Zimmerman trial

[+susieice]

So it's perfectly fine for M to call Z a "cracker" and it isn't racist?

Of course it's a racial remark. Just as bad as what Zimmerman called him. Which is why I wonder how Z reacted.

Edited June 27, 2013 by susieice

[Regi]

When she said Trayvon told her that a creepy *** cracker was following him, I would have loved to have seen Zimmerman's face.

You and me, both!

Zimmerman's impressions of Martin were all shown to be entirely false, but Martin's impression of Zimmerman as a "creepy ass cracker" is indisputable!

Key word there, "creepy")

[docyabut2]

Whats odd in her testimony she said she heard Trayon saying, why are you following me and then she heard grass, how in the world does some hear grass? The fact that trayon did have grass stains on the knees of his pants would indicate he did jumb on Zimmemon and had him on the ground.

[Michelle]

Of course it's a racial remark. Just as bad as what Zimmerman called him. Which is why I wonder how Z reacted.

Z probably didn't even hear it, if it is true M was avoiding him most of the time.

So the actual unedited transcript of the 911 call has been revealed? Every one of them I've read, from the various news sites, has been different.

Not 911 call, but you know what I mean.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Michelle

[+susieice]

Z probably didn't even hear it, if it is true M was avoiding him most of the time.

So the actual unedited transcript of the 911 call has been revealed? Every one of them I've read, from the various news sites, has been different.

It wasn't in the 911 transcripts. It's what the witness said in open court that Trayvon said to her. Everyone heard it. She is back on the stand this morning. She's being cross examined. To the defense attorney's credit, he is so far being good to a reluctant teenager. A lot of weight on this kid's shoulders.

[Michelle]

It wasn't in the 911 transcripts. It's what the witness said in open court that Trayvon said to her. Everyone heard it. She is back on the stand this morning. She's being cross examined. To the defense attorney's credit, he is so far being good to a reluctant teenager. A lot of weight on this kid's shoulders.

Oh, I thought when you were saying "Just as bad as what Zimmerman called him" it had been established as fact he actually did call him a racist name. Her original testimony to the police didn't mention anything of the kind as far as I remember...and the conversation seems to have expanded a great deal.

[+susieice]

It has. The defense is grilling the girl now about the cracker remark. It's being termed a racial event. Seems like both of them were name calling the other. The 911 transcript did establish that Z had called him a f..g a...e (sorry Saru) amongst other things. We'll have to wait and see where this goes.

[Regi]

She didn't want to go because she didn't want to see the body and she couldn't face his parents because they'd know she was the last person to ever speak to their son and he died on the phone after she did. What can you expect from a young, 17 yr old girl who has been thrust into the middle of a bad event she didn't ask to be a part of. She was a bit disrespectful but she isn't an adult who can manipulate out of sophistication. She's only 19 now. Her testimony sounded like an honest conversation between 2 teens in the manner that teens speak to each other. She was saying what Trayvon was saying to her at the time, which shows his frame of mind. He knew he was being followed and was scared.

Her testimony was also that Zimmerman didn't identify himself as a block watch person and that he said "what are you doing around here?" or something to that effect. She also said she heard Zimmerman tell Trayvon to get off the phone and that she heard Trayvon yell "get off of me". The times of this call and Zimmerman's cell calls coincide.

She has insisted that she will not come back in court tomorrow. I do feel sorry for this girl. So young to be involved in this. She tried hard not to be.

I agree with all of your analysis of her testimony. (Great insight, susieice!)

As luck would have it, I've been swamped and just this morning had time to listen to her direct testimony. Fascinating witness! (I admit, it brought tears when she testified that she didn't go to the wake because she didn't want to see the body, and then she felt guilty because it was disrespectful. I believe she's carried burden that those who haven't been there can only imagine.

Bottom line, I think she's the real thing; that with her, you get what you see, which I think, lends well to credibility.

I think there's a lot going on there with that young lady, and it's complicated, but I think I understand her.

The most important parts of her testimony to me was that she said Martin said "Oh, ****" (definitely not what one would expect if it were Martin who wanted to confront), the particular dialogue that followed, that she heard a bump which she interpreted as the speaker button Martin was wearing, and she described what sounded like a struggle in the grass. She heard Martin say something like "Get off. Get off".

Martin's cell phone was found near his body, which would appear to be where he dropped it during the struggle. (I highly doubt he'd purposefully drop it to the ground so that he could go attack Zimmerman... about 30' away.)

To me, just as paramount as her testimony, is it's correlation with the cell records and the location of the items found near Martin's body.

HUGE ISSUE APPARENT: Zimmerman claimed that when the police call ended, his position was the end of the sidewalk at Retreat View Circle....that he hung up with the operator and proceeded to head back to his vehicle, but.....it only takes about 23 seconds to take that walk (as indicated in the re-enactment) to just past the 'T', and the cell records show that he'd been off the phone for a full two minutes.

Edited June 27, 2013 by regi

[Bavarian Raven]

but.....it only takes about 23 seconds to take that walk (as indicated in the re-enactment) to just past the 'T', and the cell records show that he'd been off the phone for a full two minutes.

Maybe he stopped walking for some reason or another and stood in one place for a bit?

[Rafterman]

Any thoughts on this:

A teenage friend of Trayvon Martin was forced to admit today in the George Zimmerman murder trial that she did not write a letter that was sent to Martin's mother describing what she allegedly heard on a phone call with Martin moments before he was shot.

In a painfully embarrassing moment, Rachel Jeantel was asked to read the letter out loud in court. "Are you able to read that at all?" defense attorney Don West asked.

Jeantel, head bowed, eyes averted whispered into the court microphone, "Some but not all. I don't read cursive."

It sent a hush through the packed courtroom.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zimmerman-witness-cantt-read-letter-wrote-shooting/story?id=19504826#.UcyMTKyTXMg

That's a pretty strong hit to her credibility in my opinion.

[Michelle]

Personally, I've been waiting for something like that. I didn't think her crocodile tears were real and there are a too many holes in her story. There is no way she could have heard all of the things she said she did and her story got more elaborate by the day.

[Vincennes]

I watched all of J's testimony today and I really did believe what she was saying. For the last ten years I worked in a maximum security juvenile prison, kids between 14 and 21. The pace of her conversation might be different than what you are used to but it seemed to me to be quite genuine in the way the kids do converse. You have to take into consideration that she has probably spent little to no time outside of her neighborhood and has little experience with Caucasian dialect/accent. I felt that her "hostility" was fear-based on the fact she must have felt terribly out of place and afraid that her inability to express herself more completely in her own accent would reflect on her intelligence. I don't think she waivered at all in what she was saying. She might not have understood that every word was critical and varied a little in the way she said it....but the bottom line was always the same. I was just surprised that the prosecution had not prepared her a little better in what to expect.

[+DieChecker]

She's a liar, three times over, at least. She shouldn't even be allowed to testify at all, but she's almost the only big deal evidence the Prosecution has.

[F3SS]

Credible? That's retarded.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jMwPtgUOPzQ&sns=em

[F3SS]

She's a liar, three times over, at least. She shouldn't even be allowed to testify at all, but she's almost the only big deal evidence the Prosecution has.

I think it's funny. Prosecution had an entire year to put this together and as long as Zimmerman doesn't stand up from his seat and do his impression of a Michael Richards standup comedy show I can't see how the defense can blow this one.

[docyabut2]

Zimmeron also has a high pitch voice, so when she said she heard the voice say get off of me, it could have been Zimmermon`s,The guy did get beat up.

Edited June 27, 2013 by docyabut2

[Regi]

I watched all of J's testimony today and I really did believe what she was saying. For the last ten years I worked in a maximum security juvenile prison, kids between 14 and 21. The pace of her conversation might be different than what you are used to but it seemed to me to be quite genuine in the way the kids do converse. You have to take into consideration that she has probably spent little to no time outside of her neighborhood and has little experience with Caucasian dialect/accent. I felt that her "hostility" was fear-based on the fact she must have felt terribly out of place and afraid that her inability to express herself more completely in her own accent would reflect on her intelligence. I don't think she waivered at all in what she was saying. She might not have understood that every word was critical and varied a little in the way she said it....but the bottom line was always the same. I was just surprised that the prosecution had not prepared her a little better in what to expect.

Awesome post!

With all her difficulties associated with language clearly apparent, West asked her to describe the sound of grass.

The other def. attn. later asked witness Lauer (a 9-1-1 caller) to describe scuffling sounds and he said 'almost like movement on grass?"

[+susieice]

Any thoughts on this:

A teenage friend of Trayvon Martin was forced to admit today in the George Zimmerman murder trial that she did not write a letter that was sent to Martin's mother describing what she allegedly heard on a phone call with Martin moments before he was shot.

In a painfully embarrassing moment, Rachel Jeantel was asked to read the letter out loud in court. "Are you able to read that at all?" defense attorney Don West asked.

Jeantel, head bowed, eyes averted whispered into the court microphone, "Some but not all. I don't read cursive."

It sent a hush through the packed courtroom.

http://abcnews.go.co...26#.UcyMTKyTXMg

That's a pretty strong hit to her credibility in my opinion.

While it shows that the girl isn't over educated, it also shows she does not have the ability to manipulate testimony against a defense attorney. She never denied that she notified no one of the phone call until contacted later. She did not want to be a part of this. I don't think you can discredit the parts of her testimony you don't like but espouse the ones that you do. Either the kid is for real or she isn't. I had to leave (work is so in the way) so I'll have to wait to see the whole testimony.

Edited June 28, 2013 by susieice

[+susieice]

Awesome post!

With all her difficulties associated with language clearly apparent, West asked her to describe the sound of grass.

The other def. attn. later asked witness Lauer (a 9-1-1 caller) to describe scuffling sounds and he said 'almost like movement on grass?"

Did Z not say in his statement that they were on concrete? What's up with the grass all of a sudden?

[Aaronsmom]

I strongly disagree that a person's level of literacy reflects anything about his or her character or credibility. The two things are not at all analogous. Richard Nixon and all his Watergate cronies were totally literate (and well-educated) but they proved to be a cabal of lying crooks. OTOH, a person who can't read or write, or doesn't do either very well, can be a truthful person who gives truthful testimony on a witness stand. There is no correlation between literacy and honesty. I only heard some of Miss Jeantel's testimony, but what I did heard sounded believable to me. I didn't pick up anything from her tone, text or story that rang dishonest.

[+and-then]

Exactly, you cannot provoke a situation and then say you're defending yourself.

Slight question, how simple do you think it is to provoke a gang banger to actually attack a non gang banger?

If you do the opposite:

I could purposely walk into a rich and wealthy neighborhood, and stand in the street. If any of the celebrities drives towards me I could spray them down and kill them, hey I was defending myself against their vehicle.

Want another?

I could walk into a gun range, go all the way down range and stand in front of a target.. If anyone walks into that lane and reaches for their weapon I can spray them down because hey, i'm just defending myself...

Again!

I could walk into a police station with a loaded machine gun, and if any of those cops draw their guns I can rip them to shreds because hey... Im just defendng myself

One more?

I can walk into a elementary school with an AK47, and if that damn teacher tries to stab me with a pencil I'll let her have my banana clip, but its ok.. just defending myself man.

Or how about instead of hypotheticals we stick to fact?

He'll follow someone who he already said he suspect to be dangerous, reach for his pockets when they ask what his problem is.. and if that fcker tries to fight to stay alive... He'll put a single bullet in that fckers chest.. But hey, he was just defending himself.

Yeah.. Idk.. I think provoking a problem and then defending yourself from it is a bit wrong... Maybe i'm crazy but I guess that's why the law agrees with me?

You might want to back away from the caffeine....wow.... blanket statements of the sort that if x happens then y NEVER can be done, when working within the legal system is dodgy. I don't care WHAT the letter of the law says. YOU were not there, neither was I. YOU have staked out a position that says once this thing got going, Z deserved to die - if that was T's intent, JUST BECAUSE HE WAS FOLLOWING HIM. That was his only "crime", he was following him. So if I follow you and have the audacity to reach clumsily for my phone as you approach me with obvious hostile intent (apparently) then you have a right to KILL me? What kind of world do you live in? You know what - never mind that I really don't care. Rave on as long as you like about this business. Unless something a lot more convincing than what has been presented comes forward I hope Z is acquitted and then let it begin - maybe it's time for an airing of this issue after all.

[F3SS]

Did Z not say in his statement that they were on concrete? What's up with the grass all of a sudden?

Fun fact: Often times grass may be found very near concrete sidewalks, driveways, curbs and streets in residential neighborhoods.

[+susieice]

If you saw the photos entered into evidence in court, Martin is on his stomach when police arrive. Could pick up grass stains like that. The policeman who first arrived said he turned him over to initiate CPR. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and they were on the sidewalk, how did they get in the grass? Zimmerman must have gotten up at some point. The crime scene photos show the body isn't near the sidewalk.

Edited June 28, 2013 by susieice

[+and-then]

If you saw the photos entered into evidence in court, Martin is on his stomach when police arrive. Could pick up grass stains like that. The policeman who first arrived said he turned him over to initiate CPR. If Martin was on top of Zimmerman, and they were on the sidewalk, how did they get in the grass? Zimmerman must have gotten up at some point. The crime scene photos show the body isn't near the sidewalk.

But if Z had been on top and shot him through the pump (as he did) you know that the struggle ended at that moment. A round through the heart shuts everything down - and RIGHT THEN.... so how could T have been on his stomach? OTOH if Z's account is true and T was on top beating him and he shot him through the heart then the young man would have flopped onto him and he would have had to climb out from under, no? Another point from the testimony is the account of a "soft" or "quiet" voice.... wouldn't you admit that Z's voice is quite soft? I would be interested to hear a side by side of both their voices at conversational tone.

[Bavarian Raven]

shot him through the pump (as he did) you know that the struggle ended at that moment.

Heart shot wouldnt be an instant kill (always), from what I've studied and read in biology and kin classes, but it could be fatal in seconds. That being said, the shot person could have still staggered a few steps, etc, had a few seconds to move somewhat. Nothing is ever clear cut. :/