Will We Ever Understand Consciousness?

[SHaYap]

you can't use consciousness to evaluate consciousness ... a mirror cannot see a mirror ...

is the mind aware of us or is it us that is aware of the mind ?

~

[Frank Merton]

I think a mirror could analyze itself, but it would need some equipment.

[Frank Merton]

Can we ever experience a tree? I think what we experience is some of the effects of the presence of a tree near us, and even these are almost entirely personal.

[StarMountainKid]

you can't use consciousness to evaluate consciousness ... a mirror cannot see a mirror

When we evaluate consciousness, is this evaluation consciousness? Wouldn't our evaluation be a lot of words written down and some chemical symbols and equations perhaps, but would these marks on paper bring us any closer to our understanding of the experience of consciousness?

is the mind aware of us or is it us that is aware of the mind

I think the mind can create many facets for itself. "Us" being aware of the mind is one of them. If the mind is aware of us, then what is the mind? In this sense, the mind would be something separate fro the "us", something that the "us" cannot become aware of, something autonomous that the "us" has no control of.

The sub-conscious mind operates unbeknownst to consciousness. Does this mind control our consciousness, or does our consciousness control this mind? What creates thought, then places these thoughts in our consciousness?

I do not consciously think a thought that produces thought, so in my view, mind is just mind and consciousness is just consciousness, and everything works together as one system. When we try to analyze all of this, it is still the mind analyzing itself by using thought, the mirror trying to reflect itself.

I think the mind understands itself and consciousness understands itself quite well. Thought and analysis just get in the way of this kind of understanding, which I consider a more accurate understanding than theories and opinions.

I think a mirror could analyze itself, but it would need some equipment

Can we ever experience a tree? I think what we experience is some of the effects of the presence of a tree near us, and even these are almost entirely personal.

I'm trying to say what separates the tree from me are my thoughts about the tree. Without this separation, does my consciousness become the tree?

[SHaYap]

~snip

I do not consciously think a thought that produces thought, so in my view, mind is just mind and consciousness is just consciousness, and everything works together as one system. When we try to analyze all of this, it is still the mind analyzing itself by using thought, the mirror trying to reflect itself.

~snip

If "everything works together as one system" does it means it is all separate in the system ? If so where is the separation ?

If it is "the mind analyzing itself by using thought" then is the mind thoughts or are the thoughts mind ?

How does a mirror succeeds in achieving "trying to reflect itself" much less "reflecting itself" ?

~

[StarMountainKid]

If "everything works together as one system" does it means it is all separate in the system ? If so where is the separation ?

If it is "the mind analyzing itself by using thought" then is the mind thoughts or are the thoughts mind ?

How does a mirror succeeds in achieving "trying to reflect itself" much less "reflecting itself" ?

When I wrote, "Everything works together as one system", I mean mind can manifest itself in different ways. Thoughts, ideas, imagination (it can create pictures in consciousness), emotions, memories, physical action...stuff like that. But all this is still one mind that is doing this. We only have one mind, but it is very versatile.

Secondly, I would say mind is thoughts and thoughts are mind. Mind expresses thoughts as internal words, but thought begins in the mind pre-linguistically. We can consciously experience these pre-linguistic thoughts, as well. This is similar to physical actions we perform without having to think about them beforehand. We can have an idea come to mind that is not in linguistic form.

Thirdly, lol. I think I was thinking about another thread about mirrors. I'm spreading myself too thin with all these threads I'm trying to think about! What I was trying to say was, when the mind tries to analyze itself it goes 'round and 'round. It can be productive for the mind to try to watch itself and try to figure itself out, but in the end it sort of is like a mirror trying to reflect itself. The totality of mind can only be "experienced" when it is left alone to do what it does.

[SHaYap]

~snip

Secondly, I would say mind is thoughts and thoughts are mind.

~snip

Just one thing ... this is contradictory .... in more ways than one

~

[StarMountainKid]

Secondly, I would say mind is thoughts and thoughts are mind.

ust one thing ... this is contradictory .... in more ways than one

Why is this contradictory? What is mind but all the ways it expresses itself?

[SHaYap]

Why is this contradictory? What is mind but all the ways it expresses itself?

"I would say mind is thoughts and thoughts are mind."

is not the same though in words it sounds the same ... give it some thought ... it would be better for you ... seriously ... better than I pointing to you ...

you are on to something ... independent of paths ... it is a very good thing ....

the zen equivalent would be ... the flag fluttering in the wind ... is it the flag that "move" or is it "you" that is the "move" ?

~

[sutemi]

Is consciousness our awareness, or does our awareness reside within consciousness? In the same sense, do thought occurs within consiousness, as well as recalled memories, emotions, knowledge and physical states (the sense of touch, pain)? Or are these things consciousness itself?

If we would be unaware of our sensory perceptions, thoughts, emotions, etc., would our consciousness still exist?

I think sometimes it is better to question than to state theories, beliefs and opinions. Someone once asked the question, what is the mind between two thoughts? If our minds were to become totally silent and empty, would we begin to gain some understanding of what fundamental consciousness is for ourselves?

Hi SMK, Your right when the mind becomes silent/empty then we can experience beyond the veil /illusion mind creates and then the mind becomes a mirrror so we can experience our true selves. for those who havent seen this short film it says so much about what we could achieve and experience in the stillness of mind through the art of meditation.

"If the doors of perception where cleansed everything would appear to man as it is, Infinite". William Blake

[Dakotabre]

I doubt we could ever do this 'humanly'. A couple of scientists at different times, were successfully able to transplanted the head of a monkey onto the body of another monkey. In both cases the monkey could not move it's limbs, but did live for a couple of days and could drink water from a straw.. 'IF' we could do this to a human... then we could ask the human (after transplanting the head) if they were still 'themselves', Did they still have their memories? Did they know who they were? etc... I think this would be a pretty cool experiment.

[spud the mackem]

Just curious, how long are you concious and aware, after you stop breathing,and where does your brain electricity go.

[danielost]

Just curious, how long are you concious and aware, after you stop breathing,and where does your brain electricity go.

The brain controls the body. It does not house the concionsec.

[spud the mackem]

The brain controls the body. It does not house the concionsec.

So...where do you keep your consciousness ?...maybe in Your big toe !

[Frank Merton]

Your consciousness is not a thing, but a self-perpetuating process, like the flame of a candle or a wave on the water or an electromagnetic wave. We presume but really don't understand how this is generated by brain activity.

[spud the mackem]

Your consciousness is not a thing, but a self-perpetuating process, like the flame of a candle or a wave on the water or an electromagnetic wave. We presume but really don't understand how this is generated by brain activity.

Yep we know that Frank,but it seems that some people think its a little "thingy" which is kept somewhere.

[Frank Merton]

If its a thingy somewhere, is it conscious, and where is its consciousness kept?

[markdohle]

Yep we know that Frank,but it seems that some people think its a little "thingy" which is kept somewhere.

I keep mine in a match box, in my top drawer, that way I fell better, it being safe and snug.

Edited June 8, 2013 by markdohle

[StarMountainKid]

From the above several posts I'm getting the idea that consciousness is sort of like a pet. It's "my" consciousness, and I have to take care of it. Keep it from thinking bad thoughts, reward it when it comes up with something nice, keep it comfortable so it's pleasant to live with.

In a sense this is true. Maybe we love and stroke our opinions and beliefs because they're good companions and they love us in return.

When my consciousness behaves badly it makes me feel bad. Sometimes I punish it for misbehaving, sometimes I try to sooth it back into a healthy balance so it can please me in its happy playfulness.

Thanks, guys, for the idea.

[Frank Merton]

Hmmm, not a bad idea. We understand from quantum mechanics that waves (processes) have particle-nature.

When we watch our stream of consciousness, as it is called, we can see that it is pushed this way and that by all sorts of things, including our wills and our ethical standards, and that what happens to it changes it all the time, both for the good and for the bad. This is one way to look at karma -- merit comes from things that improve it and negative karma from things that harm it.

The point is to be mindful of it -- to pay attention to where it is going and what it tends to want to do.

[SHaYap]

'is like' does not means it is .......

~

[Frank Merton]

An empty mind is empty. The objective is calm, not emptiness. I assume everyone knows this, but I feel it is important that it be said.

[spud the mackem]

An empty mind is empty. The objective is calm, not emptiness. I assume everyone knows this, but I feel it is important that it be said.

Your mind can never be empty,(unless you are unconcious or dead),peace and tranquility means that you are thinking about it.Your mind is active even when sleeping,and if you hear a strange noise when asleep your mind will come alert and you will awake wondering whats happening.

[Frank Merton]

Well it is no doubt true that the brain is always active. It is possible though to empty your mind -- in fact I had a teacher who saw that as a useful exercise.

Mindfulness (that you refer to) is not quite an empty mind. Avoiding taking a peek takes practice.

[SHaYap]

there is nothing wrong with 'words' or 'definitions' as long as one knows where the 'words' and 'definitions' ends and reality begins ...

.