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danielost

why did satan get kicked out of heaven

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danielost

Oddly enough, according to Christianity everyone is still born into Sin . . . epic fail.

Born in sin. But with christ's sacrifice, all of us don't have live forever in sin. A few of us will but that is their choose.

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danielost

Well, there goes free-will I guess..

No you still have free will. You just have to pay for your choice.

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Etu Malku

You didn't finish that scripture: let us remove man from the garden lest he reach forth and eat of the tree of life and live forever in sin. That is paraphrased. It isn't that god doesn't want us to live forever, it is he doesn't want us to live forever in sin.

It's more along the lines that god didn't want Mankind to have the ability to become a god themselves.

Genesis 2:17

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die."

Genesis 3:4-5

“You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.

“For God knows that when you eat from it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.”

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third_eye

What exactly did 'Satan' do wrong again?

~swing~

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Etu Malku

~swing~

So, you think he should have taken the pitch and walked? :geek:

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Copen
Angels must have free will as well. He must not have agreed with a choice God had made. It's easy to disagree with God when so much is at stake. For instance when God decides it's time for someone you love to die and your not ready, it leaves a terrible sadness and bitterness in your soul, the anger can destroy you, so much so that you start taking other peoples lives to spite him. Although the world is 4 billion years old, our universe is much older, other worlds have come and gone,

There's a big difference. Man can get forgiveness. Angels cannot.

This world is by Biblical record 8,000 years old. There were no other worlds (meaning orders, arrangements, and kinds of humans made in God's image. If so, Jesus had to go to each of those worlds and die for their sins, too.) That means our Bible is a lie when it says Jesus died once for all five sacrifices and all seven holy feast days.

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third_eye

So, you think he should have taken the pitch and walked? :geek:

I thought he was thrown too ... or was I mistaken again ?

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Arpee

No you still have free will. You just have to pay for your choice.

So if someone puts a gun to your head and say "give me your money or your life is over". You would consider that free-will?

That is a death threat not free-will...

All choices have consequences , yes, but when another is FORCING choices and threatening harm on another that is NOT free-will.

Edited by Arpee
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markprice

There's a big difference. Man can get forgiveness. Angels cannot.

Anything with free will might make mistakes, so angels could be forgiven. Intent is different though: an angel that intends to fight God is making a stupid mistake but as long as that intent exists it could not be forgiven. If it admits it made a mistake the intent is gone. But a lot of damage could have been done before the admission of guilt and that might not be forgivable. So there has to be justice. If souls were eternally destroyed then the punishment would be eternal. That's not the same as an angelic misunderstanding.

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danielost

It would seem that the fallen angels did a lot more than anything we have come up with in this thread, or they just turned their back on god.

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ellapenella

This has been mentioned in another thread. But, no one wants to derail that thread to discuss it.

I was taught, basically that satan and god got into an arguement over how to save mankind. Satan wanted to force us back to god. God wanted us to have freewill here as we did in heaven.

Is it even possible for anyone to argue with the Divine source of all Nature itself ? Where exactly did you learn this? From what or from who? Were you taught this from out of a book ? Or was this passed down from traditional teachings to you, if so , who came up with this concept?

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Etu Malku
This world is by Biblical record 8,000 years old. There were no other worlds (meaning orders, arrangements, and kinds of humans made in God's image. If so, Jesus had to go to each of those worlds and die for their sins, too.) That means our Bible is a lie when it says Jesus died once for all five sacrifices and all seven holy feast days.
Ya think? :innocent:

So if someone puts a gun to your head and say "give me your money or your life is over". You would consider that free-will?

That is a death threat not free-will...

All choices have consequences , yes, but when another is FORCING choices and threatening harm on another that is NOT free-will.

Exactly what took place in the metaphorical Garden of Eden . . . the Almighty presented Free Will with punishment if His Will was not followed . . . that is not Free Will, that is Blackmail.

The idea of 'Free Will' I have alsways thought to be incorrected stated . . . it should mean "Freedom from the Will of Another"

The term 'Fallen-Angel' is found neither in the Hebrew Bible nor the Deuterocanonical Books nor the New Testament. The Hebrew Bible does not say that Satan is an angel, nor that he is fallen: it uses the corresponding Hebrew word 'ha satan', which means "adversary".

The entire legend comes from the Book of Enoch, but they are Grigori (Watchers) and are not 'fallen' or 'banished' from heaven.

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danielost

Is it even possible for anyone to argue with the Divine source of all Nature itself ? Where exactly did you learn this? From what or from who? Were you taught this from out of a book ? Or was this passed down from traditional teachings to you, if so , who came up with this concept?

It is mormon teachings. But, I think it is in the bible. Not sure what scriptures.

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danielost

There's a big difference. Man can get forgiveness. Angels cannot.

This world is by Biblical record 8,000 years old. There were no other worlds (meaning orders, arrangements, and kinds of humans made in God's image. If so, Jesus had to go to each of those worlds and die for their sins, too.) That means our Bible is a lie when it says Jesus died once for all five sacrifices and all seven holy feast days.

Using your count the world is 13000 years old. It took god 7000 years to make the planet ready for us.

As for there being life on other planets. There is. Each planet would have it's own saviour.

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Jor-el

This has been mentioned in another thread. But, no one wants to derail that thread to discuss it.

I was taught, basically that satan and god got into an arguement over how to save mankind. Satan wanted to force us back to god. God wanted us to have freewill here as we did in heaven.

As far as I can tell Satan was never thrown out of Heaven. He is the Leader of a faction within Heaven that considers mankind as a mistake that should never have existed.

Mankind was created to be Gods imagers in the physical universe. By their word and will, mankind was to be Gods representative in the physical universe, they were part of Gods Divine Council as were the other elohim (sons of God). They were placed at a level equal to and even superior to the elohim, something they did not appreciate at all.

Thus Satan was never expelled from heaven since he is part of the Divine Council still.

Yes he rebelled and yes there is a war still going on, and yes Satan is Lord of the Earth, but that position was given to him by mankind itself, when mankind abdicated kingship, by being deceived, and Satan has been judged, but he has not yet been convicted.

Edited by Jor-el

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GoldenWolf

As far as I can tell Satan was never thrown out of Heaven. He is the Leader of a faction within Heaven that considers mankind as a mistake that should never have existed.

Genesis 6:6-7

New International Version (NIV)

6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

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Etu Malku

Genesis 6:6-7

New International Version (NIV)

6 The Lord regretted that he had made human beings on the earth, and his heart was deeply troubled. 7 So the Lord said, “I will wipe from the face of the earth the human race I have created—and with them the animals, the birds and the creatures that move along the ground—for I regret that I have made them.”

I guess two can play the "quote from my bible" game . . .

THE DIABOLICON

by Michael Aquino

The Statement of Satan Archdaemon

Verse 9

And then it chanced that one of our race who was Sammael touched upon chaos in a manner that conformed not to the great order, and Masleh spoke with the word of God and caused Sammael to destroy himself. And so I saw that God would not recognize a Will apart from its own, and I was seized with horror, for I perceived that the final scheme of God would destroy creation in all things, and the Cosmos would become as a concentric mechanism whose function would be not to create anew, but rather to freeze into perpetuity that which already was.

Verse 11

But with Will came discord and dismay, for many of those who had known only the comforting litanies of order could not comprehend invention unconformed to the dictates of God. And also with Will came suspicion and enmity, and finally Masleh proclaimed that I myself was a very creature of chaos and should be annihilated, for I held within me the force to destroy all the craft of God. And many to whom Masleh was as God cast with him in their devotion, but others there were who answered, Lucifer has again brought the revelation of light, and in fact we recognize him as our true creator, for in the scheme of God we are of no consequence.

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Insaniac

Satan's reason for getting thrown out of Heaven:

And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought,but they did not prevail, nor was a place found for them in heaven any longer. So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”

Revelation 12:7-12

Basically, he was kicked out of Heaven for trying to kill Lord God and take His throne.

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Etu Malku

That's not what my bible says . . .

Statement of Satan Archdaemon verses 12:13

12 Among us Archangel Michael was silent, but at length he said, In time past we

have all known glory in both the omnipotence that Is our God and the celestial

brilliance that is our Lucifer- for in him we thought embodied the Will of God for

creation and change. But now it transpires that order and origin are at extremes

apart, and a choice is ill forced between the two. Were it not for Lucifer we should

all be as beasts, knowing nothing of our Selves, yet how indeed might we presume to

order even our own thought without reference to the elemental bases of God?

13 Then Michael turned to me and said, Lucifer, thou host elected a direction whose

end none can foresee, for it is estranged from the design of God. Those who confirm

thee do so as much for faith in thy person as for sanction of thy ideal. And I perceive

that, should thou fail in thy ambition, apocalyptic madness shall be thy ruin and

damnation. Then shall thy light perish, and all that thou host achieved become as

naught, for all will be conformed to the divine law. But if thou should succeed, then

God would be cast down, vesting in ourselves alone the control of the Universe -

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Marcion Meets E. Sibyl

As far as I can tell Satan was never thrown out of Heaven. He is the Leader of a faction within Heaven that considers mankind as a mistake that should never have existed.

Mankind was created to be Gods imagers in the physical universe. By their word and will, mankind was to be Gods representative in the physical universe, they were part of Gods Divine Council as were the other elohim (sons of God). They were placed at a level equal to and even superior to the elohim, something they did not appreciate at all.

Thus Satan was never expelled from heaven since he is part of the Divine Council still.

Yes he rebelled and yes there is a war still going on, and yes Satan is Lord of the Earth, but that position was given to him by mankind itself, when mankind abdicated kingship, by being deceived, and Satan has been judged, but he has not yet been convicted.

Hi Jor-el,

About Luke 10:18, is it correct to assume that Satan's fall was a temporary one (since he is still part of the Divine Council)?

"And the seventy (or 72) returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the devils are subject to us through your name.' Jesus replied, 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.'" Luke 10:17-18

Peace.

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Etu Malku

Hi Jor-el,

About Luke 10:18, is it correct to assume that Satan's fall was a temporary one (since he is still part of the Divine Council)?

"And the seventy (or 72) returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the devils are subject to us through your name.' Jesus replied, 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.'" Luke 10:17-18

Peace.

Statement of Satan Archdaemon: Verse 14:15

14 Would we dare to presume to this? Such a future might well be glorious beyond

measure, but, should we prove unequal to the task, chaos would again consume all,

and existence itself would vanish. Such would be supreme and irrevocable disaster,

and I marvel, archangel, that thy very arrogance in this matter does not confound

thee, for it is no mean proposition that thou would realize. And so I know thee to be

Diabolus, for thy promise is twofold - to infinite conquest or to eternal ruin. Thou art

a being beyond God, Lucifer, and in Heaven thou may not remain, for thou art the

only mortal danger to our Immortal God.

15 In Michael was a deep agony of spirit, for he loved not the choice before him. Yet

he bowed to the command of Masleh and sent his forces against me. and so was

called the Great Seraphic War, which was to threaten the very foundation of the

Universe.

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ellapenella

It is mormon teachings. But, I think it is in the bible. Not sure what scriptures.

So are you of a Mormon background? .If so , I think I know some what of your beliefs are. I have to say that , no , that's not in the Bible, at all. That is taught from a Mormon teaching maybe, but it is not taught from a Christian teaching . There is no place in the bible or in Christ that teaches that , nope , it just isn't .

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Jor-el

Hi Jor-el,

About Luke 10:18, is it correct to assume that Satan's fall was a temporary one (since he is still part of the Divine Council)?

"And the seventy (or 72) returned with joy and said, 'Lord, even the devils are subject to us through your name.' Jesus replied, 'I beheld Satan as lightning fall from heaven.'" Luke 10:17-18

Peace.

The problem is what Jesus meant by the use of those words, was he referring to an event that actually happened, or to an event yet to happen?

When did Satan fall from Heaven exactly?

Before man was created? After man was created but before he was expelled from Eden? When Jesus was born? When Jesus died? or when he was resurrected?

Does not Paul yet consider him the God of this world even though Christians can expel demons as the 72 did?

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spud the mackem

The Devil deals the cards and he holds the Joker, God found out that he was cheating so he banned him.

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Marcion Meets E. Sibyl

The problem is what Jesus meant by the use of those words, was he referring to an event that actually happened, or to an event yet to happen?

When did Satan fall from Heaven exactly?

Before man was created? After man was created but before he was expelled from Eden? When Jesus was born? When Jesus died? or when he was resurrected?

Does not Paul yet consider him the God of this world even though Christians can expel demons as the 72 did?

Hi Jor-el,

I see what you're saying. Therefore, the event is yet to happen, especially since Satan's fall in Revelation (12:7-13) is yet to happen. Jesus was merely foreshadowing the event, just like Francis De Wolff (Spirit of Christmas Present) foreshadowing Tiny Tim's death in Scrooge ('51): "I see a vacant seat in the poor chimney corner, and a crutch without an owner, carefully preserved."

Luke 10:18 threw me off because Satan is still the ruler of this world...

Thank you for your insight, Jor-el.

Edited by braveone2u
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