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Yamato

Fluoridating our Drinking Water

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CrimsonKing

My main interest in all of this is yes it helps in trace amounts for dental health,key words being

trace amounts...My toothpaste and mouthwash both contain fluoride,i am usually very active my job requires it so i and many others drink far more than the recomended 8-8 oz glasses of water a day.Hell sometimes i drink 3X that amount per day,so how much is trace amounts?

I think good diet and dental hygiene are far more important for dental health than the consumption of fluoride...Thats just one persons opinion though.

Edited by CrimsonKing
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Yamato

I share your opinion, CK.

Having to ingest it into our bodies from our drinking water so it can just slide over our teeth and marginally stay in our mouths for a small period of time doesn't sound like the oral cleaning service that I would order. Experimentally we here at UM could let our teeth get dirty enough with plaque where we can feel it "coating" and then go stand under a tap of fluoridated water and drink till the cows come home and I'm sorry but that plaque isn't coming off. We'd die from too much water before getting our teeth clean.

F is legend at stopping tooth decay, I don't think anyone here is contesting that. And that's why it's in our water, so we need to be careful that a rush to known benefits didn't cause us to ignore the potential dangers and risks

According to the tinfoil hat wearers at medicalnewstoday there are still other issues.

Skeletal fluorosis

A bone disease caused by too much fluoride. In severe cases, there is damage to bones and joints, as well as pain.

High fluorine concentrations in the body lead to hardened and less elastic bones, which increases the risk of fractures.

The bones may thicken and bone tissue accumulates, which contribute to impaired joint mobility.

The majority of patients eventually suffer from nausea and possible ruptures of the stomach lining.

In some cases, the thyroid gland may be damaged, resulting in hyperparathyroidism. In hyperparathyroidism the secretion of parathyroid hormones goes out of control, resulting in depletion of calcium in bone structures and higher-than-normal concentrations of calcium in the blood. Lower calcium concentrations in bones make them more susceptible to fractures.

According to UNICEF, fluorosis is endemic in at least 25 countries. The number of people suffering from skeletal fluorosis globally is thought to be in the tens of millions. WHO estimates that 2.7 million people in China have the crippling form of the disease.

http://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/154164.php

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danielost

but, the government knows what is best for us. isn't that what liberals think.

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Gromdor

Honestly, living here in Iowa and seeing the fertilizer, antibiotics, manure, growth hormones, and other farm waste that goes into rivers like the Mississippi makes me feel that fluoride is the least of our worries when it comes to drinking water. And don't even get me started about some of the industrial waste I've seen from coal plants, refineries, chemical plants, and various manufacturers. We don't even test for half of the impurities because we really don't want to know. As long as no one is having 3-headed babies everyone is looking the other way.

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danielost

Good Grief.

Some folks need to take a chemistry class. Did you not realise that, as a VERY OBVIOUS example, chlorine and chlorides are COMPLETELY and utterly different???

If not, then how is it that we NEED salt, which is sodium chloride? Both Sodium and Chlorine are very, very nasty things... By Dan's ridiculous logic, salt is just as deadly as chlorine gas...

You know, H2O is lethal under many circumstances, too, Daniel...... If I was you I'd stop drinking it.

We need some flouride as a trace element for healthy teeth - the only thing up for argument is whether, in a typical diet, you get enough that there is no need for it to be supplemented.

I'd happily offer much more scientific literature and studies and reports that show the benefits of fluoridation, but those of Daniel's ilk who gullibly swallow this rubbish wouldn't visit any site that had peer-reviewed science. Youtube and tinfoilsites rule as a reference for the Daniels..

Does anyone here have a credible reference that looks at the actual numbers of proven benefits to teeth, versus any ill-effects like the very rare and largely harmless dental fluorosis? And that shows that fluorosis (or whatever) was caused by fluoridation?

and d

Good Grief.

Some folks need to take a chemistry class. Did you not realise that, as a VERY OBVIOUS example, chlorine and chlorides are COMPLETELY and utterly different???

If not, then how is it that we NEED salt, which is sodium chloride? Both Sodium and Chlorine are very, very nasty things... By Dan's ridiculous logic, salt is just as deadly as chlorine gas...

You know, H2O is lethal under many circumstances, too, Daniel...... If I was you I'd stop drinking it.

We need some flouride as a trace element for healthy teeth - the only thing up for argument is whether, in a typical diet, you get enough that there is no need for it to be supplemented.

I'd happily offer much more scientific literature and studies and reports that show the benefits of fluoridation, but those of Daniel's ilk who gullibly swallow this rubbish wouldn't visit any site that had peer-reviewed science. Youtube and tinfoilsites rule as a reference for the Daniels..

Does anyone here have a credible reference that looks at the actual numbers of proven benefits to teeth, versus any ill-effects like the very rare and largely harmless dental fluorosis? And that shows that fluorosis (or whatever) was caused by fluoridation?

did you know that salt is a poison, which is why you can't drtink ocean water.

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Malaria_Kidd

FLUORIDEGATE an American Tragedy - a David Kennedy film..... :hmm:

:alien: I doubt a grey alien has teeth. :whistle:

Edited by Malaria_Kidd

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Yamato

When people break out the subscripts, they're serious about their Chemistry! I should start typing F- to avoid even further confusion :santa:

To the guy recommending Chemistry classes to others, Chlorine and Chloride aren't "COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY different", they're an electron apart. As if to infer that Chlorine is the bad-rep stuff in the pool meanwhile the Chloride salt on the table is just fine. Pour some Hydrogen Chloride in your mixed drinks then, don't blame me after you burn holes in your esophagus.

There are many salts. Table salt is but one. Is it a poison? To use CK's point, what if someone uses 3x more salt than an already high level of consumption? Is that poisonous? What's the curve look like between the two extremes of acceptable levels of sodium in our diets vs drinking mouthfuls of ocean water?

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Yamato

Uh oh you guys, here comes Harte and he's got three guys from the EPA behind him. I can't believe my eyes

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Arbenol

When people break out the subscripts, they're serious about their Chemistry! I should start typing F- to avoid even further confusion :santa:

To the guy recommending Chemistry classes to others, Chlorine and Chloride aren't "COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY different", they're an electron apart. As if to infer that Chlorine is the bad-rep stuff in the pool meanwhile the Chloride salt on the table is just fine. Pour some Hydrogen Chloride in your mixed drinks then, don't blame me after you burn holes in your esophagus.

There are many salts. Table salt is but one. Is it a poison? To use CK's point, what if someone uses 3x more salt than an already high level of consumption? Is that poisonous? What's the curve look like between the two extremes of acceptable levels of sodium in our diets vs drinking mouthfuls of ocean water?

True. But using that argument, everything is poisonous. Water is. Even chocolate - heaven forbid.

That one electron makes all the difference. It turns elemental sodium (a substance that combusts violently when in contact with water) into a sodium ion (which your body really likes because it assists in neural communication).

A similar argument for chlorine and fluorine etc....

Your body has no use for sodium or chlorine (or fluorine). Take away or add and electron and it's a different story.

I believe this thread of the conversation started when Daniel mentioned about them being poisons. Elementally they are. But his point was a little disingenuous.

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Yamato

True. But using that argument, everything is poisonous. Water is. Even chocolate - heaven forbid.

That one electron makes all the difference. It turns elemental sodium (a substance that combusts violently when in contact with water) into a sodium ion (which your body really likes because it assists in neural communication).

A similar argument for chlorine and fluorine etc....

Your body has no use for sodium or chlorine (or fluorine). Take away or add and electron and it's a different story.

I believe this thread of the conversation started when Daniel mentioned about them being poisons. Elementally they are. But his point was a little disingenuous.

Fluoride and Fluorine, etc. I can't speak for daniel but I was already wondering if salts like NaCl are poisons, not the elements, ionic compounds.

If Skeletal Fluorosis is endemic in 25 countries, how'd that happen and how much did they ingest? People do seem to be ingesting it in unsafe amounts for this to occur. I'd first like to know how it happens, and second how much they're ingesting.

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danielost

i was just pointing out that the lest poisoness of the three requires a medical license to use and the most poisoness is in toothpaste and now drinking water.

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danielost

most poisons are safe to use as long as you don't exceed the safe amount. the safe amount depends on body weight. you go over that and there are consequences. which is why the tooth paste tube, says to only use a pea size amount. bet, few people even read the tube.

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ChrLzs

So, Yamato, I went to your first link, and found stuff like:

Sixty years ago, Grand Rapids, Michigan became the world’s first city to adjust the level

of fluoride in its water supply. Since that time, fluoridation has dramatically improved

the oral health of tens of millions of Americans. Community water fluoridation is the

single most effective public health measure to prevent tooth decay

Studies conducted throughout the past 60 years have consistently indicated that

fluoridation of community water supplies is safe and effective in preventing dental

decay in both children and adults.[/size]

[/size]

It also addresses many of the typical questions asked about the benefits versus the problems. How did you read that article Yamato, and what are your comments? And why didn't you give them when you lazily linked to the article..?

Having to ingest it into our bodies from our drinking water so it can just slide over our teeth and marginally stay in our mouths for a small period of time doesn't sound like the oral cleaning service that I would order.

And flippant, dismissive comments like that, deliberately weighted to make it sound bad, are completely useless to a sensible discussion.

Wouldn't it be MORE useful to discuss the actual numbers, the actual benefits versus the downside and look at the issue PROPERLY? It's all very well to dig up rare issues and then run around panicking like Chicken Little, but if tens of thousands - nay millions of people benefit from better dental health (and avoid all the associated issues with dental caries and related problems - some of which are not just serious but fatal or life-shortening), don't you think that your methodology is shallow and ridiculous?

I do.

Experimentally we here at UM could let our teeth get dirty enough with plaque where we can feel it "coating" and then go stand under a tap of fluoridated water and drink till the cows come home and I'm sorry but that plaque isn't coming off. We'd die from too much water before getting our teeth clean.

And there, folks, is Yamato at his scientific best... Seriously, this is meant to be a sensible debate? Actually, why not just do a quick vote - I'm sure you could word it to get whatever result you dam well like, Yam...

F is legend at stopping tooth decay

It's FLOURIDE. It's not Fluorine. We could start by using the correct chemicals (there are 3, I trust you know that, Yam - there's not much sign of that above...).

I don't think anyone here is contesting that.

Actually, I would suggest that there are several who ARE. Daniel thinks it's deadly poisonous, and you are helping by using the F abbreviation for Fluorine, which is NOT what we are talking about. But the simple fact is that you have conceded that it has very strong benefits, so surely the correct way (and I don;'t know how many times I need to say this before it gets throguh......) is to do a COST-BENEFIT study. Which has been done, almost everywhere it has been introduced, and many times since. To add a useless personal anecdote (in line with the garbage being posted by others here.. as a child growing up in the sixties, I went from frequent dental visits and 1-2 fillings per year to zero as soon as Fluoride was added to our water supply..

And that's why it's in our water, so we need to be careful that a rush to known benefits didn't cause us to ignore the potential dangers and risks

Oh AT LAST..! A small sign that you agree that benefits need to be weighed against disadvantages. What puzzles me is that you apparently haven't found ALL of the myriad studies of EXACTLY that...?

According to the tinfoil hat wearers at medicalnewstoday there are still other issues.

Well, you nominated it...

Skeletal fluorosis

A bone disease caused by too much fluoride. In severe cases, there is damage to bones and joints, as well as pain.

Righto then - where are the statistics? I trust this report gives the full story and weighs that against the benefits???

QUOTE THAT BIT, please Yamato. And again, isn't that what you should have done instead of dragging useless undefined comments over as if they were meaningful?

Most importantly, quote the bit that shows that this condition is being significantly worsened by the addition of fluoride. Gee, could this be a problem in those areas that already have EXCESSIVE fluoride in their water/earth/environment? And are the authorities in those regions adding fluoride?

Yamato, it seems very clear you are cherry-picking data and not giving the full story. Are you genuinely not caring or knowledgeable enough to think about what you are ignoring or how easily you are being misled? Do your really think things are so simple that you can compare completely different regions, and simply toss flippant comments about various diseases without putting it all into proper context?

I'm glad you aren't a decision maker, if the stuff you have regurgitated here is any guide to your standard approach...

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ChrLzs

Fluoride and Fluorine, etc. I can't speak for daniel but I was already wondering if salts like NaCl are poisons, not the elements, ionic compounds.

If Skeletal Fluorosis is endemic in 25 countries, how'd that happen and how much did they ingest? People do seem to be ingesting it in unsafe amounts for this to occur. I'd first like to know how it happens, and second how much they're ingesting.

For heaven's sake, Yamato LOOK at your own document and see which 25 countries have 'endemic' fluorosis problems... Are THOSE COUNTRIES the ones that are adding fluoride to their water??? I can see only two - my own and New Zealand, and in both cases I will guarantee that fluorosis problems are simply not comparable in any way to the huge benefits that come from fluoridation - indeed, I can show you plenty of research that suggest fluorosis is very rare in Oz, and is only a problem in some regional/remote areas where there is NO fluoridation anyway.

Do go and have a look for yourself - what are the figures for fluorosis in Australia, and where do they occur?

In summary, does that document IN ANY WAY suggest that fluoridation of water, done in regions that have low natural fluoride levels in the water/environment, is a bad thing? Isn't THAT the question?

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Iron_Lotus

I have had one filling in my entire life. I brush regularly, I eat skittles like they're going out of style and I drink the holy hell out of tap water have everyday for as long as I can remember, bottled water tastes awful and I will never be bothered to buy a water filter for my tap, it tastes good to me and I have never suffered any health effects from these DEADLY POIIIISONS OOOOOOOOOOO be careful... lmao

have a good diet, brush your damn teeth, and exercise regularly, for a healthy, happy life. simple enough to me. I'll leave the fear mongering for the people who live in fear.

edit: sorry to bump over to the next page ChrLzs those were great posts bud :)

Edited by Iron_Lotus
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CrimsonKing

As i have said,i only speak for myself i dont fear it but i do question how much of anything i should put in my body.An example during training camps as ive said i can easily consume 3 to 4X the recomended amount of water for most people in a day.Thats usually a 2 and a half to 3 month process at a time.

I also take supplements one preworkout i use has almost 450 mg of caffeine per serving,needless to say on days i use said supplement i make sure i dont go around consuming large amounts of caffeine from other sources.

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danielost

For heaven's sake, Yamato LOOK at your own document and see which 25 countries have 'endemic' fluorosis problems... Are THOSE COUNTRIES the ones that are adding fluoride to their water??? I can see only two - my own and New Zealand, and in both cases I will guarantee that fluorosis problems are simply not comparable in any way to the huge benefits that come from fluoridation - indeed, I can show you plenty of research that suggest fluorosis is very rare in Oz, and is only a problem in some regional/remote areas where there is NO fluoridation anyway.

Do go and have a look for yourself - what are the figures for fluorosis in Australia, and where do they occur?

In summary, does that document IN ANY WAY suggest that fluoridation of water, done in regions that have low natural fluoride levels in the water/environment, is a bad thing? Isn't THAT the question?

so it is ok if a few people die, as long as most get benefits.

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Iron_Lotus

I'm more concerned with air pollution than i am with good old tap water. i imagine you do drink a lot i do as well but i don't really give a damn about whats in my water is it clean? yes. is it clear? yes. does it taste good? yup, that's all i need.... now if my water smelled funky and wasn't clear sure i would sing a different tune but I've been drinking tap water for 26 years now... i think I'll be more than ok ;)

it's really not that hard to know what goes in and out of your body i know what my body needs i know when to eat and drink i know how much to eat i know the best time to plan my meals around my metabolism and needs, it's not hard it just take's the smallest amount of dedication.

so it is ok if a few people die, as long as most get benefits.

yes.... well maybe not ok but the ends justify the means, the worlds not fair, deal with it.

Edited by Iron_Lotus

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danielost

I'm more concerned with air pollution than i am with good old tap water. i imagine you do drink a lot i do as well but i don't really give a damn about whats in my water is it clean? yes. is it clear? yes. does it taste good? yup, that's all i need.... now if my water smelled funky and wasn't clear sure i would sing a different tune but I've been drinking tap water for 26 years now... i think I'll be more than ok ;)

it's really not that hard to know what goes in and out of your body i know what my body needs i know when to eat and drink i know how much to eat i know the best time to plan my meals around my metabolism and needs, it's not hard it just take's the smallest amount of dedication.

yes.... well maybe not ok but the ends justify the means, the worlds not fair, deal with it.

so you have good teeth, it is ok for the three year old child to die from the fluoride in the water.

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CrimsonKing

You are correct in one sense air pollution is a problem,then you went and said its not that hard to know whats in your body?You breath in a lot of things you dont want in your body,sorry just a bit contradictory :tu:

Edit to add

Yes we cant control everything,but its nice to have options on what we can and cannot put in our bodies.

Edited by CrimsonKing

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CrimsonKing

so it is ok if a few people die, as long as most get benefits.

I think through history thats the way its always been...

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Iron_Lotus

awww tugging on the heartstriiings.... i highly doubt there's 3 year old's dropping dead at some alarming rate from tap water, so personally... i don't care. sure it's tragic that a kid may have died, but I'm not about to jump on the coo-coo websites and start my tirade against fluoride lmao. if 100 people die from flouride but a million are helped by it then yeah sorry I'll drop those hundred faster than you could say it.

yeah well crimson... not much ya can do about air pollution, certainly not going to be cooped in my home afraid and scared to breathe in the air. nor wear a respirator outside... actually too ummm its pretttttty easy to use a weather service and check the air quality index these days too. and I'm in alberta so it's not even that bad.

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CrimsonKing

Correct again but pollution also goes into the food you eat through rainwater and soil,so no matter what ya do you get it one way or another...

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ChrLzs

so it is ok if a few people die, as long as most get benefits.

NO-ONE died from fluorosis in Australia which is where I was making the comparison, so stop making crap up and trying to mislead this forum. All you are showing is your ignorance and unwillingness to get off your butt and actually do some real research. If you want us to talk about statistics, then roll them out, Daniel.

But I'd strongly suggest you do some homework FIRST, or this will get even worse for you.

Let's be specific about my country - in the 6 year period from 1998 to 2004 there were 3 (yes, THREE) cases of skeletal fluorosis recorded in Australia (PDF cite - refer p17). 3 cases in 6 years in a population of ~20 million, NONE were fatal, and as far as I can see (very happy to be corrected, but only by genuine reports) there is NO suggestion that any of them were related to water fluoridation.

Daniel, this is getting embarrassing. The stuff you are posting is just too ridiculous for serious consideration.

And may I suggest you do a little research on how many folks die, or have dramatically shortened lifespans, from complications directly related to dental disease, and the immense costs of that - if we had dental caries at the same rate as it was before fluoridation, medical costs would probably have to double or triple... So YES is the correct answer to your silly question, anyway.

And do CITE any particular cases you want us to examine, Daniel. I'm getting mighty sick of your handwaving and you have misled this forum many times in the past.

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