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Timonthy

Pakistani sisters shot dead for dishonour...

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Timonthy

'TWO teenage sisters have been shot dead for daring to film themselves dancing in the rain and "dishonouring" their family and men in their conservative village. '

There article outlines a few other big stories to do with crimes against women as well.

I hope this kind of thing will be all but nonexistent sometime during my life.

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libstaK

Those poor girls, killed by their own step brother for dancing with children - basically they were playing children's games with children. :cry:

And the 13 year old raped by 4 men and then the tribal elders order her parents to kill her for disgracing them has my stomach churning and I feel rage building, impotent rage and I rarely feel such things.

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Zaphod222

I hope this kind of thing will be all but nonexistent sometime during my life.

Alas, no. With the growth of fundamentalist islam, it will increase during your lifetime.

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Moon Gazer

It's an absolute disgrace that these kind of things still happen today. I hope their killers are brought to justice although I doubt they will :(

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Grandpa Greenman

Funny, I see no honor in murdering little girls. I fear change will only come from a blood bath. If I could speak to the women of that country I would say arm yourselves and take out a few a**holes before you go down.

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kannin

disgusting

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Frank Merton

"Honor" is perhaps a vice, not a virtue.

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libstaK

"Honor" is perhaps a vice, not a virtue.

It is Pride that comes before the fall .... in fact, of the seven deadly sins, it is pretty much the deadliest.

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Merc14

Turns one's stomach. These men are beyond reason and logic and their hell hole of a country is a blot on the earth.

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and then

Turns one's stomach. These men are beyond reason and logic and their hell hole of a country is a blot on the earth.

And they want to share it all with the rest of the world - at the edge of a sword. I'm thinkin' no...
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keithisco

Sick, truly sick!!

Why do we even trade with these countries? Why do they get Foreign Aid from the West?

@Ibstack: "impotent rage" is exactly the feelings that I have!! I hate the idea of War between Nations (I know I work in Defence) because of the indiscriminate nature of casualties, but I would have no problem in small scale incursions to meet out justice to the (smug) stepson and the elders in the village who demanded the death of a "Dis - honourable" daughter.

If these people thought there would be a consequence for their actions from an outside agency then they would think twice. Fight these extremists as they fight us. Bring terror to the culpable and maybe, just maybe, they will stop their evil dominion over women and children...IMO

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Zaphod222

Sick, truly sick!!

Why do we even trade with these countries? Why do they get Foreign Aid from the West?

@Ibstack: "impotent rage" is exactly the feelings that I have!! I hate the idea of War between Nations (I know I work in Defence) because of the indiscriminate nature of casualties, but I would have no problem in small scale incursions to meet out justice to the (smug) stepson and the elders in the village who demanded the death of a "Dis - honourable" daughter.

If these people thought there would be a consequence for their actions from an outside agency then they would think twice. Fight these extremists as they fight us. Bring terror to the culpable and maybe, just maybe, they will stop their evil dominion over women and children...IMO

NO. That does not work. Because they are not evil people; the ideology they believe in is evil.

Without addressing fundamentalist islam, we can not address this

The way the Western world currently addresses this is the equivalent of fighting WW2 while pretending that Nazism is a religion to be respected; only some violent misunderstanders of Nazism are bad.

It is a recipe for losing.

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Phaeton80

Alas, no. With the growth of fundamentalist islam, it will increase during your lifetime.

Although honor killings are anti Islamic and originate from culture, you might be right. Fundamentalist Islam is a farcry from the teachings in the Qur'an.

And as it is, it will indeed increase in our lifetime - given 'fundamentalist Islam' thrives in chaos and disorder. Let that be just the conditions that are created in the ME as we speak.

Edited by Phaeton80

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Frank Merton

I think an awful lot of conclusions are being drawn from one event. What is the population of Pakistan so how often per person does this sort of thing happen, and do you think similar horrors don't happen in the West?

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Yamato

And they want to share it all with the rest of the world - at the edge of a sword. I'm thinkin' no...

Maybe we should reevaluate our foreign policy. Stunning, I know.

Obama_Gilani_AP120327110363_620x350.jpg

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Dark_Grey

Sick, truly sick!!

Why do we even trade with these countries? Why do they get Foreign Aid from the West?

Because we abide by the olde philosophy "keep your friends close, and your enemies closer". We give aid to countries that help us acquire resources in their territory and wage war on neighbouring countries that stand against us. It's a complex game of funding pawns in areas far away from where you are. We might support a regime one day, then decide they should be replaced the next day.

We disguise it as "humanitarian aid", but in most cases that aid doesn't really reach the people that need it...it's a sad reality :unsure2:

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Timonthy

I think an awful lot of conclusions are being drawn from one event. What is the population of Pakistan so how often per person does this sort of thing happen, and do you think similar horrors don't happen in the West?

Sure bad things like happen in western countries or countries with more modern views. But this is a certain genre of bad thing of which the underlying views are more accepted publicly.

The views that lead to this sort of crime are more generally accepted in these cultures and often the accused try to claim their actions are justified - even during court proceedings also.

Eg. 'If she was a respectable woman it (rape) never would have happened' or 'it was her fault(being raped), she has shamed her family and should be put to death' or a woman being stoned or beheaded in public without protest.

Yes bad things happen, but it's not the general consensus (here in Australia at least) that it's the woman's fault if she's raped, or that she has shamed her family and should be punished.

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Frank Merton

Well I certainly agree with one thing you said -- the notion that the woman somehow was inviting a rape should never be permitted, and if I was on a jury and heard that it would go completely contrary to what the defense is trying to do. If you want laws against indecent exposure, then fine, have them, but don't rationalize rape with such garbage.

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Timonthy

Well I certainly agree with one thing you said -- the notion that the woman somehow was inviting a rape should never be permitted, and if I was on a jury and heard that it would go completely contrary to what the defense is trying to do. If you want laws against indecent exposure, then fine, have them, but don't rationalize rape with such garbage.

Yeah there are still people here and in other western cultures who think a woman dressing more suggestively can lead to an increased chance of rape - but not that it justifies it.

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Arbenol

This is not an 'exclusively' Muslim problem. There are people from a wide variety of faiths and cultural backgrounds that believe doing violence in the name of "honour" is defensible. It's easy to see this as not a problem in our morally progressive western societies, and to a degree this is justified. But we're not that far removed from it. This is something that you'll find in many parts of the world and within several different faiths.

In 2006 a Catholic Italian man shot his sister to death for having a

child out of wedlock. Up until 1991, men in Brazil could be absolved

of killing their wives over honor. In Yemen, a Jewish father killed

his daughter after a rabbi complained that she had a child from an

affair. And a Christian father beat his daughter to death in 2005 in

Palestine because she wanted to marry a Muslim. Last year in Bashika,

Mosul, a 17-year-old woman, a member of the Yezidi religion was stoned

to death for having an Arab Muslim boyfriend.

UNICEF reports that more than 5,000 non-Muslim women are killed in

so-called dowry deaths each year in India because their in-laws

consider their dowries inadequate.

https://sites.google...-honor-killings

The Human Rights Watch define honour killings as:

acts of vengeance, usually death, committed by male family members against female family members, who are held to have brought dishonor upon the family. A woman can be targeted by (individuals within) her family for a variety of reasons, including: refusing to enter into an arranged marriage, being the victim of a sexual assault, seeking a divorce—even from an abusive husband—or (allegedly) committing adultery. The mere perception that a woman has behaved in a way that "dishonors" her family is sufficient to trigger an attack on her life.

There are many circumstances of domestic violence in the west that would fit this definition. Only, we often call them 'crimes of passion' or something similar. It seems that only when it occurs in a far off and 'backward' foreign land do we label them 'honour' killings.

That's not to say that these crimes don't occur more often in certain cultures, but I think it's important to get a sense of perspective.

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Yamato

Passion is more socially palatable in the west than Honor. Honor killings?! Romble romble romble romble! A crime of passion? Dude, that's understandable (just look at her!).

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Timonthy

Thanks guys, yeah I'm not trying to isolate Muslims here at all - I should have made it more clear my views extend to the events in India and elsewhere too (anywhere they occur).

As for honour vs passion.

Passion: Heat of the moment irrational act. Eg. Kill your lover when you find them with someone else.

Honour: Somewhat socially acceptable non remorseful and calculated act attempted to be justified by culture/beliefs.

I really don't think they are comparable.

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Zaphod222

That's not to say that these crimes don't occur more often in certain cultures, but I think it's important to get a sense of perspective.

My sense of perspective is that when I grew up in Europe, there was no such thing as "honor killing". The concept did not exist. Murder is murder.

With the islamic immigration, "honor killings" are now an established term, and thousands happen ever year.

If something upsets me more than the honor killings themselves, it is the Western apologists, who try to relativize everything.

Edited by Zaphod222
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Arbenol

My sense of perspective is that when I grew up in Europe, there was no such thing as "honor killing". The concept did not exist. Murder is murder.

With the islamic immigration, "honor killings" are now an established term, and thousands happen ever year.

If something upsets me more than the honor killings themselves, it is the Western apologists, who try to relativize everything.

You're right. The concept didn't exist. It still doesn't. When a white European does it, its called a crime of passion or domestic violence.

I'm no apologist for any religiously driven behaviour. I'm an equal opportunities bigot - I hate them all.

Edited by Arbenol68
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Timonthy

You're right. The concept didn't exist. It still doesn't. When a white European does it, its called a crime of passion or domestic violence.

I'm no apologist for any religiously driven behaviour. I'm an equal opportunities bigot - I hate them all.

No no no. A crime of passion or hate crime exist in both cultures and are of course inexcusable, but they are a separate issue. A crime like in OP would not be called a hate crime or crime of passion. It would send the country into heated debate about why the hell it was allowed to happen here; and why there are people in this country who think like that.

For example: http://www.nytimes.com/2008/11/05/world/africa/05somalia.html?_r=0

'The human rights group Amnesty International has identified the girl as Aisha Ibrahim Duhulow and said she was killed by 50 men who stoned her in a stadium in Kismayu in front of about 1,000 spectators.'

That would not be called a hate crime or crime of passion. And neither would two sisters being shot for dancing outside in the rain and filming it.

I'm talking more about the general views in these cultures and that these kinds of thing are more socially acceptable. Backwards thinking like this has no place in our age.

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