Edward Snowden NSA whistleblower

[Kowalski]

If one person claims they love our militaty and defense yet turns around and slams the NSA they are not being consistent.

It's one thing to support the people in our military. I have many members of my family in the military. My sister served in Afghanistan.

Slamming the NSA for spying on American citizens, which is AGAINST the Fourth Amendment, is a completely different matter....

[Clarakore]

Well just to be certain there is no issue I have with the NSA. Another thread should be devoted to its constitutionality if wanting to discuss that with others in depth. No issues here with that either.

As far as private contractors, yes, they should have less access. We should not rely on outsourcing so much.

Federalizing those workers and making them DoD employees would be safer for us.

[HollyDolly]

Edward Snowden Tells South China Morning Post: U.S. Has Been Hacking Hong Kong And China Since 2009

http://www.huffingto..._n_3430082.html

So he runs to a country that has their internet and phone monitored? Is he planning on staying there? Are they really more free than we are?

Then he tells them our government has been spying on theirs?

And we are still claiming he did this for the American people? Unsure how raising tensions, or attempting to, between us and China is good for our people. Unsure how telling them that is not giving information to our competitors.

Snowden is a megalomaniac.

If Snowden's motives were so pure as to let the American people know what's been going on that's one thing.He should have stayed here and faced the music,like Manning is.But no,he runs off to Hong kong(so much for his statement of trying to go to Iceland).Then all of a sudden he comes out with this business of the US spying on China,Korea, etc. Well no duh,those governments are well aware of that.We have listening posts all over the place.And so do the russians and chinese. They aren't surprised.Now there's fears that he might defect to the chinese.Well whoop de do. He didn't just pick Hong Kong off the top of his head.There's a lot about this guy that still isn't known.I personally don't think his picking Hong Kong as a refuge was a fluke. Even if he does go to mainland China, the chinese just the like the russians will laud and appalud him as long as he serves their purposes.When he is no longer useful to them ,even as a spy, then he will most likely disappear permentantly. It also maybe that behind the scenes a deal could be worked out between the two governments to exchange people.We get Snowden back in exchange for some chinese spy who is more valueable to them then Snowden.

[Clarakore]

That remains to be seen. I don't know if he's a hero or a villain, so I will reserve judgment until I know all of the facts. For the sake of argument, let's say that the messenger is treasonous. If so, is the *message* true, which is the issue that should receive the most focus.

Going to agree here but equally we should be clear on what the message is, what exactly do these programs mean, without prematurely and emotionally jumping to conclusions of conspiracy theory and claims or complaints of comparing us to dictatorship.

Life is so nice here compared to other countries, we could and should be helping them be more like us instead of seeing boogeymen behind every corner here. Creating problems in our mind.

(We also have more concrete and substantial problems here like our failing infrastructure and companies requiring regulation.)

The tendency to think conspiracy theory and see it in everything is like the old adage of when you have a hammer everything begins to look like nails. Even non-problems...

This is where we might disagree but generally you make a great and fair point.

In either case this thread is about the messenger Snowden. That is the main focus here. Plenty of other threads devoted to the message and exploring what elements of it are true. Off the bat some of what Snowden is saying does not square evenly.

His message has alarmist elements which have yet to be verified as accurate especially when claiming one private contractor has (legal) access to all our information. That is not the way the system is designed.

Edited June 14, 2013 by The world needs you

[Ashotep]

He might not be stuck in Hong Kong. The Russians are considering granting him asylum if he asks for it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-russia-asylum-request

[Clarakore]

The following two quotes of Snowden are concerning:

"We have seen enough criminality on the part of government. It is hypocritical to make this allegation against me. They have narrowed the public sphere of influence."

"That the NSA routinely lies in response to congressional inquiries about the scope of surveillance in America. I believe that when [senator Ron] Wyden and [senator Mark] Udall asked about the scale of this, they [the NSA] said it did not have the tools to provide an answer. We do have the tools and I have maps showing where people have been scrutinised most. We collect more digital communications from America than we do from the Russians."

Source for the Guardian's NSA files on why he carried out the biggest intelligence leak in a generation – and what comes next

A) Is Snowden an expert in the Constitution? Is he an expert on all our laws? Then how can he decide on his own to play judge, jury, lawyer, and constitutional expert and claim he has, "seen enough criminality."

Why is he not being more specific in what law exactly is being broken? What code and section? Many legal experts are claiming this was legal. That does not square aware. Some can claim it broadly violates our Constitution but experts are saying otherwise as well.

NSA Surveillance Is Legal, and That's the Worst Thing About It

Is Snowden privy to every congressional inquiry? Does his clearance allow him access to intelligence committee information? No. So how can he claim, "the NSA lies in response to congressional inquiries?"

Why is he not being more specific to which congressional inquiry lies were present? What is most disturbing is we have a segment of society willing to believe anything they hear based on generalities and allegations without requiring specifics and proof.

It bears repeating:

. The founders did not create the United States so that some solitary 29-year-old could make unilateral decisions about what should be exposed. Snowden self-indulgently short-circuited the democratic structures of accountability, putting his own preferences above everything else.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/06/11/opinion/brooks-the-solitary-leaker.html?_r=0

[Kowalski]

The following two quotes of Snowden are concerning:

Source for the Guardian's NSA files on why he carried out the biggest intelligence leak in a generation – and what comes next

A) Is Snowden an expert in the Constitution? Is he an expert on all our laws? Then how can he decide on his own to play judge, jury, lawyer, and constitutional expert and claim he has, "seen enough criminality."

Why is he not being more specific in what law exactly is being broken? What code and section? Many legal experts are claiming this was legal. That does not square aware. Some can claim it broadly violates our Constitution but experts are saying otherwise as well.

NSA Surveillance Is Legal, and That's the Worst Thing About It

Is Snowden privy to every congressional inquiry? Does his clearance allow him access to intelligence committee information? No. So how can he claim, "the NSA lies in response to congressional inquiries?"

Why is he not being more specific to which congressional inquiry lies were present? What is most disturbing is we have a segment of society willing to believe anything they hear based on generalities and allegations without requiring specifics and proof.

It bears repeating:

http://www.nytimes.c...eaker.html?_r=0

Read the Constitution.....

[Clarakore]

He might not be stuck in Hong Kong. The Russians are considering granting him asylum if he asks for it.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2013/jun/11/edward-snowden-russia-asylum-request

If the Chinese let him go...

BEIJING —A popular Communist Party-backed newspaper urged China’s leadership to milk a former U.S. contractor for more information rather than send him home, saying his revelations about secret American surveillance programs concern China’s national interest.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/asia_pacific/party-backed-newspaper-suggests-china-get-more-details-from-snowden-not-return-him-to-us/2013/06/14/18c8dc14-d4b1-11e2-b3a2-3bf5eb37b9d0_story.html

[Ashotep]

The following two quotes of Snowden are concerning:

Source for the Guardian's NSA files on why he carried out the biggest intelligence leak in a generation – and what comes next

A) Is Snowden an expert in the Constitution? Is he an expert on all our laws? Then how can he decide on his own to play judge, jury, lawyer, and constitutional expert and claim he has, "seen enough criminality."

Why is he not being more specific in what law exactly is being broken? What code and section? Many legal experts are claiming this was legal. That does not square aware. Some can claim it broadly violates our Constitution but experts are saying otherwise as well.

NSA Surveillance Is Legal, and That's the Worst Thing About It

Is Snowden privy to every congressional inquiry? Does his clearance allow him access to intelligence committee information? No. So how can he claim, "the NSA lies in response to congressional inquiries?"

Why is he not being more specific to which congressional inquiry lies were present? What is most disturbing is we have a segment of society willing to believe anything they hear based on generalities and allegations without requiring specifics and proof.

It bears repeating:

http://www.nytimes.c...eaker.html?_r=0

Probably most of what they were doing was legal thanks to the Patriot Act but should it be? Does it go against the Constitution?

Why is he not being more specific to which congressional inquiry lies were present? What is most disturbing is we have a segment of society willing to believe anything they hear based on generalities and allegations without requiring specifics and proof.

Yes people can be gullible and believe anything the government tells them.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Hilander

[Clarakore]

Probably most of what they were doing was legal thanks to the Patriot Act but should it be? Does it go against the Constitution?

Yes people can be gullible and believe anything the government tells them.

Was never a fan of the Patriot Act and still am not. Just as I am not a fan of drones especially in domestic applications.

Now that we have both my interests lies in ethical use of both. Some portions of the Patriot Act such as the NSA program which use math and science to filter through simple numbers and who called who as records or to identify keywords used in online conversations do not concern me as much as much as more direct and personal use of surveillance as committed by East Germany.

Back then, as in China, saying the wrong thing could land you in reeducation camp or worse. We are not doing that.

The fact is technology exists and it allows companies and governments to collect data in broad ways to be filtered through with algorithms. They could make it more personal but are not. No one I know suddenly went missing for being critical. No one here suddenly stops posting.

There is no doubt in my mind that some of these classified programs have stopped actual terroristic threats or followed up on terroristic acts. To simply let everyone know how it works, complete transparency, would allow those who intent to do us harm knowledge of how to work around that.

But there is also no doubt in my mind transparency is at an all time high when we already know so much about how the government operates. When and if people go missing for dissing our government then that will be a different story. That is not happening here, people have been saying it would be since social security was introduced, but nope outside the red scare (which was horrible) we have steered clear of such police states. 1984 is fiction. We are not there yet and doubt we will ever be.

When that happens let me know. Of course tools are and have been in place for it. Of course our government has the muscle to massacre us. Other governments do to to their citizens. That we have chosen not to and are not going to is more important to me that conspiracy theory. Being vigilant and aware is one thing. Being paranoid and falling for everything on infowars (an entertainment product) is not sensible. When some of these CT aficionados show as much concern as data collection by corpotations then let me know.

Private transnational companies like fb and google collecting data and more of it than our government concerns me more.

Edited June 14, 2013 by The world needs you

[Drayno]

I don't think that you should ever persecute someone for pointing out hypocrisy. Especially in Government. Listing your grievances and then telling classified information to the public are two entirely different things, and I know that. But I believe he's breaking the law at great cost to alarm every one of the danger of this administration.

[Clarakore]

Former U.S. Ambassador John Bolton told Bruce Wolf and Dan Proft on WLS that he thinks admitted leaker Edward Snowden, is guilty of treason:

"Number one, this man is a liar. He took an oath to keep the secrets that were shared with him so he could do his job. He said said he would not disclose them, and he lied.

Number two, he lied because he thinks he's smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us. This guy thinks he has a higher morality, that he can see clearer than other 299-million 999-thousand 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants.

I say that is the worst form of treason."

LISTEN to the full interview here.

Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason

Edited June 14, 2013 by The world needs you

[Clarakore]

David Charney, a psychiatrist who works regularly with CIA agents and who has personally evaluated some of the nation's most notorious spies, said in an interview that Snowden appears to fit a familiar archetype – that of a man who is perpetually trying to prove that he is smarter than his resume may indicate.

"He comes across to me as being fiercely bright and articulate, there's a mismatch between how his life went before and what he is actually," Charney said. "And that discrepancy is the thing that makes some people say, 'I'm going to prove to the world, I'm going to show everybody that I'm smarter than they think I am.'"

U.S. Fears Edward Snowden May Defect to China: Sources

There are other questions regarding his education where he claimed to have studied in particular places which have no record of him being there...story in the above link.

[Glorfindel]

Wow, this is so obviously uncontitutional, its kinda obvious those who trust the gov are just in denial at this point, plain and simple. Guilty of treason? Are you freaking serious? But the government with no regards for the constitutional rights isnt committing treason eh. Hate to break it to ya but he already proved whos committing the "worst kind of treason". You can rationale it and apologize and make excuses for the government, but its just a bunch of bull****, the evidence speaks for itself.

"Number two, he lied because he thinks he's smarter and has a higher morality than the rest of us. This guy thinks he has a higher morality, that he can see clearer than other 299-million 999-thousand 999 of us, and therefore he can do what he wants."

Are you sure youre not talking about the government here? I mean really lol, you expect us to take this crap seriously. If youre not a fan of the Patriot Act and drones, maybe you should try NOT DEFENDING THE SURVEILLANCE STATE. Like, I really have no words here, no points to make, after this and you still try to rationalize the government's behaviour, youre just downright delusional, or purposely ignorant, or too scared to face the truth. Speechless at this point.

Edited June 14, 2013 by Glorfindel

[Orcseeker]

Bolton: NSA leaker Edward Snowden is guilty of treason

Obama spoke to say that the patriot act was inflicting upon citizens rights. This recent event is an extension of the patriot act. He lied.

Exposing lies going back on your oath?

This John Bolton is producing the most ignorant argument. Serve the country. Not the corrupted. Number two is just unfounded speculation. Anyone who actually buys this crap are the types of people who support those that are responsible with the degradation of a nation.

[Gromdor]

The more I read about this guy, the more I am leaning towards traitor. 1) He didn't get this information from the normal course of his job. He had to go out of his way and get documents and information that he wasn't even supposed to handle.

2) He revealed NSA hacking operations in China.

3) He fled to Hong Kong (China) where the Chinese government is considering denying extradition.

[Wickian]

Giving out information about civilian spying should never be considered a bad thing. Knowing it's happening and having proof it's happening are two different things.

When it comes down to it, the government is made out of people, and just like us they don't trust anything they can't control. We all would like nothing more than to know exactly what the government is up to, we don't have to power to do that though. The government however does, so they make it their business to know as much as possible about what all of us are doing.

[Orcseeker]

The more I read about this guy, the more I am leaning towards traitor. 1) He didn't get this information from the normal course of his job. He had to go out of his way and get documents and information that he wasn't even supposed to handle.

2) He revealed NSA hacking operations in China.

3) He fled to Hong Kong (China) where the Chinese government is considering denying extradition.

When people start labelling someone a traitor after they have exposed injustices against the populace of their own nation (assuming you are a US citizen). You know something is wrong.

[No Censorship]

Going to agree here but equally we should be clear on what the message is, what exactly do these programs mean, without prematurely and emotionally jumping to conclusions of conspiracy theory and claims or complaints of comparing us to dictatorship.

Life is so nice here compared to other countries, we could and should be helping them be more like us instead of seeing boogeymen behind every corner here. Creating problems in our mind.

(We also have more concrete and substantial problems here like our failing infrastructure and companies requiring regulation.)

The tendency to think conspiracy theory and see it in everything is like the old adage of when you have a hammer everything begins to look like nails. Even non-problems...

This is where we might disagree but generally you make a great and fair point.

In either case this thread is about the messenger Snowden. That is the main focus here. Plenty of other threads devoted to the message and exploring what elements of it are true. Off the bat some of what Snowden is saying does not square evenly.

His message has alarmist elements which have yet to be verified as accurate especially when claiming one private contractor has (legal) access to all our information. That is not the way the system is designed.

I agree with some of your points. There's no doubt that we have it better than people in many other countries. I'm grateful and thankful for that. I'm troubled by certain trends, though. It's not just one thing. It's a combination of things. I appreciate your comment on unwarranted conspiracy theories. However, the inescapable conclusion is that there are facts and truth to be found in some of them. Our country is turning into a security state. Our rights are being violated in the name of safety and the so-called war on terrorism. 9/11 is used as an excuse to ignore the Constitution. I see examples in the news each day, and I'm not referring to paranoid web sites. This frog feels the incremental rises in temperature, and I refuse to be fried in the pan. The State wants complete and total control and knowledge of our lives. Their surveillance of citizens is excessive, and they treat us like criminals with their unconstitutional acts, and it has to change. If not, future generations of Americans will curse us for our treason against ourselves.

[Gromdor]

I guess what I am trying to say is I think he is a Chinese spy. And as a spy, exposing injustices against a population that he is working against to stir them up and possibly overthrow their government would be part of his job.

[No Censorship]

Obama spoke to say that the patriot act was inflicting upon citizens rights. This recent event is an extension of the patriot act. He lied.

Exposing lies going back on your oath?

This John Bolton is producing the most ignorant argument. Serve the country. Not the corrupted. Number two is just unfounded speculation. Anyone who actually buys this crap are the types of people who support those that are responsible with the degradation of a nation.

Bolton is a predictable neoconservative, eager to employ propaganda to further his goals. One would have to be a war-mongering zealot to support interventionism after the last decade of heavy losses of blood and treasure. Yet, here we go again with aid to the rebels, some of whom are linked to Al Qaeda, fighting Assad. Both sides are comprised of homicidal authoritarians, so maybe we should just stick to humanitarian aid in this one. Why send money and weapons to people who are members of a group that murdered thousands of Americans? Will they suddenly "see the light" when they seize the government of Syria? That hasn't been the pattern. I have little hope that our politicians will ever regain their senses as they embrace insane actions that failed in the *very* recent past.

[Raptor Witness]

I guess what I am trying to say is I think he is a Chinese spy. And as a spy, exposing injustices against a population that he is working against to stir them up and possibly overthrow their government would be part of his job.

It's an interesting argument, but look who's making that argument to cover their own azzes. I'm not buying it, at least not yet.

You've got to remember also, he was privy to a lot of information about nations, and their relative safety. He carefully chose a place where he felt he could be safe, and I have to admit, I wouldn't have felt safe in Latin America, as Mr. Julian Assange recommended. The same is true for Russia. Who would want to be Putin's lap dog?

He was smart, and I don't think he'll give up any secrets that he doesn't have to. To do so would contradict his mission. The only caveat to this, might be the curious timing of his revelations, which coincided with the meeting that President Obama had with the Dear Leader of the PRC in Palm Springs. That bothers me a little bit, unless you consider that the timing itself, would in theory, be likely be enough to buy his safety without further revelations. The timing alone, could buy his freedom in China, because it's powerful propaganda without giving away unnecessary secrets.

That's my hope, but who knows the PRC might water board him in the tradition of the U.S., or put him naked in a dark room full of insects.

Edited June 15, 2013 by Raptor Witness

[Orcseeker]

I guess what I am trying to say is I think he is a Chinese spy. And as a spy, exposing injustices against a population that he is working against to stir them up and possibly overthrow their government would be part of his job.

Look at what is happening to the US and tell me most of the government shouldn't be replaced. Would China want the US to be a better place?

[Babe Ruth]

The more I read about this guy, the more I am leaning towards traitor. 1) He didn't get this information from the normal course of his job. He had to go out of his way and get documents and information that he wasn't even supposed to handle.

2) He revealed NSA hacking operations in China.

3) He fled to Hong Kong (China) where the Chinese government is considering denying extradition.

Are you suggesting that revealing crimes by the government against the US Constitution is treason? I hope not, but it seems that's the corner you're in right now?

In part, the Fourth Amendment says that "...no Warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause"

How can Prism possibly comply with that requirement? It does not, and the government has been defying that law for years. Those of us who support ACLU have been pointing that out since the illegitimate Unpatriot Act came into being.

[Gromdor]

Are you suggesting that revealing crimes by the government against the US Constitution is treason? I hope not, but it seems that's the corner you're in right now?

In part, the Fourth Amendment says that "...no Warrant shall issue, but upon probable cause"

How can Prism possibly comply with that requirement? It does not, and the government has been defying that law for years. Those of us who support ACLU have been pointing that out since the illegitimate Unpatriot Act came into being.

For that reason, I initially thought he was a hero. However, he is revealing so much more. Revealing how the US is hacking into router hubs in China has a lot to do with national security and intelligence gathering but very little to do with the constitution. Compound that with the fact that he took all this information to Hong Kong(China).

Let me put it another way. You were saying how crappy and unconstitutional all the stuff the US did to spy on us is. Well, Snowden has all the information on how and what we did and brought it over to the Chinese. So instead of the US doing all the snooping, it could very well be the Chinese next. That's the treason part.