willowdreams Posted July 3, 2013 #151 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) No actually it is not, it is simply the most simple and honest... imagine admitting you were in the wrong... I have no issue with knowing I am wrong on something, if there was an apology, it would not be for 'not believing', because i am educated, i can read. i can study. I am not genius or anything near that, just average and sometimes maybe not even that. I am educated enough to know there are so many differnt kinds of religions and several different so called holy books and i would not even begin to imagine which would be true if there was a god. being an atheist is not something be say 'sorry' for, even if in the end i am wrong. No, the only things I would have to apologize about is knowingly harming someone or even myself with no remorse! THAT would be bad, or having remorse yet, not caring enough to do something about it. The WAY I treat others and perhaps myself, if it is wrong, then THAT is what I would have to apologize for. Edited July 3, 2013 by willowdreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scowl Posted July 3, 2013 #152 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Interesting. So there is no Jewish hell? No Jewish paradise with 72 virgins and all that? No extortion? No hell in the mainstream religion. There are mystic offshoots that have life after death. In that case, the Jewish Yaweh is quite a different character from the Old Testament guy and Allah. Aren´t we always told they are the same? Yeah, they're not. I don't know who that God guy is in the New Testament. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted July 3, 2013 #153 Share Posted July 3, 2013 Funny, but I've witnessed believers do the same thing............. But that's what believers wants to do ... come to think of it they do it even when they're not facing the threat of certain death or physical harm ... ~snip I thanked the nurses both times, i thanked all my doctors.. THEY saved me, along with my being stubborn and refusing to give up.. and my children who never left me alone. it never occurred to me to think any other way. why would it? Happy to hear you're better and that you pulled through, hope you get on better and be well ... maybe the DOcs and nurses did prayed a little on your behalf ? Just saying ... it doesn't hurt none ... that's the wonder of faith and prayers ... ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
willowdreams Posted July 3, 2013 #154 Share Posted July 3, 2013 (edited) But that's what believers wants to do ... come to think of it they do it even when they're not facing the threat of certain death or physical harm ... Happy to hear you're better and that you pulled through, hope you get on better and be well ... maybe the DOcs and nurses did prayed a little on your behalf ? Just saying ... it doesn't hurt none ... that's the wonder of faith and prayers ... ~ why would them praying, help me? IF there is a god, then *I* am the last person god should even THINK of helping! I mean, *I* have ins. I have doctors, I have kids to help me, I am surrounded by a support system others would dream for. So if god helped me, i would be p***ed.. Why? Because I know for a fact some woman or man is out there, or even child, being beaten or raped, someone who has no support system, maybe a child so young they do not KNOW to ask for help. Why in the world would god come to me to help me, when i already have a support system, both medically and emotionally? why not help someone who needs it, and an innocent someone at that! (or are you one of those who think no one is innocent, not even a baby.. todler or child?) no, if there is a god, then that god needs to be tending his or her people who really do need tended. Sadly, majority of those children raped or beaten or both, will not get the help they need. But alas, as they say, god works in mysterious ways, better to help those capable of asking, then help those who have no voice either within or without.. and that is a tiny bit of the reason i am a non believer. the one person i can think of right now, who should have been tended to by god.. and telling us that the person is 'with god' now and happy? doesn't cut it. http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/06/18/police-infant-died-after-mother-invited-pedophile-boyfriend-to-rape-child/ Edited July 3, 2013 by willowdreams Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jodie.Lynne Posted July 3, 2013 #155 Share Posted July 3, 2013 But that's what believers wants to do ... come to think of it they do it even when they're not facing the threat of certain death or physical harm ... ~ You misunderstand me; what I meant, and should have made more clear, is that I have seen believers make promises to god, and then when the crisis is passed, they revert to their old behaviors. Example: (beleiver) Oh god, please let that spot on my lung NOT be cancer & I'll give up smoking! Test results negative for the big C, they go and light up....... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SHaYap Posted July 3, 2013 #156 Share Posted July 3, 2013 ~snip and that is a tiny bit of the reason i am a non believer. ~snip link repeat Granted ... but it isn't granted or given in the case of the DOcs or nurses ... it doesn't matter if it is one way or the other ... no one is saying you should or shouldn't Your choices and if you're happy with it ... only you know and will know ... It is all a personal choice ... you can if you want ... and they can if they should want ... no reason why you want not and others aren't allowed to want is all ... You misunderstand me; what I meant, and should have made more clear, is that I have seen believers make promises to god, and then when the crisis is passed, they revert to their old behaviors. Example: (beleiver) Oh god, please let that spot on my lung NOT be cancer & I'll give up smoking! Test results negative for the big C, they go and light up....... Maybe they didn't want to pray in vain ? Or maybe they didn't want to honor promises without due course ? ~ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 4, 2013 #157 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Because it is an offer based on bad evidence, and enforced by extortion? If you were treating your children like that, you would be considered a monster. Rubbish. This is all based on belief so evidence is irrelavant There is no extortion involved just the presenting of alternatives No oneis forced into a choice But god wants all to make an informed choice. Second, if i failed to tell my children "if you smoke you may die early. If you walk out onto a road with out looking you may be hit by a car. If you walk into a plane's propellor you will die immediately." would I be accused of being a monster for alarming my child, or praised for educating my children in logical consequence. All god says is "You have free will. The consequence of these actions is death; the consequence of these actions is eternal life." Then its up to what tindividuals chose to believe. One problem is people who "sort of believe" or can not give up belief entirely. They want to live life how they want to live, but retain a doubt that this might kill them, so they blame god for pointing out the "facts" (within christian theology only) A true athiest has nothing to fear from god, but an atheist has no business telling a christian he is foolish for having a belief in eternal life and basing his life around that belief. Whether his belief is true or false, it will stand the person in good stead during their life on earth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 4, 2013 #158 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Kiss Hanks ass and he'll give you a million dollars, otherwise he'll kick the crap out of you. Buy a lottery ticket and you have a chance of winning a million dollars. Dont buy it and you have no chance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 4, 2013 #159 Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) Just so you religious people know, I would say to "god" that you are the most reprehensible narcissistic and sadistic person I have ever known and I would say you are impossible to love and impossible not to hate. And he would reply, "I forgive you for your error, and poor judgement, my son. You are only huma after alI, and I love you as you are." Edited July 4, 2013 by Mr Walker Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted July 4, 2013 #160 Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) And he would reply, "I forgive you for your error, and poor judgement, my son. You are only huma after alI, and I love you as you are." The amount of pain I have experienced throughout my life assures me that is what he wouldn't say Mr. Walker. Love doesn't hurt. Was this thread about what he would say or what we would say? Edited July 4, 2013 by HavocWing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 4, 2013 #161 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Well then, lets turn this 180 degrees. What would you do, sir, if the deity in question turned out to be different? Like, Odin or Gaia? Still god. Any "appearance" of the form of god must be in a form an individual can recognise as god Someone from 10000 bc would not recognise the christian avatar or form of god. I would recognise dozens of avatars of god if "it" appeared before me. But god normally apears in a form I am confortable with and speaking a language I comprehend. Not much point him speaking in babylonian, ancient egytian, or hebrew to me. Not much point him appearing as horus to me, or ishtar or gaia, even though I would recognise those avatars. Sometimes god is more like odin, sometimes more like loki. It depends on his purpose and who he is speaking to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 4, 2013 #162 Share Posted July 4, 2013 That is what the bible and quran pretty much tries to do, program people to worship him, it's like a computer virus. You cant programme people. Works of religion explain religious philosophies and beliefs Any individual human may acept or reject them as they accept or reject any philosophical position. Successful religions appeal to basic needs and drivers in human beings. Robots can't have religions but artificial intelligences can. on human animlas are like robots programmed by evolution Humans are like artificial intelligences; capable of thougth logic choice and self awareness. If people were programmed, you would be a believer. The fact that you are not ,shows we have free willed choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 4, 2013 #163 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Oh you can program people; we are born with all sorts of programs already there and self-program ourselves from day one. That's how we develop a conscience, learn our native language without studying grammar, learn how to deal with gravity and hot things and barking dogs and so on, etc. When you learn to ride a bicycle, at first your conscious mind has to do the work, but it isn't very good and in time subconscious parts of the brain get programmed and bike riding becomes automatic. This is how irrational beliefs manage to perpetuate themselves -- they have somehow been inserted into our subconscious (usually in childhood when we don't have fully developed skeptical abilities and our brains are in learn mode). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Walker Posted July 4, 2013 #164 Share Posted July 4, 2013 This is not always true. I had two bad things in the last 4 yrs happen to me. I almost died from septic poisoning, the doctor was amazed how well i came through, i was so sick that i lost about 70 pounds in a two week period. not once did i cry out 'oh god' and ask for god... what i did do is follow the doctors and nurses advice to a T. I let them do their thing, when the doctor said she was having issues finding the right medication to work and asked me if she could use some drug combinations as an experiment to see if they worked, i bluntly told her that she is the expert here, and the one thing i want to do is LIVE.. so do whatever she medically feels is needed, and if she would do it to her own mother, feel free to do it to me. I trusted my doctor and her education. Turns out I had one of the best doctors there, I know this because when I was better and able to go back to work, one of my friends who has worked at the hospital for 40+ yrs part time said so The second time was this past winter, I woke up terrified, unable to breahe in deep enough to cry out.. so short of breath that i had to 'fall' out of bed and almost crawl to the toilet as every muscle in my body tried to 'relieve' itself.. i had to bang on the wall to get the dogs to barking to wake my son up in his room at the far end of the house. I was so messed up, he had to help me get cleaned and dressed and then drive me to the hospital which is walking distance from my house (bout a block and a half up the road).. I was in congestional heart failure. I did not cry out for god.. i cried out for my dogs to wake my son, and then i told the doctors (had three of em) 'do whatever the hell you need to do to get me out of this hospital' (i really hate hospitals). I thanked the nurses both times, i thanked all my doctors.. THEY saved me, along with my being stubborn and refusing to give up.. and my children who never left me alone. it never occurred to me to think any other way. why would it? Because god might have answered you more quickly than the route you took and provided additional comfort and healing? Always rely on science and medicine, but it doesnt hurt to rely on god as well. I have been in exactly the same scenarios as you describe. I relied on the best medical help and a triple by pass prevented my death by a month or two, but god also saved my life, by warning me of my condition, and made my ordeal in hospital, and recovery period much more happy and bearable . I was never alone. God was with me, and protecting me, all the time; and I knew that. He helped me reduce my pain levels by reducing fear and anxiety, and physically reducing my levels of pain perception. I knew i would be safe and make a full recovery, because god sent an angel to tell me as much so I could realx and be comfortable psychologically. If i didn't ask for gods help, or have a relationship with god, I would have had to go without his "treatment", just as i would have had to go without medical treatment, if i hadn't asked for it by taking myself to hospital. Actually The flying doctor service took me form my home town to ADelaide but on gods advice i took my self to my local hospital. Tha ttime i had no warning of illness and my local hospital could find nothing wrong but an elevated enzyme level The heart specialist in adelaide identified three blocked arteries which would have killed me in a months time, yet at that time I hadnt had a days illness for 10 years, and had over 300 sick days accumulated. Only gods warniing got me to hospital. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 4, 2013 #165 Share Posted July 4, 2013 If you are desperate, try everything: you never know and there is always Mr. Placebo. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 4, 2013 #166 Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) It is interesting that even in a hypothetical, there are people who prefer to fight instead of just giving their response.... It would be up to God to give you an appropriate response... something I'm quite sure he would be able to do. Do you think the response God gave to the man collecting sticks was appropriate? Would you give the same response? Edited July 4, 2013 by Rlyeh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 4, 2013 #167 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Buy a lottery ticket and you have a chance of winning a million dollars. Dont buy it and you have no chance. No punishment for not buying it though. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amalthe Posted July 4, 2013 #168 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Drawing parallels isn't the same as belief. Someone really needs to look up the meaning of belief... and logic. Except for killing non-believers, people who work on the wrong day, etc. Whether you accept it or not. i am sure whatever i wrote will not change your heart, but i will try to explain to the benefit of others who are not so firm in their life decisions. Rlyeh, put aside everything you learn about religion, descriptions and stories about God(s). I'm asking do you know anyone in your life who do you consider to be honest, humble, kind person at best of his/her personality? Someone who forgives, always help, always care not because s/he must but because s/he wants to and thinks it is right thing to do? In terms of character, that is lets say perfect character. Do you know such person in life? Why do you think s/he behaves like that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted July 4, 2013 #169 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Rlyeh, put aside everything you learn about religion, descriptions and stories about God(s). I'm asking do you know anyone in your life who do you consider to be honest, humble, kind person at best of his/her personality? Someone who forgives, always help, always care not because s/he must but because s/he wants to and thinks it is right thing to do? In terms of character, that is lets say perfect character. Do you know such person in life? Why do you think s/he behaves like that? If I may answer, I actually know several persons like that. And none of them are religious believers. And I think they behave like that because they genuinely find it rewarding to be good to others. This instinct is actually biologically hard-wired into social mammals like us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 4, 2013 #170 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Rlyeh, put aside everything you learn about religion, descriptions and stories about God(s). I'm asking do you know anyone in your life who do you consider to be honest, humble, kind person at best of his/her personality? Someone who forgives, always help, always care not because s/he must but because s/he wants to and thinks it is right thing to do? In terms of character, that is lets say perfect character. Do you know such person in life? Why do you think s/he behaves like that? You're still not getting it. What you're writing still does not require belief in deities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 4, 2013 #171 Share Posted July 4, 2013 I think there are a few criminally minded people who behave themselves because of fear of Hell. Henry VIII appears to have been that way to a degree, although with him he outgrew it. Most people however are good just naturally and don't need the promise of reward or the threat of punishment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted July 4, 2013 #172 Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) Rubbish. This is all based on belief so evidence is irrelavant There is no extortion involved just the presenting of alternatives No oneis forced into a choice But god wants all to make an informed choice. Again, you are confusing "belief" and "faith". Belief in something irrational without evidence is "faith". And a choice that is based on no evidence at all, but comes with the threat of eternal hell is not an "informed choice" -- it is extortion. Second, if i failed to tell my children "if you smoke you may die early. If you walk out onto a road with out looking you may be hit by a car. If you walk into a plane's propellor you will die immediately." would I be accused of being a monster for alarming my child, or praised for educating my children in logical consequence. No. But if tell your children that there is a pink monster living living the basement, for which there is no evidence at all, but which demands all sorts of crazy behaviour, and if they ask questions about it, they will be punished brutally, then you are a monster. And religion falls into that category. Not the one about the plane`s propeller, which is real. As an argument, your example is an epic fail. A true athiest has nothing to fear from god, but an atheist has no business telling a christian he is foolish for having a belief in eternal life and basing his life around that belief. ...and as a rule they don´t. But when religionists demand that society be changed on behalf of their irrational belief system, then the issue moves from a purely personal one to a societal one. And then we have a problem that needs to be addressed. Admittedly, this is less of a problem with Christianity, but when you look at Islam and Shariah, you see the magnitude. Whether his belief is true or false, it will stand the person in good stead during their life on earth. Again, it depends on the belief. Which belief will "stand the person in good stead"? The Nazi belief that Aryans are the chosen race and Jews need to be exterminated? That is also a belief. Does it stand the believer in good stead? Really??? Edited July 4, 2013 by Zaphod222 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amalthe Posted July 4, 2013 #173 Share Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) If I may answer, I actually know several persons like that. And none of them are religious believers. And I think they behave like that because they genuinely find it rewarding to be good to others. This instinct is actually biologically hard-wired into social mammals like us. Really? You think they behave like that because they think it will benefit them? I have to say you probably never spoke to such people if you claim this. I really suggest you go and ask them that question. You might ask them a hypothetical situation. What if they know in advance that being kind to someone specific will not give them any benefits, like sharing food to a stranger they meet in train, and knowing that person is leaving country for good or something, will they still be kind to such person? Without witnesses to their kind act? Moreover, I suggest you google "Prisoner Dilemma", and you'll see that in environment where most of people are behaving morally, it pays out immensely to be ammoral. You're still not getting it. What you're writing still does not require belief in deities. No Rlyeh, you don't get it. I never assumed such person are religious. Bit what I assumed that at least once in your existence in this forum, you will be compelled to give honest answer, from your heart to the simple question i asked. But now i see you are incapable of that, your heart is so hardened by the life you had so far, you will never be able to communicate openly and sincerely on this forum. I am really sorry to realise that. Edited July 4, 2013 by Amalthe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 4, 2013 #174 Share Posted July 4, 2013 Pascal's Wager raises its head again. Given a choice between not believing and suffering eternal damnation if I'm wrong and believing and only becoming extinct if I'm wrong, which should I choose? I'm brim full of responses to that argument, but I'm curious if anyone else wants to. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rlyeh Posted July 4, 2013 #175 Share Posted July 4, 2013 No Rlyeh, you don't get it. I never assumed such person are religious."The point is, if one believes and lives by principles of morality, good will, and humility, he believes in God, even without knowing that."You most certainly did. Please don't try to back peddle. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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