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Jor-el

Homosexuality, sin, choice or biology?

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Jor-el

It's not a 'diplomatic' phrase, but one that reference the facts of the situation.

As a species we are a rather strange one. Many species on the planet go through mating cycles (often anually), often reproducing as often as possible between sexual maturty through to death. If we were such a species, acting on pure biological instinct, you could have a point.

As such, we as a species choose to when we have children. That first child can be the only one, or the firt of several. it is completely down to the choices of the indivduals involved. Some people choose to have no children, some 8 or more. But, fact is, it's all down to choice. We are not driven by a biological impulse to have children a often as possible. And, like unlike most species, there's really no need. We have no natural predators who eat us. Our told population is over 7 billion, so we're not in danger of extinction. On top of that gay people make up less than 10% of the population. With 90% being hetrosexual and the vast majority being able to have children, well, the excuse to 'get rid of it' really seems bizare.

So ultimately, the biologial reasoning you use is a dead end.

There's also the point that, thanks to science, gay people can have children to reproduce if they wish.

Does your body know the difference from living in a technological society with birth control and artificial birth insemination and living in the wild?

You have all the merit in justifying your position, but mine is equally valid. You are taken in by the bright lights of our society, you seem to think that somehow separates you from nature. It does not. Even now our culture merely covers the biological imperative of biology.

Every time you fall in love, it is biology at play. Every time you think about sex (and for guys that is a major portion of the day) or actually have sexual relations, it is biology at play. To think anything else is to delude yourself.

Edited by Jor-el

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shadowhive

Does your body know the difference from living in a technological society with birth control and artificial birth insemination and living in the wild?

How could my body 'know' anything?

You have all the merit in justifying your position, but mine is equally valid. You are taken in by the bright lights of our society, you seem to think that somehow separates you from nature. It does not. Even now our culture merely covers the biological imperative of biology.

Every time you fall in love, it is biology at play. Every time you think about sex (and for guys that is a major portion of the day) or actually have sexual relations, it is biology at play. To think anything is to delude yourself.

Like I said, we have a choice when we have children. That's not an opinion, that's fact. We do not suddenly become overcome with lust every spring and imperganate a chosen female. Nor is every female a baby making machine. We are creatures thta, unlike most, choose when to have children and chooses how many we have. Again, not an opinion, that's fact. That seperates us from the vast majority of animals on this planet.

Every time we fall in love or think about sex, that does not lead to sex either.

I do think you're deluding yourself over this a little.

Let me ask you something. Since the vast majority of humans are hetroexual and can thus 'fulfil that biological purpoe' does it really matter if the rest do not? And if it does, than why? After all even among those capable of breeding, that doesn't mean they will.

Jor el, there's more to life than just having children, far more.

Edited by shadowhive
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Irrelevant

If Homosexuality is not a choice , why are woman turning to it in droves after there marriages break up, unable to find a man who can understand them they then find this path.

and what of free will Free Will? yes FREE WILL....to say your not given this blessing and claim you dont have this is the counter from those who practice Homosexuality as a lifestyle.

for all the proof that the homosexuals claim that they are born that way there is no verifiable and repeatable proof, in that we can not know a lifeforms chosen path before its walked, DNA can not show this... .likewise theres no proof in DNA murderes are born that way, there is no proof in DNA rightous are likewise born that way. people take free will out of the debate.

To denie you have been given free will is a major cause for concern.

Does not the mind control the flesh? but the Homosexuals claim the flesh controls the mind, the true principal (as shown by Saint Paul: the law in my members is at war ...wretched man i am) is that we all have to rise above our physical desires,

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shadowhive

If Homosexuality is not a choice , why are woman turning to it in droves after there marriages break up, unable to find a man who can understand them they then find this path.

Where exactly are women turning lesbian 'in droves'?

That saidd, some gay people in the past did repress theselves and get married, thining it would 'cure' them. In recent years they decidedbeing honest with themselves is better than not.

and what of free will Free Will? yes FREE WILL....to say your not given this blessing and claim you dont have this is the counter from those who practice Homosexuality as a lifestyle.

In terms of free will and sexual orientation, there's not much free will involved. But the there isn't in terms of sexual attraction anyway.

You're straight, that much is obvious. Are you attracted to every member of the opposite sex? No. Could you make yourself attracted to someone of the opposite sex you aren't attracted to? No. So as you can see, while you have free will, that doesn't mean you can chose who you are attracted to.

for all the proof that the homosexuals claim that they are born that way there is no verifiable and repeatable proof, in that we can not know a lifeforms chosen path before its walked, DNA can not show this... .likewise theres no proof in DNA murderes are born that way, there is no proof in DNA rightous are likewise born that way. people take free will out of the debate.

There's nothing confirmed yet because the research in the aea is still pretty new. There's many theories, but proving them takes time, time that there hasn't been yet.

To denie you have been given free will is a major cause for concern.

As said above, free will has nothing to do with sexual attraction or sexual orientation.

Does not the mind control the flesh? but the Homosexuals claim the flesh controls the mind, the true principal (as shown by Saint Paul: the law in my members is at war ...wretched man i am) is that we all have to rise above our physical desires,

Why should a gay person force themselves to be straight? Why should a gay person deny themselves love and companionship? Would you expect the same of straight people?

Edited by shadowhive

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darkmoonlady

OK sex is not just about reproduction in the natural world. Higher ordered mammals engage in sex (homosexual and heterosexual) not only for reproduction, they also do it for fun, comfort, if they're bored..you name it. So to say that it isn't a biological natural state is a fallacy made by those who are uncomfortable themselves with homosexual sex. Do like the bonobos do, if you don't like it, don't do it. Other than I don't see where the OP is attempting to address a question so much as have people agree with the supposition that it doesn't hold a biological need. That has been proven false, shown to be false and that the reason homosexuality is frowned upon at all is cultural bias.

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Ratte

Oh my, what has happened here?

If Homosexuality is not a choice , why are woman turning to it in droves after there marriages break up, unable to find a man who can understand them they then find this path.

Perhaps they were bisexual or pansexual beforehand? Also "in droves" is a drastic overstatement.

and what of free will Free Will? yes FREE WILL....to say your not given this blessing and claim you dont have this is the counter from those who practice Homosexuality as a lifestyle.

You're* This is one thing that really upsets me. When people call someone's sexuality a 'lifestyle'. I do not think the way I live my life is any different from a straight mans. I wake up in the morning, go to the restroom, wash my hands, eat (usually leftovers or cereal), go to work(or if I am out of work, look for a job), come home, play video games or get online, shower and then sleep. I just happen to find men, women and sometimes a mix of the two (transgender, genderqueer, etc.) attractive.

for all the proof that the homosexuals claim that they are born that way there is no verifiable and repeatable proof, in that we can not know a lifeforms chosen path before its walked, DNA can not show this... .likewise theres no proof in DNA murderes are born that way, there is no proof in DNA rightous are likewise born that way. people take free will out of the debate.

Born this way, baby! I wouldn't have chosen to be picked on in school and sometimes still today. Also, not everything is known about human biology. There very well may be a "gay gene". Why should it matter outside of a religious context that often denies science anyway?

To denie you have been given free will is a major cause for concern.

Does not the mind control the flesh? but the Homosexuals claim the flesh controls the mind, the true principal (as shown by Saint Paul: the law in my members is at war ...wretched man i am) is that we all have to rise above our physical desires,

We have to rise above our desires that would harm another. Me being with another man in no way hurts anyone.

As for free will... Really, if it was a matter of willing yourself to change your sexuality, don't you think people would? Let me tell you it's not fun to get a tooth knocked out because someone doesn't approve of who you are.

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Irrelevant

none of these arguments posed by them have any merit, you either have free will or you dont, if you dont think you do i advise going to the hospital right now as you lost control of your senses and getting yourself diagnosed...it would better if somebody can take you for your own safty also!. no thats silly i know, , but thats your argument!

i cant control my body....Born this way..Its Natural.

just one thing lacks in your debate...EVIDENCE. show me the DNA that differs thiose born gay to those Born straight? if this is the case then your a seperate species..a race apart, that there is not 2 types of humans ,there is four types then ,at least 4 types. ( this is your argument , if your born gay then you are born different biologicaly to straight humans..)

BTW, i simply repeating and clarifying your words back to you. theres no judgement here.

do you claim to be born biologicaly diffrent to straight humans ? since you have no free will ? These are the things you claim..

Edited by Irrelevant

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shadowhive

There's no point arguing with someone who can't understand the simple truth that free will has nothing to do with who you love, your sexual orientation or who you are attracted to.

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Pop It and Shove It

none of these arguments posed by them have any merit, you either have free will or you dont, if you dont think you do i advise going to the hospital right now as you lost control of your senses and getting yourself diagnosed...it would better if somebody can take you for your own safty also!. no thats silly i know, , but thats your argument!

i cant control my body....Born this way..Its Natural.

just one thing lacks in your debate...EVIDENCE. show me the DNA that differs thiose born gay to those Born straight? if this is the case then your a seperate species..a race apart, that there is not 2 types of humans ,there is four types then ,at least 4 types. ( this is your argument , if your born gay then you are born different biologicaly to straight humans..)

BTW, i simply repeating and clarifying your words back to you. theres no judgement here.

do you claim to be born biologicaly diffrent to straight humans ? since you have no free will ? These are the things you claim..

What a backward thought process. I'm sorry but it is and this is coming from a non-gay person. When exactly did you decide you were going to be straight? Yes, gays have freewill to choose to sleep with and love other guys but because they are naturally attracted to them. As you are to women. Do you think the animals simply "choose" to be gay? Baring in mind, a lot of people will say most wild animals act on instinct alone...Why would anyone "choose" to be gay considering all the hassle that (for a lot of them) comes with it. Man, some people lose their family over it...friends...it's clearly not a choice. And there's plennntttyy of evidence that says so.

http://en.wikipedia....n#Physiological

Edited by Heaven Is A Halfpipe
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White Crane Feather

I agree and that is not the point is it, because again this is a social argument.

Let us make distinction here, my argument has got nothing to do with accepting or rejecting homosexuality. It is purely based one thing alone. Biology.

That's really good. Because biology has little to say about sociology. You should distinguish the two. You happen to be talking with a person with a degree in a social science and a healthy understanding of biological sciences including lab work at a university. I have continued relentlessly to show you that biology does not hold that sexuality is purely about reproduction beyond endorphins gained from eating burgers with sugar coated ketchup. I hope you are not in the habit of ignoring certain facts.

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Arbenol

show me the DNA that differs thiose born gay to those Born straight? if this is the case then your a seperate species..a race apart, that there is not 2 types of humans ,there is four types then ,at least 4 types. ( this is your argument , if your born gay then you are born different biologicaly to straight humans..)

You do realise that many of our genes differ from person to person, don't you? Does that make us all different species? I'm really struggling to understand your thought processes here.

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Blink4567

Do you guys realize this thread is going no-where?

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Copasetic

Yes I know, before I started this thread I did some studying on the issue and I was at that wiki page myself. The point is that there is something that is not mentioned anywhere..

Prevalence.

If the norm is heterosexuality and not merely one of many different sexual orientations then it can equally be classified as a deviance from the norm, which suggests a genetic or hormonal imbalance or mutation, which could then be curable by genetic therapy, which will be soon available to many with a wider selection of possible alterations we can will on our offspring. from eye colour to sexual orientation.

Small minds see the world in blacks and whites, no surprise here.

Sexuality isn't strictly "homo" or "hetero". Human sexuality exists on a spectrum. There is no "norm" so to say.

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Copasetic

none of these arguments posed by them have any merit, you either have free will or you dont, if you dont think you do i advise going to the hospital right now as you lost control of your senses and getting yourself diagnosed...it would better if somebody can take you for your own safty also!. no thats silly i know, , but thats your argument!

i cant control my body....Born this way..Its Natural.

just one thing lacks in your debate...EVIDENCE. show me the DNA that differs thiose born gay to those Born straight? if this is the case then your a seperate species..a race apart, that there is not 2 types of humans ,there is four types then ,at least 4 types. ( this is your argument , if your born gay then you are born different biologicaly to straight humans..)

BTW, i simply repeating and clarifying your words back to you. theres no judgement here.

do you claim to be born biologicaly diffrent to straight humans ? since you have no free will ? These are the things you claim..

A separate species? Jesus christ, did you pay attention in high school biology? Ignorance....its what's for dinner I guess.

I mean no really, are you a poe?

Edited by Copasetic
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Ratte

none of these arguments posed by them have any merit, you either have free will or you dont, if you dont think you do i advise going to the hospital right now as you lost control of your senses and getting yourself diagnosed...it would better if somebody can take you for your own safty also!. no thats silly i know, , but thats your argument!

i cant control my body....Born this way..Its Natural.

So, me finding other men attractive is equivalent to a sudden onset of a debilitating illness? How quaint. Do you or do you not have a "type"? It's the same darn thing. You are blowing things way out of proportion.

just one thing lacks in your debate...EVIDENCE. show me the DNA that differs thiose born gay to those Born straight? if this is the case then your a seperate species..a race apart, that there is not 2 types of humans ,there is four types then ,at least 4 types. ( this is your argument , if your born gay then you are born different biologicaly to straight humans..)

I have blonde hair. My sister has brown hair. My genetic makeup differs from hers in that way. If every little difference were to make up a new category, there would be so many types... I am biologically different from my sister. Doesn't make me any less human than she.

Ya know, certain groups of people once thought black people and Native Americans were different species. Good thing we got that cleared up or I'd be a human/native hybrid instead of full blown human!

BTW, i simply repeating and clarifying your words back to you. theres no judgement here.

Because I totally didn't take offense to being called another species... Then again, it might be nice to be a species apart from hateful humans. Perhaps the humans will put me on a reserve with all the hardboiled eggs and coffee I could ever want...

do you claim to be born biologicaly diffrent to straight humans ? since you have no free will ? These are the things you claim..

I am different on a chemical level in the same way as I am not a clone, rather a haphazard mash up of genes that survived through the generations to make me. I love me. Most of the time.

I obviously have the will to argue with you.

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Paranoid Android

Does scientific consensus explain why then there is a preponderance of heterosexuality in nature (which includes mankind) and not of homosexuality?

Given that these conditions are said to be genetic and influence by environment, why then do we not see nature, in certain geographical areas, take an opposite tack to heterosexuality, merely statistically that would seem likely.

Because no two individuals of any species carry the exact same genetic outlines. Not even identical twins have identical genes. They may be similar, but there are variations. As such, heterosexuality is the primary "default" position because without the drive for heterosexual sex, then there is no procreation (unless the species is asexual, but most are not). If any geographical area did for some outlandish reason discover itself to be primarily homosexual, within two generations the species would die out in that area.
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darkmoonlady

none of these arguments posed by them have any merit, you either have free will or you dont, if you dont think you do i advise going to the hospital right now as you lost control of your senses and getting yourself diagnosed...it would better if somebody can take you for your own safty also!. no thats silly i know, , but thats your argument!

i cant control my body....Born this way..Its Natural.

just one thing lacks in your debate...EVIDENCE. show me the DNA that differs thiose born gay to those Born straight? if this is the case then your a seperate species..a race apart, that there is not 2 types of humans ,there is four types then ,at least 4 types. ( this is your argument , if your born gay then you are born different biologicaly to straight humans..)

BTW, i simply repeating and clarifying your words back to you. theres no judgement here.

do you claim to be born biologicaly diffrent to straight humans ? since you have no free will ? These are the things you claim..

So why are you straight?

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Irrelevant

Ignorance for dinner..i like that.

Dont brandish qualifications if you cant show what they amount to. I have honorary doctorates too.

I will point out to you halfpipe that shadow thinks parents should be allowed to have sex with there children, the one HE wants the state to give him, since He and His lover cant concieve, and why is that? Oh thats right, because the only place his Boyfriend could hope to concieve from is where the the origins of his debate comes from.

Backwards thought? I like that one too, buttocks thought would more appropriate from you however.

You got no evidence yet want laws overturned, but theres one law you can never overturn and thats the law of nature. A law established by my Father. As for why i desire woman ( and my wife and 3 children have passed, and i live chaste i might add BY CHOICE) is because this was what my father, community wrote into me. Gay is enviromental, no biology about it.( i couldnt care less about your Qual, mine are not given by man!) Theres no judgement here, except one, thats you shadow,but im praying foryou , and for those children you desire to harm that they be protected from you and those like you.

Edited by Irrelevant

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Irrelevant

Go on Shadow, tell us again in your own words about how incesst is right...enlighten the UM community about what you hold true in this regard..

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Odin11

I don't think the comparisons are equivalent. Do you think a person with green hair is the norm, or about someone with yellow eyes?

We are not talking of variation here, but of biological traits that are caused genetically due to mutation. It may not even be a gene that is the cause of homosexuality but other biological factors, in any other case where equivalent situations occur, we call them genetic disorders, why should we be calling homosexuality anything else?

Yellow eyes are actually a bad example as I have yellow eyes, well amber but it’s the same thing, which just goes to show that you don’t really understand what normal is or the amount of variation there can be.

Edited by Odin11

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Pop It and Shove It

Ignorance for dinner..i like that.

Dont brandish qualifications if you cant show what they amount to. I have honorary doctorates too.

I will point out to you halfpipe that shadow thinks parents should be allowed to have sex with there children, the one HE wants the state to give him, since He and His lover cant concieve, and why is that? Oh thats right, because the only place his Boyfriend could hope to concieve from is where the the origins of his debate comes from.

Backwards thought? I like that one too, buttocks thought would more appropriate from you however.

You got no evidence yet want laws overturned, but theres one law you can never overturn and thats the law of nature. A law established by my Father. As for why i desire woman ( and my wife and 3 children have passed, and i live chaste i might add BY CHOICE) is because this was what my father, community wrote into me. Gay is enviromental, no biology about it.( i couldnt care less about your Qual, mine are not given by man!) Theres no judgement here, except one, thats you shadow,but im praying foryou , and for those children you desire to harm that they be protected from you and those like you.

"Gay men and straight women have, on average, equally proportioned brain hemispheres. Lesbian women and straight men have, on average, slightly larger right brain hemispheres."

"The VIP SCN nucleus of the hypothalamus is larger in men than in women, and larger in gay men than in heterosexual men."

"The average size of the INAH-3 in the brains of gay men is approximately the same size as INAH 3 in women, which is significantly smaller, and the cells more densely packed, than in heterosexual men's brains."

"Gay men's brains respond differently to fluoxetine, a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor."

"The functioning of the inner ear and the central auditory system in lesbians and bisexual women are more like the functional properties found in men than in non-gay women (the researchers argued this finding was consistent with the prenatal hormonal theory of sexual orientation)."

"The suprachiasmatic nucleus was found by Swaab and Hopffman to be larger in gay men than in non-gay men, the suprachiasmatic nucleus is also known to be larger in men than in women."

And you still think it's purely environmental and zero biological? You've still failed to account for homosexuality in animals.,,yet you're talking about the law of nature. You argument is flawed.

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Irrelevant

cover your eyes!!! lol but its nature...

your points have been blown to smithers..*SNIP*

I fight for the rights of children ( who are inocent) as they have no law written into them but the laws we as society write, so i pray let society write the right laws, that society becomes a true society that raises children who to themselves be true according to there created purpose..

your done..goodbye.

Edited by Paranoid Android
Removed veiled insult

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Rlyeh

none of these arguments posed by them have any merit, you either have free will or you dont, if you dont think you do i advise going to the hospital right now as you lost control of your senses and getting yourself diagnosed...it would better if somebody can take you for your own safty also!. no thats silly i know, , but thats your argument!

i cant control my body....Born this way..Its Natural.

Nor can you, however it is clear you should already be in a mental hospital.

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spiritualghosthaunting

That religion is merely the patsy for a much wider human feeling against homosexuality. When religion is removed as in the case of Nazis and Communism, the homosexual community was still treated badly or even worse than badly.

Nazi Germany and Communist Russia were influenced by the negative teachings of their Christian past against homosexuals. Take that into account. If oldschool Christianity didn't have an issue with it, Germany and Russia wouldn't have thought about killing their gay brothers and sisters. The Nazi party was formed at a gay bar, S&M gay bar. Ironic isn't it.
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Ratte

Ignorance for dinner..i like that.

Hope you aren't talkin' 'bout me an' Shadowhive, cuz, between the two of us, you'll go hungry.

Dont brandish qualifications if you cant show what they amount to. I have honorary doctorates too.

Obviously not ones in spelling or grammar. I mean, I honestly can not tell who you are talking to sometimes.

I will point out to you halfpipe that shadow thinks parents should be allowed to have sex with there children, the one HE wants the state to give him, since He and His lover cant concieve, and why is that? Oh thats right, because the only place his Boyfriend could hope to concieve from is where the the origins of his debate comes from.

Their* Why shouldn't a homosexual couple be able to raise a child? I mean, having two dads is a whole heck of a lot better than being put through the foster care system. Jesus had two dads.

And HOLY COW! Shadowhive is gay? Dude! I wish I'd known sooner. I hope he looks like his avi. Grell is scrumptious. Yet... You seem to think he'd prefer Ciel.

Backwards thought? I like that one too, buttocks thought would more appropriate from you however.

Who is this one directed at? I think I missed someone's post. Sorry, whoever you are.

You got no evidence yet want laws overturned, but theres one law you can never overturn and thats the law of nature.

*sing-song voice* Seperation of church and sta~ate!

A law established by my Father. As for why i desire woman ( and my wife and 3 children have passed, and i live chaste i might add BY CHOICE) is because this was what my father, community wrote into me.

Oh man, seeing your kids go before you must be painful. If I read that right, I'm sorry to hear that you're all alone now.

Gay is enviromental, no biology about it.( i couldnt care less about your Qual, mine are not given by man!)

Seriously, where is your proof?! I didn't just wake up one day and go "duhhr, I LIKE BOTH BECAUSE I WANNA!" It's who I am. I've known for a very long time. Since I was about five. Not that I was sexually attracted to both, of course not. But I could play house with a boy or a girl and have fun imagining my life with them. My parents took me to church every Sunday since I was two months old. I may not be a Christian now, but I was always told that god is loving. God forgives. So, if that is the case, it really doesn't matter, now does it? Why are you wasting your time here? You have nothing to gain by telling us off. I, however, feel threatened. Of course I'm going to lash out when you are calling a group that I am part of all sorts of things.

Theres no judgement here, except one, thats you shadow,but im praying foryou , and for those children you desire to harm that they be protected from you and those like you.

What- I don't even- I must be missing posts or something because I never saw one in which Shadowhive said it was cool to harm children.

Oh, and I hate to burst your bubble, but there is incest in the bible. But, hey, as long as they are two consenting adults, who am I to judge?

And you better believe I will fight until my last breath for my right to marry Niki.

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