why did satan get kicked out of heaven

[ellapenella]

As far as I know it was never broken...When the man saw that he could not overpower him, he touched the socket of Jacob’s hip so that his hip was wrenched as he wrestled with the man...

But essentially yes, that is exactly what is meant here... Jesus did wrestle Jacob...

How though do you know it was really really Yeshua that night and not just Jacob having a breakdown? I sensed that something was not right about him , he seemed to be in fear that his brother was going to kill him, remember? I even wondered if he and his brother had an altercation , but i don't know..His brother offered Jacob and his people or family to come and live with them.

I don't know, I thought maybe Jacob just felt a sort of guilt that haunted him for what he had done to his brother and in his own mind he became maybe paranoid that his brother's intentions was to trick him into thinking that he really was giving him a sincere invitation to live with his people , where they have built houses of brick and stone ...

I don't know , because I think maybe Jacob was a bit of a manipulator and there's really not much said about his brother other than he was a hunter , the best, and that he was a builder...and that's why the mother was upset with the brother, she said and felt that he was abandoning there way of living in tents and she didn't like that he was building houses of stone and brick...

I don't know , there's really not much to go by on the story for me to come to any real conclusions, but I don't think God harmed his hip...That's just not the God I know as creator, in fact , it's not even the way of Jesus of the bible that i know of...I question lot's of the stories in the bible , but I do get a sort of revelation of the questions i wonder about , maybe not right away but something will occur and it will relate and i get that Ah Ha about it, you know....

[ellapenella]

You've put that exactly right, or at least exactly how I see it too. The Lord's Prayer deserves meditation to comprehend it profoundly and is always best said slowly and sincerely. However, I have a memory from childhood of a nun in my Sunday school whose name escapes me but she sang the prayer so beautifully that sometimes I can find myself humming it and still hear her singing it just as she did so many years ago.

I can't recite the Lords prayer in Catholic church and feel it the same as when I'm alone saying it.I don't really go to church though , but i have...It's nice to be in a group and say it together, very powerful ,and very beautiful too

Awe, that just gave me goosebumps, when i read about the experience you shared. That's so loving, she sounds like she was a beautiful soul. As tender as she sung to you all , it truly is a more powerful thing than you little ones knew at the time ,to have in you , and in your memory...That's a nice story , I'm glad you shared that.

Edited July 1, 2013 by Reann

[libstaK]

I can't recite the Lords prayer in Catholic church and feel it the same as when I'm alone saying it.I don't really go to church though , but i have...It's nice to be in a group and say it together, very powerful ,and very beautiful too

Awe, that just gave me goosebumps, when i read about the experience you shared. That's so loving, she sounds like she was a beautiful soul. As tender as she sung to you all , it truly is a more powerful thing than you little ones knew at the time ,to have in you , and in your memory...That's a nice story , I'm glad you shared that.

Yes, it is a treasured memory, the voice of angel and she sang so simply and sincerely, in a joyful tone, not slowly like we sing Amazing Grace.

As to reciting the Lord's Prayer in Church. I am blessed with a Jesuit Priest in my local parish who gathers all the children around the altar before communion and hands the microphone to a young soul between 4 and 7 or 8 years old who then leads the congregation in the prayer with a chorus of little helpers all around the speaker - simply perfect. So I do enjoy my time at church, he also has himself a very good choir of widely mixed races - we are a multicultural country.

Christmas time, the chorus of the song Silent Night is sung in no less than seven or so languages, German, Maltese, Indonesian (?) not sure which dialect, spanish, french, croatian and I think Greek and an African dialect (again which one now escapes me) - there could be more, these are just the ones I remember, basically we sing for ages as the song sheet has a phonetic written description of what is being sung, it is very moving.

If you find a good church, it makes all the difference.

[markprice]

I wouldn't call it gossip , it was in his writings that he himself wrote...I don't even want to talk about it , it's really bad.

Alright, I think I see the problem here: Crowley did write some outrageous FICTION. He was trying to gross out his wife who was getting carried away with erotic literature obsession. Maybe he saved his marriage or maybe it backfired, IDK. It was pretty gross though. I don't want to talk about it either except for the fact that you say you believe in personal righteous judgement...then you better have your facts straight if you want to avoid hypocrisy. Jesus allegedly respected Moses who was far worse than Crowley(genocide and mass child rape), and that is not supposed to be fiction.

[Etu Malku]

Alright, I think I see the problem here: Crowley did write some outrageous FICTION. He was trying to gross out his wife who was getting carried away with erotic literature obsession. Maybe he saved his marriage or maybe it backfired, IDK. It was pretty gross though. I don't want to talk about it either except for the fact that you say you believe in personal righteous judgement...then you better have your facts straight if you want to avoid hypocrisy. Jesus allegedly respected Moses who was far worse than Crowley(genocide and mass child rape), and that is not supposed to be fiction.

There is absolutely no evidence that either Moses or Jesus lived . . . whereas there is overwhelming evidence that Crowley did. I find the inability to separate fact from fiction to be almost a requirement of Christianity.

[ChloeB]

There is absolutely no evidence that either Moses or Jesus lived . . . whereas there is overwhelming evidence that Crowley did. I find the inability to separate fact from fiction to be almost a requirement of Christianity.

My friend and I were talking, and she was saying how it seems most of the patients that come in where she works suffering from psychosis and religious preoccupation seem to be always connected to Christianity specifically.

[ChloeB]

No you're wrong about crowley.... I could care less about your UN-belief in a creator, doesn't make me wrong about what atheist is though...pretty much you all are atheists..Certainly you don't really believe in a spirit being that slithered down a tree in the garden of Eden...Hopefully you do know it's all an allegory...And so , there is no entity that you care to place on high that ever was in the garden that gave wisdom to anyone . They knew one another was all....And so without your entity, what is your religion based on ? Oh , yeah , in that you will become god? HA! rubbish.

Why are you stuck on a need to have an entity to place on high? I mean really, people act like they need some moral eye in the sky or the world would go crazy from lack of immorality, well how's that working out for us? Because it is glaringly obvious from history that people can justify anything in the name of their god, anything. Believing they have god behind it just makes it more powerful in the minds of mankind.

[Jor-el]

I'm sorry I forgot you believe in make-believe beings.

Typical absent father . . . tsk tsk tsk

I believe the Christian bible even announces that it is Satan who rules the earth. You ineffable excuses mean nothing to me, that is too easy of a way out.

But I don't care about what books of fairytales have to say, I like evidences and truths.

IMO when we (mankind) begin to realize that what we call god is really a thought-form/meme that we have created in order to produce answers to difficult questions, then this will be when we start to look at the world/universe/existence as it should be.

In Luciferianism we have what is like the Monad, except that each of us have an individual Monad that upon reflection of itself duality is created and the 'fall' begins down into an eventual material form. This has been described poetically as the Fall of Lucifer and that which is hubris. But, in Luciferian philosophy it is the desire for the Higher Self to know another self, and to assist the Fallen back on their way to apotheosis. Lucifer is a Principle of Compassion, Spiritual Freedom, and Enlightenment.

In Jewish and Gnostic mysticism the Fall was the result of an imbalanced and imperfect Tree of Life, created by an imbalanced and imperfect creator. In this paradigm the Sons of Darkness strive to continue the Fall of the imperfect Tree in order for a new and perfect Tree to be created.

So says you . . .

Welcome to Life . . . where YOU are the Master of your own destiny, not someone else, not some fictional being . . . YOU.

Ineffable logic . . . boo, hiss, phooey!

The afterlife . . . nothing ends, it transfers its energy. Here lies a Principle all throughout the Universe. It makes sense to use it for the afterlife as well. Death is not an end but it is a transformation. The Egyptians used the cycle of Ouroboros: Maat/Order - Apep/Chaos - Khepri/Transformation - Maat/Order etc.

You're Raving Mad! Take the Kool Aid Pill . . . .

I reject your stance, because it is vainglorious of the self where the true path is not within ourselves, it is gift of grace. However... you are certainly free to follow the path that seems most correct to you, but I also am a great believer in karma, that which we sow eventually comes back to us...

You can reject the existence of God and even of the spiritual world, but the more I see of this world, the more I see a reflection of a reality that is based on falsehood and illusion... and ignorance of the real world beyond.

I have willingly chosen to follow God and at the end of my journey He will be there to meet me...

[Beckys_Mom]

Christ be with me,Christ within me,Christ behind me, Christ before me,Christ beside me, Christ to win me,Christ to comfort and restore me,Christ beneath me, Christ above me, Christ to quite, Christ in danger,Christ in hearts of all that love me,Christ in mouth of friend and stranger...

Now there's a blast from the past..They used to get us to sing those words in our school choir...

We sang it like this....

Christ Be Beside Me

Christ be beside me, Christ be before me,

Christ be behind me, King of my heart.

Christ be within me, Christ be below me,

Christ be above me, never to part.

Christ on my right hand, Christ on my left hand,

Christ all around me, shield in the strife.

Christ in my sleeping, Christ in my sitting,

Christ in my rising, light of my heart.

Christ be in all hearts thinking about me,

Christ be on all tongues telling of me.

Christ be the vision in eyes that see me

Good gravy, I thought I'd never see that hymn again...When it came to the - King of my heart..I used to sing out of tune..I haven't a note in my head ..I couldn't sing to save myself... I was only in the school choir because I mimicked the girls voice beside me when they walked around to pick members for the choir. I cheated my way in. Just like I plan to when I go to heaven..

Edited July 1, 2013 by Beckys_Mom

[Jor-el]

How though do you know it was really really Yeshua that night and not just Jacob having a breakdown? I sensed that something was not right about him , he seemed to be in fear that his brother was going to kill him, remember? I even wondered if he and his brother had an altercation , but i don't know..His brother offered Jacob and his people or family to come and live with them.

I don't know, I thought maybe Jacob just felt a sort of guilt that haunted him for what he had done to his brother and in his own mind he became maybe paranoid that his brother's intentions was to trick him into thinking that he really was giving him a sincere invitation to live with his people , where they have built houses of brick and stone ...

I don't know , because I think maybe Jacob was a bit of a manipulator and there's really not much said about his brother other than he was a hunter , the best, and that he was a builder...and that's why the mother was upset with the brother, she said and felt that he was abandoning there way of living in tents and she didn't like that he was building houses of stone and brick...

I don't know , there's really not much to go by on the story for me to come to any real conclusions, but I don't think God harmed his hip...That's just not the God I know as creator, in fact , it's not even the way of Jesus of the bible that i know of...I question lot's of the stories in the bible , but I do get a sort of revelation of the questions i wonder about , maybe not right away but something will occur and it will relate and i get that Ah Ha about it, you know....

Jacob was a very strong individual emotionally, a lot more would be needed for him to break down and hallucinate something so clearly, especially if he had a limp because of it for the rest of his life.

Genesis 32:24-32

³⁰ So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

³¹ The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. ³² Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

You do know that Jacob had his name changed by God in that encounter, he was never again called Jacob, He was called Israel, “he who strives with God.” I think that says it all, on whether we are talking of an hallucination or a breakdown of some sort.

People seem to have this very strange idea about Jesus and God, that there is only love there and nothing else. There is also justice and there is also vengeance.

It is Jesus who will completely and utterly annihilate thousands of people who take the mark of the beast at his second coming...

Revelation 19:11-21

¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ¹³ He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. ¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. ¹⁶ On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Be realistic in your approach to God...

One last thing, this event changed Jacob completely... because of it God could start his work in Jacobs life...

[spiritualghosthaunting]

braveone2u, that sounds exactly like Satanism. Not all Satanists believe in Satan but they do believe that material goods are important to have to show one's power in the manipulation of energies of this world. It's about money, sex, and fashion - but mostly "power" and "pleasure".

To make things simple:

Christianity = Self-Deny to fully love God and others.

(Jesus says "love others" and "what greater love is there than for a man to give up his life for his friends?")

Buddhism = Oneness through destroying The Ego (Self-Denial to feel unity with all).

Islam = Peace and Unity through everyone serving God.

Satanism = Following Carnal desires; materialism. Some believe in an actual Satan - some do not. Some believe in energy and manipulating this world for powerful and to show off success.

Luciferianism = Sharing Knowledge and Wisdom with others, because Knowledge is power and by knowing things you become aware of more choices and can further be an individual. Strong emphasis on Individuality and Free-Will.

Faiths outside of Abrahamic religions don't have an issue with money and sex. How are you going to pay your bills with no money? Rich Christians should share their wealth.

[spiritualghosthaunting]

But, christ is not god.

I give up. I read your Mormon rhetoric and they don't jive with me. First you said you get wisdom from Satan and then you said Jesus is not god. Sayonara!

[ChloeB]

You know I was thinking about it, how it keeps getting said that Satan is the god or at least in control of our world now. Well it looks to me this biblical creator god is rather impotent in this world, got hoodwinked in the garden of eden by some being he supposedly created and had dominion over, does that even make any sense? Maybe this impotent god has no power other than to tell tales to gullible people to make them believe he's the true god, but he's not in control of the world at all because he's a fake god and is really powerless to do anything here, so he just pretends to be "letting" Satan have it. It reminds me sort of a short-man complex really. Oh that Satan better watch out when I really get ready to take my world and people back, oh it's gonna be bad, oh so bad, I'm gonna dress up in my Jesus skin suit and do some major carnage, but it's nothing but a bunch of talk, he couldn't if he wanted to or he would have done it.

Edited July 1, 2013 by ChloeB

[LostSouls7]

Also it says in the bible that the Devil was through down to the earth..

to cause lots of woes.

Well wouldn't it make sense to have rather casted him onto Pluto..

why send him to earth?

hell the universe is big... they could have put him anywhere...

why earth?

I still say they kicked him out for drinking all the wine in heaven...

I heard they have fine liquors up there..

[ChloeB]

Also it says in the bible that the Devil was through down to the earth..

to cause lots of woes.

Well wouldn't it make sense to have rather casted him onto Pluto..

why send him to earth?

hell the universe is big... they could have put him anywhere...

why earth?

I still say they kicked him out for drinking all the wine in heaven...

I heard they have fine liquors up there..

I know that doesn't make any sense does it? It's like taking someone convicted of a crime and then banishing them to an elementary school where they can corrupt all the kids.

[Grandpa Greenman]

Oh what a long thread and I been staying out of it. I don't think he was kicked out, he left in disgust.

[Jor-el]

You know I was thinking about it, how it keeps getting said that Satan is the god or at least in control of our world now. Well it looks to me this biblical creator god is rather impotent in this world, got hoodwinked in the garden of eden by some being he supposedly created and had dominion over, does that even make any sense? Maybe this impotent god has no power other than to tell tales to gullible people to make them believe he's the true god, but he's not in control of the world at all because he's a fake god and is really powerless to do anything here, so he just pretends to be "letting" Satan have it. It reminds me sort of a short-man complex really. Oh that Satan better watch out when I really get ready to take my world and people back, oh it's gonna be bad, oh so bad, I'm gonna dress up in my Jesus skin suit and do some major carnage, but it's nothing but a bunch of talk, he couldn't if he wanted to or he would have done it.

Chloe, do think that God is powerless to stop what you described, or do you think the decision is rather to let things play themselves out?

Put yourself dispassionately in his position, would you strike out like the two year old everyone keeps saying you are (An accusation leveled every day on this board at God) or would you create and implement a plan that would irrevocably demonstrate that you are indeed in control but not the tyrant that everyone is assuming your are either?

[ChloeB]

Chloe, do think that God is powerless to stop what you described, or do you think the decision is rather to let things play themselves out?

Put yourself dispassionately in his position, would you strike out like the two year old everyone keeps saying you are (An accusation leveled every day on this board at God) or would you create and implement a plan that would irrevocably demonstrate that you are indeed in control but not the tyrant that everyone is assuming your are either?

I would do some things that showed my positive side instead of just sitting back and say worship and this dubious historical character that no one is really sure about and saying............"I'll BE BACK!!" I mean what's up with this guessing game, why not just show who you are if you have the power, come from behind the curtain, it's all egomaniacal to me to hide and still demand love and loyalty when people have no idea what's going on with you.

[Jor-el]

I would do some things that showed my positive side instead of just sitting back and say worship and this dubious historical character that no one is really sure about and saying............"I'll BE BACK!!" I mean what's up with this guessing game, why not just show who you are if you have the power, come from behind the curtain, it's all egomaniacal to me to hide and still demand love and loyalty when people have no idea what's going on with you.

Jeez Chloe, as far as I know he did just that... didn't help much except create Christianity which people seem to hate even more... so the question, just how loud a knock do people need to be convinced?

[danielost]

Jeez Chloe, as far as I know he did just that... didn't help much except create Christianity which people seem to hate even more... so the question, just how loud a knock do people need to be convinced?

He also told us to put our light on a hill, for everyone to see. Meaning do what he did if we can. Christ did not create christianity. It was created because of him.

Edited July 3, 2013 by danielost

[ellapenella]

Alright, I think I see the problem here: Crowley did write some outrageous FICTION. He was trying to gross out his wife who was getting carried away with erotic literature obsession. Maybe he saved his marriage or maybe it backfired, IDK. It was pretty gross though. I don't want to talk about it either except for the fact that you say you believe in personal righteous judgement...then you better have your facts straight if you want to avoid hypocrisy. Jesus allegedly respected Moses who was far worse than Crowley(genocide and mass child rape), and that is not supposed to be fiction.

Yeah , but I'm talking about his " The Book Of The law". It's in there. I don't like talking about that sort of mentality, it's just not something i care to talk about at all., it's why I detest Crowley..I don't even want to share here what I've read in it concerning sacrifice and the innocence of a male child as a perfect victim in what he was teaching regarding energy and such including which he taught doing so enhanced power, energy .

I won't complement him on anything because of that . He became the evil that he feed off of.

Oh Marc, you may have not seen where i said a lot of things pertaing to Moses and the Talmud..I think that horrible things were always happening and that it may have been easier for manipulators to manipulate others into believing that they were god like.... at least back I think that certain orders may still function, and always have in such cruel evilness. I think evil is a mental sickness ,but followers of Crowley seem to like to believe that there is no right and there is no wrong, yet they find wrong in Christianity?.I don't get why the Church is not addressed for overthrowing the old way , no they don't focus on that , more so they focus , I really want to say they hate on the "Christian Principles" of Christ Teachings . Yet they claim to not hold a belief in right and wrong? And so they accuse the church of creating sin...When it is the teachings of Christ that created the Church it self...I am not in defense of the church's actions , but I am always on the side of Christ....I choose the path of Yeshusa the path of Christ , I do not choose the path of someone like Crowley, who can not compare or shine a spark of light in comparison to Jesus...

An individual such as Crowley would do anything as he tempted his will to do so , and for what? what was his purpose or goal? There wasn't nothing that man would not have done to test the powers that be . He was more than capable of harming those that he wrote of in his book of the law...Referring to majick rituals and the use of victims ...Either you haven't read it for yourself , or , you'd like to think of it as being taken out of context , though I highly doubt it was taken out of context, it's very understandable and considering the individual was one that would actually place himself in the darkest experiences he could no matter what, and what for, what for? what was his goal , what drove him to do those things?..and I do believe that he has done so , many times...

On another note, the old way . not the path Crowley took , but the old way , was based on majick , some were manipulators and some were truly intuitive, knowing plants have spirit and all things have spirit. I believe that Yeshua was one who knew the old way and when i have read the stories contained of his teachings i can see it , I see where he referred to nature in the sense of the old way. That's the Christ I know...

Jor-el and daniel

are you two familiar that there are the 6th and 7th books of Moses?

[ellapenella]

Why are you stuck on a need to have an entity to place on high? I mean really, people act like they need some moral eye in the sky or the world would go crazy from lack of immorality, well how's that working out for us? Because it is glaringly obvious from history that people can justify anything in the name of their god, anything. Believing they have god behind it just makes it more powerful in the minds of mankind.

Truly, it is illogical in stating that there is no creator..

[ellapenella]

Jacob was a very strong individual emotionally, a lot more would be needed for him to break down and hallucinate something so clearly, especially if he had a limp because of it for the rest of his life.

Genesis 32:24-32

³⁰ So Jacob called the place Peniel, saying, “It is because I saw God face to face, and yet my life was spared.”

³¹ The sun rose above him as he passed Peniel, and he was limping because of his hip. ³² Therefore to this day the Israelites do not eat the tendon attached to the socket of the hip, because the socket of Jacob’s hip was touched near the tendon.

You do know that Jacob had his name changed by God in that encounter, he was never again called Jacob, He was called Israel, “he who strives with God.” I think that says it all, on whether we are talking of an hallucination or a breakdown of some sort.

People seem to have this very strange idea about Jesus and God, that there is only love there and nothing else. There is also justice and there is also vengeance.

It is Jesus who will completely and utterly annihilate thousands of people who take the mark of the beast at his second coming...

Revelation 19:11-21

¹¹ I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and wages war. ¹² His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. ¹³ He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. ¹⁴ The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. ¹⁵ Coming out of his mouth is a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. ¹⁶ On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:

king of kings and lord of lords.

¹⁷ And I saw an angel standing in the sun, who cried in a loud voice to all the birds flying in midair, “Come, gather together for the great supper of God, ¹⁸ so that you may eat the flesh of kings, generals, and the mighty, of horses and their riders, and the flesh of all people, free and slave, great and small.”

¹⁹ Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to wage war against the rider on the horse and his army. ²⁰ But the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who had performed the signs on its behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped its image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur. ²¹ The rest were killed with the sword coming out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.

Be realistic in your approach to God...

One last thing, this event changed Jacob completely... because of it God could start his work in Jacobs life...

Yeah but , I see things as so ...I may be wrong but , a lot of what turns me off from the biblical concept of God moving on behalf of a certain people seems to have always felt political to me , not really like it came from a creator , but that people have manipulated others into thinking they have had the ability to control nature itself, such as crops ect.

I truly do not support Zionism and that's where all this seems to have gone. There's way to many wars and there's way too many suffering in the world and so in my own heart soul and mind , i don't really take everything literal in the bible. I see Jacob as one who may be considered as one who knew majick by a way of manipulating others, everything he did was of manipulation that i read of him....Maybe I'm wrong about that...

[ellapenella]

Mark

Where Crowley had said :" A white male child of perfect innocence and intelligence makes the perfect victim"

Also , the two most important concepts he taught were The Law of Reversal and second Self awareness...

Though the second I have no ill feelings about it , other than it seems to me that it's concept is twisted in a sense of manipulation. I was taught or spoken to about a numerous amount of materials when just a young kid, I never forgot forgot them ever , it opened a window for me to not be trapped in a church organized set of doctrine, even though I do appreciate and admire the biblical texts as sacred, because they are , just seems to me that it's more than obvious they too were utilized in a form to control a setting , ones mind that is if one were scared into thinking and questioning things for themselves, no one should ever fear questioning their understanding of the mystery of nature and the force within and before it all came to being... though in my personal awareness , in taking the credit of that force within and before any of us ever were a concept seems to me that one than is suggesting they know all things, and we don't know all things, but we do know that there is a force within the universe that is an undeniable mystery...How could anyone excuse that ,as it isn't there? I was taught that we are all gods, but that there too is a creator a force but that this force coexisted with another force it's opposite and that neither could exist any other way...

Out of darkness comes light, some say...

There's a place in the bible , I think maybe in the book of revelations, i don't know where exactly it is but, that it says: God either wants you on fire for him ,or, cold towards him ,but that , God doesn't want you lukewarm towards him, that God would spew you from his mouth if you were just in-between...That always reminded me of gnostic teachings...

There a lot that reminds me of the old teachings in scriptures contained in biblical text.I've always questioned the church in the manner which they have taught what was from old, because i see the conformity and controlled it had taken over people, though I don't hold people like Yeshua accountable for what others have done.He too had even said that knowledge would increase . I don't think the church can hold back people like they once have , but I do not uphold the luciferian doctrine at all. That too can be traced to political manipulation as well as the church.. Though there are truths in both teachings....It's just a matter of will and balance. The key was always shared by Yeshua in how to open that within us all , as he had , it was and is always simple, so much so that he described it as a child could understand it , it was that childlike faith in having to just believe , the key was always to just believe. Crowley knew that too , though he for whatever reasons went in the other direction...

If I am going to praise anyone of the two , I will praise Yeshua for the teachings of Christ within, that's the path I choose....And even when I consider alchemy , not the green lion aspect of it ,where as manipulation of the elements are needed to attempt to base metal into gold ,but the deeper spiritual alchemical teachings , that we are of the very same atom as all life is of, and that the base metal is actually another way of seeing ourselves , and that we are to evolve and transform ourselves from within into that purest of gold...funny how the streets of heaven are paved with gold, and the kingdom of heaven is found within, right? So, I suppose i desire not a darkened forest , but that i desire to follow that golden road to that shining state of being...

[ellapenella]

Mr. Crowley,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FdRIlChq5tA