The Pyramid and the Yard

[RayGday]

The natural division of 12.

The 36 inch Yard (or double-cubit) contained 12 divisions of 3 inches called Palms.

Today the 36 inch yard contains 3 divisions of 12 inches.

360 day ancient Year - 12 divisions of 30 day months. (the ancient calendar)

360° sky - 12 divisions of 30 degrees.

Ancient Day - 12 divisions called hours. Rotating 30° per hour.

[cormac mac airt]

The original 18 inch cubit was divided into 6 divisions of 3 inches, called Palms is non-existant, no matter how many times the claim is made.

~SNIP~

Fixed that for you. BTW "could have been" is not the same thing as "is".

cormac

Edited July 22, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[kmt_sesh]

It's obvious they all derive from a common ancient source of 18 inches or half a yard.

...

Obvious? How so? What exactly is this "common" source and what is your academic research determining it? The word "cubit" is somewhat generically used to refer to varying units of measure in the ancient Mediterranean world. This was not a commonality across all of these cultures. Nor do any of these units of measurement equate to a neat and tidy 18 inches, as my previous post demonstrated. This is simple to understand because our concepts of inch and yard did not exist in the ancient world.

To date, RayGday, you continue to guide yourself with anachronisms framed by your own personal assumptions and opinions. You have yet to offer any sound historical research or legitimate academic conclusions to prove your point. And as long as you continue along these lines, we will continue to have problems with your credibility.

[cormac mac airt]

Obvious? How so? What exactly is this "common" source and what is your academic research determining it? The word "cubit" is somewhat generically used to refer to varying units of measure in the ancient Mediterranean world. This was not a commonality across all of these cultures. Nor do any of these units of measurement equate to a neat and tidy 18 inches, as my previous post demonstrated. This is simple to understand because our concepts of inch and yard did not exist in the ancient world.

To date, RayGday, you continue to guide yourself with anachronisms framed by your own personal assumptions and opinions. You have yet to offer any sound historical research or legitimate academic conclusions to prove your point. And as long as you continue along these lines, we will continue to have problems with your credibility.

It should also be noted that Petrie himself says, as seen in his book "Inductive Metrology":

Of particular note there is where he says "We have already seen that the cubit varied from 20.42 to 20.83 inches" and further down on the next page (not in picture) says "...the mean of the cubits is 20.64 +/- .02 inches...".

This can, in no way, be misconstrued as a cubit measuring 18 inches.

cormac

[RayGday]

Of particular note there is where he says "We have already seen that the cubit varied from 20.42 to 20.83 inches" and further down on the next page (not in picture) says "...the mean of the cubits is 20.64 +/- .02 inches...".

This can, in no way, be misconstrued as a cubit measuring 18 inches.

cormac

Correct, no way can an 18 inch cubit be misconstrued as a 20.64 inch royal cubit.

[cormac mac airt]

Correct, no way can an 18 inch cubit be misconstrued as a 20.64 inch royal cubit.

Attempting to use Petries Inductive Metrology to validate an 18 inch cubit does not in fact do so. It's wishful thinking on your part, bordering on a lie.

BTW, Petrie repeatedly references a "short cubit" as being 24 digits long which is 17.6 inches.

cormac

Edited July 22, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[kmt_sesh]

This has become tedious.

[RayGday]

Herodotus - The Histories - Book II

149: 3) Thus these pyramids are a hundred fathoms high; and a hundred fathoms equal a furlong of six hundred feet, the fathom measuring six feet or four cubits, the foot four spans and the cubit six spans.

Six feet = four cubits of 18 inches.

The cubit has 6 spans of 3 inches.

[kmt_sesh]

Herodotus - The Histories - Book II

Six feet = four cubits of 18 inches.

The cubit has 6 spans of 3 inches.

Those modern English translations are indeed convenient. But do you honestly think Herodotus was writing about modern measures in feet or perhaps, in his own language, an ancient Greek form of measurement? For example, in ancient Greece parts of the body could be used to represent measurements, so in Herodotus' terms it's possible "foot" actually meant "foot" (pous), not the term we use today in measurements.

[cormac mac airt]

149: 3) Thus these pyramids are a hundred fathoms high; and a hundred fathoms equal a furlong of six hundred feet, the fathom measuring six feet or four cubits, the foot four spans and the cubit six spans.

Obvious problems with Herodotus' claims:

1) No pyramids are 600 feet (100 fathoms) high. The Great Pyramid which is the largest was some 481 feet to its point.

2) One hundred fathoms (600 feet) do not equal a furlong, which is actually 220 yards (660 feet).

I don't know where you're from RayGday, but here in Tennessee 600 feet is not the same thing as 660 feet.

cormac

[questionmark]

This has become tedious.

I am afraid that some won't stop... no matter how much twisting is required.

[CHRIS_UK]

I'm afraid after reading this whole thread, i have to say you are all wrong...and this is the truth...

Time (seconds, minutes, hours) - Was measured in Elephant Farts, The length of said guff was the determining factor for time

Measurement (Yards, Cubit etc) - Yep, all wrong... The Egyptian Measuring system was Dead Cats. 1 Dead Cat (Dc) = 10 Long Pongs (Lp) = 100 Getridovits (Gd)

In seriousness, for some very intelligent, respectable people, some of you act like children and talk to each other with a great amount of disrespect. If you are wrong then take it on the chin and admit your faults, then listen to what people have to say. If you are right, smugness and being a clever dick only makes you look like a bellend. Either way, if someone doesn't share your view, then leave that to them.

Lets put those dummys away eh

[kmt_sesh]

I'm afraid after reading this whole thread, i have to say you are all wrong...and this is the truth...

Time (seconds, minutes, hours) - Was measured in Elephant Farts, The length of said guff was the determining factor for time

Measurement (Yards, Cubit etc) - Yep, all wrong... The Egyptian Measuring system was Dead Cats. 1 Dead Cat (Dc) = 10 Long Pongs (Lp) = 100 Getridovits (Gd)

In seriousness, for some very intelligent, respectable people, some of you act like children and talk to each other with a great amount of disrespect. If you are wrong then take it on the chin and admit your faults, then listen to what people have to say. If you are right, smugness and being a clever dick only makes you look like a bellend. Either way, if someone doesn't share your view, then leave that to them.

Lets put those dummys away eh

All valid points, CHRIS. However, if someone comes here to share an idea, this would be a very boring (and empty) place if no one provided feedback. This forum exists for debate and discussion. Some espouse alternative or fringe views, while others of us favor the scientific and historical approach. That's what it's all about at UM.

I hope they never ran out of dead cats and had to use dead kittens. That would've screwed up their measurements.

[RayGday]

To CHRIS_UK, thank you.

To kmt_sesh, I posted this theory to get feedback. It helps to strengthen the argument. Keep it up.

Now back to the topic.

Here is another reference to the 18 inch cubit.

170 AD (Died) - Abdallah Muhammed bin Abd ar-Rahim al Kaisi - (Extracts from 'Gift to the insight')

"The pyramids have all four sides, whereas each side is a triangle. Their number is 18. Opposite of Misr al-Fustat (Cairo) are three pyramids.....The largest of them has a circumference of 2000 ells, with 500 ells on each side."

Their number is 18.

An ell is a cubit.

a circumference of 2000 ells equals 36000 inches.

1000 yards.

Here's another.

General Sir Charles Warren - The Ancient Cubit and our Weights and Measures - 1903.

"It is necessary first, however, to show how our yard of 36 inches has been derived from the double cubit."

"They show that the foot, whether British, Roman, Grecian, or earlier, is but the two-thirds of a cubit, and that the inch can be traced back into remote ages before the foot came into existence."

"The original foot" is two-thirds of the original cubit."

"It may be surmised that the British foot is simply derived from the British 18-inch cubit, or double cubit of 36 inches (or a yard)"

Warren aslo said there are three ancient units which may be connected with the size of the earth: The Inch, the Double cubit and the base of the Pyramid.

The base of the Great Pyramid is 36000 inches or 1000 double cubits. 1000 yards equals 1 second of rotation.

I cannot find any historical references to Petrie's theoretical 17.6 inch cubit other than by Petrie himself.

There is plenty of historical (and modern) references to an 18 inch cubit.

We can look at it another way.

A foot has always been defined as 12 inches.

A cubit has always been defined as 18 inches, until Petrie.

A yard has always been defined as 36 inches.

[CHRIS_UK]

All valid points, CHRIS. However, if someone comes here to share an idea, this would be a very boring (and empty) place if no one provided feedback. This forum exists for debate and discussion. Some espouse alternative or fringe views, while others of us favor the scientific and historical approach. That's what it's all about at UM.

I hope they never ran out of dead cats and had to use dead kittens. That would've screwed up their measurements.

I do understand that, it's just the way it comes across sometimes thats all...

...but to add more 'Factual Information' and clear up any confusion

Dead Cat Measurements

1 Dead Cat (Dc) = 5 Dead Kittens (Dk)

Elephants Farts Measurements

Seconds - These Elephant Farts are Odourless, therefore you can have Seconds, there are more of these (60 per Minute)

Minutes - These Elephant Farts are a bit Smelly and 'Minute' in scale, so you don't mind having sixty within an Hour

Hours - 'Hour' is a variant of the vomit noise 'Heuuurrr'. these Elephant Farts are so Smelly only one per Hour is standable

[laver]

Even the most bizarre suggestion on UM is valid because it makes us think, and maybe respond, which hopefully then may make the poster also think.

If the Great Pyramid incorporates messages for the future it may have been designed and constructed not with regard to specific units of measure but to convey ratios, like the seked, because these do not rely on any specific unit of measure ( dead cats or otherwise)

[cormac mac airt]

~SNIP~

We can look at it another way.

A foot has always been defined as 12 inches.

A cubit has always been defined as 18 inches, until Petrie.

A yard has always been defined as 36 inches.

Not hardly, the foot of 12 inch length dates to the time of the introduction of the law "Composition of Yards and Perches", sometime between 1266 and 1303 AD. England was using the Roman foot of 11.65 inches prior to that.

There was no such thing as a "short cubit" during the Old Kingdom as the cubit in use at the time was the Royal Cubit of 20.6 inches. The short cubit at the earliest only dates to the New Kingdom. And no short cubit has ever equalled 18 inches exactly.

A yard of 36 inches is not in evidence as having existed prior to the 10th century AD at the earliest, which makes it irrelevant to a discussion of Ancient Egypt.

cormac

[RayGday]

One hundred fathoms (600 feet) do not equal a furlong, which is actually 220 yards (660 feet).

I don't know where you're from RayGday, but here in Tennessee 600 feet is not the same thing as 660 feet.

cormac

600 feet is the same everywhere but in the late 13th century the number of feet in a furlong changed.

The furlong went from 600 old feet to 660 new feet, or from 200 old yards to 220 new yards.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlong

Herodotus was correct regarding the furlong, fathom, foot and cubit, and he said a fathom equals six feet or four cubits.

That makes the cubit a foot and a half, exactly what Isaac Newton stated.

18 inches.

[RayGday]

Even the most bizarre suggestion on UM is valid because it makes us think, and maybe respond, which hopefully then may make the poster also think.

If the Great Pyramid incorporates messages for the future it may have been designed and constructed not with regard to specific units of measure but to convey ratios, like the seked, because these do not rely on any specific unit of measure ( dead cats or otherwise)

Exactly 1000 yards of 36 inches

or

Roughly 1760 royal cubits of about 20.63 British inches.

Either way you look at it, it equals 1 second of rotation.

I hope we all think about that.

[RayGday]

Not hardly, the foot of 12 inch length dates to the time of the introduction of the law "Composition of Yards and Perches", sometime between 1266 and 1303 AD. England was using the Roman foot of 11.65 inches prior to that.

Sometimes I find the simplest concepts are the hardest to grasp but...

12 Roman inches equals 1 Roman foot.

There was no such thing as a "short cubit" during the Old Kingdom as the cubit in use at the time was the Royal Cubit of 20.6 inches. The short cubit at the earliest only dates to the New Kingdom. And no short cubit has ever equalled 18 inches exactly.

The perimeter of the Great Pyramid is 2000 cubits of 18 inches exactly.

A yard of 36 inches is not in evidence as having existed prior to the 10th century AD at the earliest, which makes it irrelevant to a discussion of Ancient Egypt.

The ancient double-cubit, whether it's called a Yard or an Elephant Fart (EF), equals 36 inches.

[questionmark]

Sometimes I find the simplest concepts are the hardest to grasp but...

12 Roman inches equals 1 Roman foot.

The perimeter of the Great Pyramid is 2000 cubits of 18 inches exactly.

The ancient double-cubit, whether it's called a Yard or an Elephant Fart (EF), equals 36 inches.

There was no Roman inch, the Roman pes was divided into 4 palmus that in turn was divided into 4 digitus. While that gives 16 it is not the measurements it was based on. Romans divided measure in 1/4 and 1/3 if smaller than one pes and 1/5 if larger. Not into 1/16.

That besides the fact that the ancient Egyptians still counted in decades and were dead 200 years by then.

And I wonder how you can claim that a building with 4 irregular sides (as the GP) can have an exact measurement. Unless you play give or take a foot. Than we can also revert to the DC (dead cat) measurements above. Within a foot or two it will also be accurate.

Edited August 5, 2013 by questionmark

[Harte]

600 feet is the same everywhere but in the late 13th century the number of feet in a furlong changed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Furlong

Herodotus was correct regarding the furlong, fathom, foot and cubit, and he said a fathom equals six feet or four cubits.

That makes the cubit a foot and a half, exactly what Isaac Newton stated.

18 inches.

The problem with that is that we have several cubit sticks recovered from archaeological sites.

They aren't 18 inches, so the cubit wasn't 18 inches.

Harte

[Oniomancer]

I do understand that, it's just the way it comes across sometimes thats all...

...but to add more 'Factual Information' and clear up any confusion

Dead Cat Measurements

1 Dead Cat (Dc) = 5 Dead Kittens (Dk)

Elephants Farts Measurements

Seconds - These Elephant Farts are Odourless, therefore you can have Seconds, there are more of these (60 per Minute)

Minutes - These Elephant Farts are a bit Smelly and 'Minute' in scale, so you don't mind having sixty within an Hour

Hours - 'Hour' is a variant of the vomit noise 'Heuuurrr'. these Elephant Farts are so Smelly only one per Hour is standable

There is however evidence for the existence of a longer Royal Dead Cat:

[cormac mac airt]

Sometimes I find the simplest concepts are the hardest to grasp but...

12 Roman inches equals 1 Roman foot.

The perimeter of the Great Pyramid is 2000 cubits of 18 inches exactly.

The ancient double-cubit, whether it's called a Yard or an Elephant Fart (EF), equals 36 inches.

Sorry to hear that you're incapable of understanding the simplest of concepts.

The perimeter of the Great Pyramid, per Petrie, is 3022.9 feet/1007.5 yards. Which means you don't even know the meaning of the word "exactly". And since the only cubit measurement in existance at the time was the Royal Cubit of 20.63 inches then that makes the Great Pyramid, again per Petrie's measurements, 439.62/439.54/439.63/439.6 cubits per side for a perimeter length of 1758.4 Royal Cubits. Since there was no short cubit in existance during the Old Kingdom then there was no double-cubit derived from it either.

cormac

Edited August 5, 2013 by cormac mac airt

[RayGday]

The perimeter of the Great Pyramid, per Petrie, is 3022.9 feet/1007.5 yards.

Check your math.

I think you mean 3022.9 feet/1007.63 yards.

"The mean base being 9068.8 ± .5 inches" - Petrie.

• 9068.3 = 1007.59 British yards.
  
• 9069.3 = 1007.7 British yards.
  

Cole gave a mean base of 9069.4 or 1007.71 British yards.

I postulate 1000 yards equals 1007.7 British yards.

Which means you don't even know the meaning of the word "exactly".

I know exactly what "exactly" means.

And since the only cubit measurement in existance at the time was the Royal Cubit of 20.63 inches then that makes the Great Pyramid, again per Petrie's measurements, 439.62/439.54/439.63/439.6 cubits per side for a perimeter length of 1758.4 Royal Cubits.

The base of the Great Pyramid was not built using Royal cubits. Silly theory.

1758.4 Royal cubits

or

2000 cubits.

Since there was no short cubit in existance during the Old Kingdom then there was no double-cubit derived from it either.

There was obviously two cubits in use around 600 BC, the original old cubit and the new long (Royal) cubit.

Ezekiel 40:5

• " I saw a wall completely surrounding the temple area. The length of the measuring rod in the man’s hand was six long cubits, each of which was a cubit and a handbreadth."
  

Ezekiel 43:13

• "These are the measurements of the altar in long cubits, that cubit being a cubit and a handbreadth"
  

2 Chronicles 3 - (3 translations)

• "sixty cubits long and twenty cubits wide (using the cubit of the old standard)."
  
• "the length, in cubits of the old standard, was sixty cubits, and the breadth twenty cubits."
  
• "The length by cubits according to the old cubit was threescore cubits, and the breadth twenty cubits."
  

Did the Royal cubit even exist during the Old Kingdom?