christians have been quite helpful and inspiring. Most of all, the Holy Spirit is there to guide.

Karma is cause and effect. All action has a consequent good or bad that is all it really means. It is how the Eastern religions explain inequality of life. Christianity explains it with original sin. The concept is lost on me.

Here is were I have issues. The whole my way or the highway, concept of the Abrahamic religions. Forgiveness from a god, for what? I haven't done anything to need forgiveness from a god. There is in lies the gult trip and the trap.

Yes, I understand why you're having a hard time with Christianity, Darkwind, for I was a pagan, too. I consider you a good friend, and I wouldn't be much of a friend if I were to keep my mouth shut. You also have a kind heart. So yes, the Bible has a version of "I hold myself responsible for what I do": "So you see, we are shown to be right with God by what we do, not by faith alone" -- JAMES 2:24. Apparently, faith in Jesus Christ is not enough. Again, we still have to pay for the consequences we awarded ourselves, speaking of carrying your own cross. You and I know that pagans have their rules and rituals. Christianity doesn't have a corner on this.

I don't really have a hard time with the Abrahamic religions, just in how it effects people with an idea you are guilty by simply being human. Especially women who are considered a notch under men in a patriarchal system. If I was going to change religion I would become a Buddhist, but I am a child of the Earth and shall ever be, my friend. Christianity is much to dark for me.

Have a good evening, D.

You too. Merry meet, merry part and merry meet again.

[Marcion Meets E. Sibyl]

Gotama Buddha repeatedly reminded people that the experience of truth comes from one's own mind.

I really am not getting the King David reference. I did do a little walk down the polygamy trail...

Karma is cause and effect. All action has a consequent good or bad that is all it really means. It is how the Eastern religions explain inequality of life. Christianity explains it with original sin. The concept is lost on me.

Here is were I have issues. The whole my way or the highway, concept of the Abrahamic religions.

I believe that the Buddha never achieved Nirvana; otherwise, he would not have returned to his physical body. Plus, being in the body would have cancelled the Nirvana definition for him. At any rate, we have to face the consequences of our decisions. With my old path (before going back to my Christian root), I ended up in the Void; I certainly don't want to visit that reality again. Therefore, my old path was a dud...but hardly wasted. I always learn from my failures. Mind you, there are people who welcome the Void and being erased. A dear friend was one.

About the King David reference. Since your thread is about religious guilt trip and you mentioned open relationship...well...compared to King Solomon and King David, what's there to be guilty about (especially if everyone agreed with the arrangement)? Is it a sin? You know the old saying: Rich people are eccentric, but the poor ones are weird... Clue #2: Jesus supped with prostitutes, tax collectors and lowlifes. On the other hand, sharing my Sweetheart with another guy? Well, it's not my style, call me Mr. Old-fashioned. To each his own, however.

Well, karma is pattern, at least that was part of my belief system when I was a Kundalini teacher/conduit, but yes, some people define karma as cause and effect. One has to atone for one's karma, at least that's the way I was taught. One way to erase it was kundalini yoga, so I once believed. Now, it's Jesus' saving grace to wipe my slate clean, rectify the negative patterns, bad programing.

"The whole my way or the highway, concept of the Abrahamic religions." You got it spot on, and it really has nothing to do with guilt trip because a "Christian" can't fake his or her feeling when it comes to Jesus. Christ is either ingrained in one's heart, or He is not. It is a phenomenon. I accept my imperfections and go from there. If it takes asking Jesus for forgiveness to see perfection or Heaven or to be with Him throughout eternity, then so be it. I've already done it in the Void. I pray The Lord's Prayer every day and night. In the end, it's not about forgiveness, it's about being guided by the Holy Spirit. Having Jesus Christ ingrained in your heart. Being "born again." Jesus Christ has already forgiven me. I know deep down that a "Christian" knows this about himself. It's part of being "born again."

I, on the other hand, do not judge you. I don't expect people to be like me, to be able to bow down to a god. Besides, I like you. You are honest and kind, at least to me. You carry yourself well. Pagan or not, you are a human being, a nice one at that.

Well, this is another deep conversation, my friend. I always appreciate talking with you. Thank you.

Have a good weekend, D.

Edited May 25, 2013 by braveone2u

[Grandpa Greenman]

The Buddha was a teacher. If he had left he would not have been able to teach. I am living with a Buddhist right know so I been learning a lot about Buddhism. I find there is much in his life that reflects my own. The Buddha was a shaman. I am not your average new age Pagan. Most of the new age stuff is garbage. I am not bragging, it is just the way it is. I can't unlearn what I have experienced and I can't explain it. It must be experienced. The Buddha got it and he got it the same way I got it. Now I have to walk my poor dog, who has been trying to get my attention. Be well my friend.

[Mr Walker]

All religions do it, the guilt trip. I don't mean your guilty because you have hurt someone or done some heinous crime. The idea you are guilty from the start, from some thing your ancestors did or some dogma you didn't follow. It all seems to come down to you're not holding your mouth right. A rock falls out of the sky and bonks you on the head. Bad karma or Gods punishment, either way it your fault, you have done something you shouldn't.

Christians do it, Muslims, Jews, Buddhist, Pagans, whatever befalls you it is something you have done. The only way to make it right is to do what it says in their little black book of spells they are selling. You have to be forgiven. Ok for what? I haven't nailed anyone to a cross, I didn't steal from the sky man's tree. I had a Pagan once tell me I was sick because I wasn't honoring my ancestors. I waited until he has something they had to operate on to lay that one back on him.

I am not going to buy it. If your God or Saviour whats to tell me to my face what I have done I should be saved or guilty about he is going to have to tell me to my face. I am not falling for your book of spells. I am not taking the guilt trip, I have gotten off at the station.

guilt is a function of our human level of self awareness. it comes form our knowledge of self/other and of consequence. Thus we feel guilty when we think or do something we know will have harmful consequence.s Thoughts don't do harm to others but they can cause harm to ourselves. Deeds definitely do harm to others. One cannot logically feel guilt for the action of any other human being unless you instigated/caused that action.

So no one need feel guilt. Do not deliberately or knowingly do harm to another or to yourslef Do not cheat lie or harm another physically or emotionally.

if you are a sociopath or a psychopath or brain damaged, you wont need to worry about guilt, but for everone else it is a normal part of life. Religions, parents, teachers, husbands/wives, friends etc., may use it for their own ends, but only you can actually know you are guilty of something or notand only you can decide if feeling guilty is reasonable. Ps the ability to liberate oneself from undeserved guilt, along with the need for vengeange, is one of the most powerful healing forces. Religions also utilise that by providing mechanisms to allow people to stop feeling guilty.

Ps I rather like the christian mechanism because it fits modern psychological understandings and restorative justice principles.

First acknowledge that you harmed another (or yourself) and admit that to your self and to them . Second explain that you are sorry (regret remorse concern all play a part in being sorry) and understand that your actions hurt them .

Third as far as possible make full restitution for the harm done. Try to restore everything to how it was before the harm occured.

Fourth promise to yourself and to the one you harmed that you will do all you can never to repeat that harm

Last ask your victim for forgiveness and, just as importantly, forgive yourself.

Some victims will forgive, some will hold onto a hurt. You can't do anything about that but you can always forgive yourself.

Edited May 25, 2013 by Mr Walker

[White Crane Feather]

The Buddha was a teacher. If he had left he would not have been able to teach. I am living with a Buddhist right know so I been learning a lot about Buddhism. I find there is much in his life that reflects my own. The Buddha was a shaman. I am not your average new age Pagan. Most of the new age stuff is garbage. I am not bragging, it is just the way it is. I can't unlearn what I have experienced and I can't explain it. It must be experienced. The Buddha got it and he got it the same way I got it. Now I have to walk my poor dog, who has been trying to get my attention. Be well my friend.

Most of the holy men of old were shaman in their own cultural contexts.

[White Crane Feather]

In my opinion, Jesus the human being was crucified and died - he had feelings, emotions, and the desire for life just like any other person who has ever lived. Being divine didn't remove that element of Jesus' life. However, it was Jesus the divine was resurrected (again in my opinion). So Jesus did thoroughly and completely go through the punishment of death. At the end of the day, if you don't end up accepting Jesus, then as I believe it you will end up facing the "second death". Much like the first death, this is complete and total destruction of mind body and soul. No pain or torture, not even an awareness of Nothing. Just worm food (for lack of a better term). If this is your fate you won't be aware of it.

Many atheists believe this is exactly what will happen, often taking comfort in that belief/knowledge. I don't think it evil to believe that is the fate of those who do not accept Jesus.

Not evil. But certainly a brand of elitism. I will never understand why some thoughtful people cling to these ideas.

I'm reminded of a program on cult leaders I saw once. This intelligent man had given up his wife to his cult leader, that he thought was Jesus. He was in tears when the interviewer asked him about it. He obviously loved his wife and loved his mangod. He was so torn. I could barely watch his pain. Cognitive dissonance is rampant in religion. I feel for the good Christians of the world.... So much so that I have retracted my thoughts that Christians are not opressed.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Seeker79

[GoldenWolf]

Not evil. But certainly a brand of elitism. I will never understand why some thoughtful people cling to these ideas.

I'm reminded of a program on cult leaders I saw once. This intelligent man had given up his wife to his cult leader, that he thought was Jesus. He was in tears when the interviewer asked him about it. He obviously loved his wife and loved his mangod. He was so torn. I could barely watch his pain. Cognitive dissonance is rampant in religion. I feel for the good Christians of the world.... So much so that I have retracted my thoughts that Christians are not opressed.

Makes me think of John 12:7

[Grandpa Greenman]

Most of the holy men of old were shaman in their own cultural contexts.

And anyone of normal intellect can do it.