Atlantis was in Green Sahara

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Trough human history climate was like switch on off for civilization. Especially in Sahara. Earliest humans that we know who lived in Sahara were there 130 000 years ago. Then came droughts then wet climate so people move back and forth in Sahara. (Sahara pump theory).Neolithic subpluvial or holocene wet phase is period from 7500 to 3500-300 BC of rainy and wet climate in north Africa. It was last period of Green Sahara which was full of deep lakes, fertile climate, elephants, giraffes, oak wood, with 2 meters high fishermen Kiffians whos ancestors were Cromagnons and Tenerian culture.During Mousterian Pluvial (rainy period 50 000-30 000 BC) there was even lions,crocodiles. Burial site at Gobero in central Niger where we found burials from Kiffian culture (9700 BC) and Tenerian culture (6500-4500 BC). Why Tenerian to bury their dead in the exact same spot as the Kiffians thousands of years earlier? Tenerians recolonised Gobero lake area about 7500 BC when rains returned. We can argued where Kiffians went when drought came. Tenerians were much smaller then Kiffians. Their skulls dont link them with any known population. Since we found pollen on their graves we can conclude that they were burried with a flowers. Tenerians as Kiffians vanished possibly following the animals elsewhere. Around 4500 years ago Gobero was perfect place for hunting. Water dried up so animals gather around pockets of wetland. Also Acacus Mountains in Libya is known for rock art dating from 12000 BC. Circa 3900 BC happened 5.9 kiloyear event, aridification of Green Sahara. At that point people migrate from Sahara to Nile valley. Then you must ask your self is J.A.West right when he said that „Egyptian civilisation was not a 'development', it was a legacy.“? Especially when we know that thousands years before Egyptians mummified their deads that mummies were created in Libya at Uan Muhuggiag. Small boy mummy was found 1958 by Fabrizio Mori and it was dated to 3500 BC. Interestingly we found there dog headed figures art similar to Egyptian mummification God Anubis. Libya have always been interesting. In southwest Libya at Fezzan oases which was surounded by sand between 500 BC to 500 AD population of 100 000 people lived there. Its quite interesting when we know that there are years without rain at all. Imagine. Its interesting that scientists think that trough our history people move back and forth in Sahara yet that after 5.9 kiloyear event people didnt migrate elsewhere but rather stay in desert. That they move from fish to livestock holding then switching to agriculture. Such as Garmatians.Herodotus said that „Garamantes also practices elephant, Ostrich hunting, and they are brave warriors chasing the Ethiopians-cave dwellers-by chariots drawn by horses”. Their capital was oval shape-Garma 5km radius. Garmatians have had irrigation system with which they raised wheat, barley, date palms and olives.

To be continue...

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Now, beside what I wrote, I will try to give evidence for such claim.

I will now post maps which are probably (my suggestion) copied from some earlier maps.

In those maps you will not see just Greean Sahara. You will see Atlantis as well. (In red circle)

1.1489. Albino de Canepa. Biblioteca James Ford Bell

Edited June 1, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

2.1476.Francesco de Benincasa. Biblioteca Pública, Génova

[Big Bad Voodoo]

3. 1497. Judah Ibn Zara. Biblioteca Apostólica Vaticana

[Big Bad Voodoo]

4. 1339. Angelino Dulcert. Biblioteca Nacional, París

[Abramelin]

From the "Serer" thread I once started:

The creation myth of the Serer people is intricately linked to the first trees created on Planet Earth by Roog. Earth's formation began with a swamp. The Earth was not formed until long after the creation of the first three worlds : the waters of the underworld; the air which included the higher world (i.e. the sun, the moon and the stars) and earth. Roog is the creator and fashioner of the Universe and everything in it. The creation is based on a mythical cosmic egg and the principles of chaos.

---

There are slightly different and competing versions of the myth. However, there are more similarities than differences, and the differences complement each other in the greater understanding of Serer creation mythology. They all posits that, the Universe and everything in it were created by Roog (or Koox among the Cangin), and the creation of Planet Earth was a result of a swamp which the first tree grew within. The first three worlds created through a mythical egg and under the principles of chaos were : the waters of the underworld, the air including the higher world and earth. These three were the first primordial worlds created by the supreme being through thought, speech and action. Planet Earth was not created until long after the creation of these worlds.

http://en.wikipedia....r_creation_myth

Now compare that with this map of a green Sahara I posted earlier:

A map of what the Sahara was like 8,000 to 11,000 years ago, revealing rivers, lakes, swamps and fan-shaped deposits where rivers emptied out. The dots indicate where various kinds of pottery were found.

http://www.msnbc.msn...-africa-theory/

http://www.livescien...-populated.html

You see? A concentration of swamps in/near the Tassili area, the area where they are supposed to have come from, and where I think the Ancient Egyptians came from too.

.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

5. 1426. Battista Becario. Biblioteca Estatal Baviera, Múnich

[Big Bad Voodoo]

6. 1492. Jorge de Aguiar. Unviersidad de Yale

Here you dont see Green Sahara but there is mysterious city on lake.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

You see that river is on some maps almost big like Nile. And sometimes have many rivers around. Which might be interpert as cirlces.

7.1380. Guillem Soler.Biblioteca Nacional, París

[Big Bad Voodoo]

On some maps "Atlantis" is bigger then Vienna.

8.Final s.XIV. Anónimo (taller Cresques). Biblioteca Nacional, Nápole

This map is intereting because we see Red sea is red as ancient paint it.

Suggesting that might be copy.

[Abramelin]

Maybe you should read this old thread:

Atlantis-Bakhu: challenging new hypothesis

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=139191&hl=%20bakhu&st=0

http://www.wrl-inc.org/projects/atlantis-bakhu.html

.

Edited June 1, 2013 by Abramelin

[Big Bad Voodoo]

9. 1482. Grazioso Benincasa. Biblioteca Universitaria, Bolonia

Look for example this map. Atlantis in Sahara and no cities in Brittania. Which could suggest this was quite big city.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Abramelin I will read your links then I will respond.

Edited June 1, 2013 by the L

[jaylemurph]

Trough human history climate was like switch on off for civilization. Especially in Sahara. Earliest humans that we know who lived in Sahara were there 130 000 years ago. Then came droughts then wet climate so people move back and forth in Sahara. (Sahara pump theory).Neolithic subpluvial or holocene wet phase is period from 7500 to 3500-300 BC of rainy and wet climate in north Africa. It was last period of Green Sahara which was full of deep lakes, fertile climate, elephants, giraffes, oak wood, with 2 meters high fishermen Kiffians whos ancestors were Cromagnons and Tenerian culture.During Mousterian Pluvial (rainy period 50 000-30 000 BC) there was even lions,crocodiles. Burial site at Gobero in central Niger where we found burials from Kiffian culture (9700 BC) and Tenerian culture (6500-4500 BC). Why Tenerian to bury their dead in the exact same spot as the Kiffians thousands of years earlier? Tenerians recolonised Gobero lake area about 7500 BC when rains returned. We can argued where Kiffians went when drought came. Tenerians were much smaller then Kiffians. Their skulls dont link them with any known population. Since we found pollen on their graves we can conclude that they were burried with a flowers. Tenerians as Kiffians vanished possibly following the animals elsewhere. Around 4500 years ago Gobero was perfect place for hunting. Water dried up so animals gather around pockets of wetland. Also Acacus Mountains in Libya is known for rock art dating from 12000 BC. Circa 3900 BC happened 5.9 kiloyear event, aridification of Green Sahara. At that point people migrate from Sahara to Nile valley. Then you must ask your self is J.A.West right when he said that „Egyptian civilisation was not a 'development', it was a legacy.“? Especially when we know that thousands years before Egyptians mummified their deads that mummies were created in Libya at Uan Muhuggiag. Small boy mummy was found 1958 by Fabrizio Mori and it was dated to 3500 BC. Interestingly we found there dog headed figures art similar to Egyptian mummification God Anubis. Libya have always been interesting. In southwest Libya at Fezzan oases which was surounded by sand between 500 BC to 500 AD population of 100 000 people lived there. Its quite interesting when we know that there are years without rain at all. Imagine. Its interesting that scientists think that trough our history people move back and forth in Sahara yet that after 5.9 kiloyear event people didnt migrate elsewhere but rather stay in desert. That they move from fish to livestock holding then switching to agriculture. Such as Garmatians.Herodotus said that „Garamantes also practices elephant, Ostrich hunting, and they are brave warriors chasing the Ethiopians-cave dwellers-by chariots drawn by horses”. Their capital was oval shape-Garma 5km radius. Garmatians have had irrigation system with which they raised wheat, barley, date palms and olives.

To be continue...

Well, of course they did. This was the era when Our Past Basset Masters roamed the Earth and Walked With Us, bestowing upon us their Holy and Drooly Excresences. I've been saying so for years: I'm just glad science is now agreeing with me.

--Jaylemurph

[Abramelin]

The -L- said:

"Such as Garmatians.Herodotus said that „Garamantes also practices elephant, Ostrich hunting, and they are brave warriors chasing the Ethiopians-cave dwellers-by chariots drawn by horses”. Their capital was oval shape-Garma 5km radius. Garmatians have had irrigation system with which they raised wheat, barley, date palms and olives."\

But they were nowhere near anything "Atlantis". They vanished from history as soon as their subterranean water supplies dried out.

[cormac mac airt]

Trough human history climate was like switch on off for civilization. Especially in Sahara. Earliest humans that we know who lived in Sahara were there 130 000 years ago. Then came droughts then wet climate so people move back and forth in Sahara. (Sahara pump theory).Neolithic subpluvial or holocene wet phase is period from 7500 to 3500-300 BC of rainy and wet climate in north Africa. It was last period of Green Sahara which was full of deep lakes, fertile climate, elephants, giraffes, oak wood, with 2 meters high fishermen Kiffians whos ancestors were Cromagnons and Tenerian culture.During Mousterian Pluvial (rainy period 50 000-30 000 BC) there was even lions,crocodiles. Burial site at Gobero in central Niger where we found burials from Kiffian culture (9700 BC) and Tenerian culture (6500-4500 BC). Why Tenerian to bury their dead in the exact same spot as the Kiffians thousands of years earlier? Tenerians recolonised Gobero lake area about 7500 BC when rains returned. We can argued where Kiffians went when drought came. Tenerians were much smaller then Kiffians. Their skulls dont link them with any known population. Since we found pollen on their graves we can conclude that they were burried with a flowers. Tenerians as Kiffians vanished possibly following the animals elsewhere. Around 4500 years ago Gobero was perfect place for hunting. Water dried up so animals gather around pockets of wetland. Also Acacus Mountains in Libya is known for rock art dating from 12000 BC. Circa 3900 BC happened 5.9 kiloyear event, aridification of Green Sahara. At that point people migrate from Sahara to Nile valley. Then you must ask your self is J.A.West right when he said that „Egyptian civilisation was not a 'development', it was a legacy.“? Especially when we know that thousands years before Egyptians mummified their deads that mummies were created in Libya at Uan Muhuggiag. Small boy mummy was found 1958 by Fabrizio Mori and it was dated to 3500 BC. Interestingly we found there dog headed figures art similar to Egyptian mummification God Anubis. Libya have always been interesting. In southwest Libya at Fezzan oases which was surounded by sand between 500 BC to 500 AD population of 100 000 people lived there. Its quite interesting when we know that there are years without rain at all. Imagine. Its interesting that scientists think that trough our history people move back and forth in Sahara yet that after 5.9 kiloyear event people didnt migrate elsewhere but rather stay in desert. That they move from fish to livestock holding then switching to agriculture. Such as Garmatians.Herodotus said that „Garamantes also practices elephant, Ostrich hunting, and they are brave warriors chasing the Ethiopians-cave dwellers-by chariots drawn by horses”. Their capital was oval shape-Garma 5km radius. Garmatians have had irrigation system with which they raised wheat, barley, date palms and olives.

To be continue...

Some may have, but it would be wrong to believe that all people moved from the Sahara into the Nile Valley. Many would have been just as well off, if not better, by moving either north towards the north African coast or further south into more hospitable areas.

Really? We know that "thousands" of years before Egypt the people of Uan Muhuggiag were mummifying their dead? As we've discussed before it's more like 100 years between Uan Muhuggiag and the oldest known human mummy in Egypt. Sounds like someone is being rather economical with their facts.

cormac

[Big Bad Voodoo]

lapsus linguae cormac. 100 years.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

So we all came on same conclusions on different evidences. That tells a lot. Link to thread you provided Abramelin is full of interesting info and a lot of personal attacks.

Its quite amazing that in 6000 BC Mt.Etna cause tsunami as Maria Pareschi suggest/proove. Especially that only in hour and a half Benghazi would be hit. And

A volcano avalanche in Sicily 8,000 years ago triggered a devastating tsunami taller than a 10-story building that spread across the entire Mediterranean Sea, slamming into the shores of three continents in only a few hours

…tsunami's waves reached heights of up to 130 feet and maximum speeds of up to 450 mph, making it more powerful than the Indonesian tsunami that killed more than 180,000 people in 2004.

That would erase coast. But would that have effect on inland Africa. My misterious city is inland. And its on lake.

Reading this thread (and links in that thread) I stumble upon info about tamed animals as proove for Atlantis. Especially when we know that Plato mentioned elephants which we can easily find in Africa even today. How come that one civilization tamed animals before modern historians teach us? Are any evidences for taming animals before then modern history suggest? That is a question. Recently I read one article, which I cant find anymore, where one archaeologist argue that people first tamed gazeles then goat in middle east. I always stressed out that horse is not necceserly firt mount. Finns in mediveal tamed deers. Some historical records mention even that they ride deers. But lets go on concrete:

Speaking of the Late Paleolithic populations of the Nile Valley, Smith (1976) wrote: "It has also been suggested that there may have been some tentative efforts at controlling or taming wild cattle." Depictions of cattle are engraved on the cliffs near Gebel Silsila, but it is unproven that the artists were Paleolithic. Of this we have no doubt: herding cattle would have been extremely difficult, if not impossible, without the aid of the horse.

While excavating Franchthi Cave near the Bay of Argos, in the lowest stratum dating from 20,000 years, Dr. Jacobsen discovered sheep, goat, cattle, pig, and horse bones. Although he expresses doubt that these represented domesticated species, there were no doubts expressed about those found in the early Mesolithic strata directly above. These bones, he observed, were without doubt those of "domesticated varieties". (Jacobsen, 1976)

At Isturitz Cave in French Basque country, in the Magdalenian levels, the leg bone of a reindeer was unearthed bearing evidence of a serious fracture that had healed. It was estimated that the animal had lived for at least two years following the fracture. (Hadingham, 1979) What are the chances of this animal having evaded predators for such an extended period, unless it had been tamed and protected?

Now on Plato and Critias.

In the temple they

placed statues of gold: there was the god himself standing in a

chariot-the charioteer of six winged horses-and of such a size that he

touched the roof of the building with his head; around him there

were a hundred Nereids riding on dolphins

…

also

two horses and riders for them, and a pair of chariot-horses without a

seat, accompanied by a horseman who could fight on foot carrying a

small shield, and having a charioteer who stood behind the man-at-arms

to guide the two horses.

Conclusion: Atlanteans were charioteers.

and there were separate baths for women, and for horses and cattle,

….

there were many temples built and dedicated to many gods; also gardens

and places of exercise, some for men, and others for horses

Conclusion: They have tamed horses and cattle. I doubt that they will create baths for wild horses and cattle. Or gardens. Maybe they have had Zoo.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

The -L- said:

"Such as Garmatians.Herodotus said that „Garamantes also practices elephant, Ostrich hunting, and they are brave warriors chasing the Ethiopians-cave dwellers-by chariots drawn by horses”. Their capital was oval shape-Garma 5km radius. Garmatians have had irrigation system with which they raised wheat, barley, date palms and olives."\

But they were nowhere near anything "Atlantis". They vanished from history as soon as their subterranean water supplies dried out.

I think that we cant know exact moment when Atlantis disapeared or when Garmantans appeared. Or we can? So I try to mentioned anyone near by area of that city on map which might be interesting.

Also Garmatians were charioteer as Atlanteans.

Edited June 1, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Moreover, there were a great number of elephants in the

island; for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals,

both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also

for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for

the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

Conclusion: I doubt that Atlanteans have had Zoo (but I dont exclude Idea). But its obvious we talk about Africa (Because India is east of Greece). Whats also obvious that they have tamed those animals. Now I know sceptics will say what are evidences for taming annimals in Africa. I pick something: so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all. Critias, Plato. Now what is largest animal in Africa?

This 8,000 year old giraffe rock carving in DaBous, Niger in granite rock - giraffe has a leash.

Edited June 1, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I rest my case. I will comeback tommorow after I watched documentary.

Cormac, Abramelin, ..others...what do you say on maps? How come that they painted Sahara green?

What is that city in lake? Except "Atlantis".

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Before I go one more thing.

Tadrart Acacus

The paintings date from 12,000 BC to 100 AD and reflect cultural and natural changes in the area.

There are paintings and carvings of animals such as giraffes, elephants, ostriches and camels, but also of men and horses.

http://en.wikipedia..../Tadrart_Acacus

Edited June 1, 2013 by the L

[The Puzzler]

I rest my case. I will comeback tommorow after I watched documentary.

Cormac, Abramelin, ..others...what do you say on maps? How come that they painted Sahara green?

What is that city in lake? Except "Atlantis".

The city in the lake:

Western Nile (Senegal-Niger River) according to Muhammad al-Idrisi (1154)

Drawing from Classical legend and Arab sources, the "River of Gold" found its way into European maps in the 14th century. In the Hereford Mappa Mundi (c. 1300), there is a river labelled "Nilus Fluvius" drawn parallel to the coast of Africa, albeit without communication with Atlantic (it ends in a lake). It depicts some giant ants digging up gold dust from its sands, with the note "Hic grandes formice auream serican arenas".^[11] In the mappa mundi made by Pietro Vesconte for the c. 1320 atlas of Marino Sanuto, there is an unnamed river stemming from the African interior and opening in the Atlantic ocean. The 1351 Medici-Laurentian Atlas shows both the Egyptian Nile and the western Nile stemming from the same internal mountain range, with the note that "Ilic coligitur aureaum".^[12] The portolan chart of Giovanni da Carignano (1310s-20s) has the river with the label, iste fluuis exit de nilo ubi multum aurum repperitur.^[13]

In the more accurately-drawn portolan charts, starting with the 1367 chart of Domenico and Francesco Pizzigano and carried on in the 1375 Catalan Atlas, the 1413 chart of Mecia de Viladestes, etc. the "River of Gold" is depicted (if only speculatively), draining into the Atlantic Ocean somewhere just south of Cape Bojador. The legend of Cape Bojador as a terrifying obstacle, the 'cape of no return' to European sailors, emerged around the same time (possibly encouraged by Trans-Saharan traders who did not want to see their land route sidestepped by sea).

The river is frequently depicted with a great river island midway, the "Island of Gold", first mentioned by al-Masudi, and famously called "Wangara" by al-Idrisi and "Palolus" in the 1367 Pizzigani brothers chart. It is conjectured that this riverine "island" is in fact just the Bambuk-Buré goldfield district, which is practically surrounded on all sides by rivers - the Senegal river to the north, the Falémé River to the west, the Bakhoy to the east and the Niger and Tinkisso to the south.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/S%C3%A9n%C3%A9gal_River_drainage_basin

[The Puzzler]

In saying that that place might not be Atlantis, I do think the Sahara to West Africa is the place to look for remains of Atlantis. Into Spain as well.

Edited June 2, 2013 by The Puzzler

[cormac mac airt]

I rest my case. I will comeback tommorow after I watched documentary.

Cormac, Abramelin, ..others...what do you say on maps? How come that they painted Sahara green?

What is that city in lake? Except "Atlantis".

The lake you keep referring to would more likely be a river and from the position of its end on the north coast, on several of the maps you've posted, it would appear to be the Moulouya River in Morocco. This river does not traverse due south but actually in a south southwestern direction. It also doesn't appear to surround any islands and, considering the date of these maps, probably details information on medieval cities/forts on or near the river. Which makes any discussion of this being Atlantis a rather moot point.

cormac