SolarPlexus Posted July 7, 2013 #51 Share Posted July 7, 2013 The irony is that, Wojytla was a resister to Nazism; Ratzinger was a Hitler Jugend fellow traveler. Wojtyla helped bring down the USSR and backed Croatian clerofascists, at least that's what I remember him for. Btw all German teenagers were obligated to join the Hitler youth. Ratzinger joined when he was 15 and remained there one year, and left as soon as possible Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redhen Posted July 7, 2013 #52 Share Posted July 7, 2013 .. Wojtyła and Ratzinger deserve not beautification but something else Granted, Ratzinger could use some beautification, but Wojtyła was a good looking guy. I think you probably meant beatification. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 7, 2013 #53 Share Posted July 7, 2013 Frank M, I don't know for sure but it maybe based on the view that the RC see themselves as the one true church of JC's founding through St Pete so if your not an RC you not in the true faith and therefore not considered. This is my understanding as a long term lapsed RC and atheist which might I add had nothing to do with me being RC,I'm convinced I would've seen the light which ever faith I was raised in Well yes of course, and they end up having to pass over so many obvious saints that the flaw in the system becomes obvious. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SolarPlexus Posted July 8, 2013 #54 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Granted, Ratzinger could use some beautification, but Wojtyła was a good looking guy. I think you probably meant beatification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tutankhaten-pasheri Posted July 8, 2013 #55 Share Posted July 8, 2013 (edited) That's exactly what I thought. I mean that's good for Jean Paul II and his memory. I've no problem that someone is being considered a ''saint'' by the religion's standard or other titles if needs be. The fact that many people here seems to be upset about it is interesting because it looks like they really have a care for the catholic church and their policies. A person who doesn't mind the religion wouldn't be upset, angry nor going to bash over what title is given to a particular one. Totaly wrong. I see nobody "upset" about this nonsense. My admitted rant several pages back was not about this, it was about the patronising arrogance shown to any who not bend the knee to such garbage and have an alternate view. Do not confuse having an interest in what this Church does, and making comment, as "caring", because I certainly do not. Edited July 8, 2013 by Tutankhaten-pasheri Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arbenol Posted July 8, 2013 #56 Share Posted July 8, 2013 It does seem that the Vatican has lowered the bar somewhat when it comes to handing out Sainthoods. It seems to have become some supernatural version of the Queen's honours lists. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
libstaK Posted July 8, 2013 #57 Share Posted July 8, 2013 It does seem that the Vatican has lowered the bar somewhat when it comes to handing out Sainthoods. It seems to have become some supernatural version of the Queen's honours lists. It is a little odd to say the least, being of catholic heritage I can recognise that PJPII has earned as many accolades as they can heap on him but to rush a sainthood on him? I can't help wondering if he is rolling over in his grave and I have no inclination to pray to him to represent my plea before God. Kinda strange to have someone ask God what he knows full well he is going to be asked, just saying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 8, 2013 #58 Share Posted July 8, 2013 It does seem that the Vatican has lowered the bar somewhat when it comes to handing out Sainthoods. It seems to have become some supernatural version of the Queen's honours lists. Better that than who has most recently killed a dragon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Merton Posted July 8, 2013 #59 Share Posted July 8, 2013 I'm going to say it again: they should give sainthoods to saints, and saints aren't necessarily Roman Catholics. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ali smack Posted July 8, 2013 #60 Share Posted July 8, 2013 He shouldn't be made into a saint. He was a man who befriended the likes of Pinochet and Jean Paul Bokassa. Amongst other evil dictators, even letting himself get photographed alongside them in the vatican. He covered up Child Abuse. Repeatedly ignoring the letters of child abuse victims pleading for him to go to the police with information regarding pedophiles in the church. He had pedophiles living in the vatican. He is a monster and quite frankly is a disgrace and insult to the human race. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted July 8, 2013 #61 Share Posted July 8, 2013 That's exactly what I thought. I mean that's good for Jean Paul II and his memory. I've no problem that someone is being considered a ''saint'' by the religion's standard or other titles if needs be. The fact that many people here seems to be upset about it is interesting because it looks like they really have a care for the catholic church and their policies. A person who doesn't mind the religion wouldn't be upset, angry nor going to bash over what title is given to a particular one. Absolutely.. I sure wouldn't get myself all worked up over things I held no interest OR beliefs in..Why should I ? I certainly wouldn't think that a general news article was expecting non believers and non Catholics to all of a sudden thing "WOW tell me more?" lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeWitz Posted July 8, 2013 #62 Share Posted July 8, 2013 Well yes of course, and they end up having to pass over so many obvious saints that the flaw in the system becomes obvious. The State of Israel, and presumably most people of the Jewish faith, accept and celebrate many "righteous gentiles" (including a Catholic priest and Swedish Lutheran diplomat) who resisted the Nazi Holocaust. So there is a model for recognition of saintly persons across religious lines. Will it be adopted/adapted by Rome? That's another question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lex540 Posted July 10, 2013 #63 Share Posted July 10, 2013 no comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wtroggin Posted July 12, 2013 #64 Share Posted July 12, 2013 Miracles? Seriously? What year is this? Did Jesus hoard wealth and live in a palace? These people collect pennies from poor people, threatening damnation and selling salvation. We are lost as a species. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sundew Posted July 15, 2013 #65 Share Posted July 15, 2013 From my understanding of Scripture, sainthood is bestowed by God on the basis of believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior: i.e. any believer in Christ is therefore a saint. It is a gift of God's grace, not bestowed by men and certainly not on the basis of good works or some arbitrary panel. Presumably the pope was already a saint on the former basis; that is between him and God. Sadly there have been some popes and other ministers of various denominations over the centuries whose "sainthood" is more than a bit suspect, and whose actions in positions of religious power less than godly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted July 15, 2013 #66 Share Posted July 15, 2013 From my understanding of Scripture, sainthood is bestowed by God on the basis of believing in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior: i.e. any believer in Christ is therefore a saint. It is a gift of God's grace, not bestowed by men and certainly not on the basis of good works or some arbitrary panel. Lets say this is true... How then would people on earth know just who is and who isn't a saint? ..Or is this something that we are not meant to know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeWitz Posted July 15, 2013 #67 Share Posted July 15, 2013 (edited) Lets say this is true... How then would people on earth know just who is and who isn't a saint? ..Or is this something that we are not meant to know? Generally, Protestant Christians understand all who die in the faith to be saints; specifically, Martin Luther described all living Christians as 'simul iustus et peccator'--"simultaneously saints and sinners" by grace through faith in Christ. There are variations on the theme of "saints" among Christian traditions. The Roman Catholic tradition is the one with the most specific criteria and process for sainthood as established and administered by internal Vatican investigators and analysts, final approval up to the pope, of course. If one checks out "All Saints Day" and "All Souls Day" at, for example, 'wikipedia,' one can read more about the internal Roman Catholic distinction between 'ordinary' believer and official 'saint.' Edited July 15, 2013 by szentgyorgy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beckys_Mom Posted July 15, 2013 #68 Share Posted July 15, 2013 Generally, Protestant Christians understand all who die in the faith to be saints; specifically, Martin Luther described all living Christians as 'simul iustus et peccator'--"simultaneously saints and sinners" by grace through faith in Christ. There are variations on the theme of "saints" among Christian traditions. The Roman Catholic tradition is the one with the most specific criteria and process for sainthood as established and administered by internal Vatican investigators and analysts, final approval up to the pope, of course. If one checks out "All Saints Day" and "All Souls Day" at, for example, 'wikipedia,' one can read more about the internal Roman Catholic distinction between 'ordinary' believer and official 'saint.' Why ( For example ) do we here in Ireland have many protestant churches that are named after certain saints?...If all protestants believe all are saints? I come from a family of not just catholic but a lot of my family are protestant ( including my kids ) We recognize so many protestant churches all in support of certain saints.. IE - Local church near us is - St Marks... St Columbus St James etc etc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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