the book of mormon empires.

[danielost]

The book of mormon speaks of four empries. The first one, the book, doesn't say who they were. It does say th last leader, watched as the second group landed. This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible. Samething happened to this group. Its last leader watched as the third and fourth groups landed. They were divided between brothers. They became the lamoinights the nephites.

I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

After christ came to visit here, after his exacution. Befpre christ the two groups were divided along family lines. After, christ left, they were devided between belivers and non believers.

The aztecs and the incas.

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

I can't see why they couldn't be the omacks and the mians.

After all, it's from a book that's a forago of lies, half-truths and heresies anyway, so appropriated histories isn't that too big a stretch.

[Likely Guy]

Daniel, if you're waiting for another Mormon to come along and discuss your questions, I'm afraid that you might be in for a long wait.

Mean time, this is the 'friendly discussion' forum, not the 'debate' forum, isn't it? (We should keep that in mind, I think.)

Unless, you'd like to debate the points that you brought up Daniel?

[Philangeli]

This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible. .

My brother's got all their albums. They are still touring, apparently.

I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

I often wonder about this as well.

[Lava_Lady]

The book of mormon speaks of four empries. The first one, the book, doesn't say who they were. It does say th last leader, watched as the second group landed. This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible. Samething happened to this group. Its last leader watched as the third and fourth groups landed. They were divided between brothers. They became the lamoinights the nephites.

I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

After christ came to visit here, after his exacution. Befpre christ the two groups were divided along family lines. After, christ left, they were devided between belivers and non believers.

The aztecs and the incas.

Do you mean the Olmecs and the Mayans?

[Quaentum]

The book of mormon speaks of four empries. The first one, the book, doesn't say who they were. It does say th last leader, watched as the second group landed. This group was jason and the turtle ships, mentioned in the bible. Samething happened to this group. Its last leader watched as the third and fourth groups landed. They were divided between brothers. They became the lamoinights the nephites.

I was wondering if the first group were the omacks, the second the mians.

After christ came to visit here, after his exacution. Befpre christ the two groups were divided along family lines. After, christ left, they were devided between belivers and non believers.

The aztecs and the incas.

The Nephites were supposedly descendants of Nephi who came from Jerusalem to the Americas. DNA shows that none of the early people of the Americas came from the middle east. In essence it was nothing more than a fabrication added to the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith.

[Dark_Grey]

The Nephites were supposedly descendants of Nephi who came from Jerusalem to the Americas. DNA shows that none of the early people of the Americas came from the middle east. In essence it was nothing more than a fabrication added to the Book of Mormon by Joseph Smith.

The smoking gun for me is the passage that says people with black skin were israelites that were "cursed by God" (something the Mormon church didn't formally refute until the early 1970's). That tells me right there the whole book of Morom is nothing but a fabrication by Joseph Smith. Here's my logic:

No where in the Bible does it discriminate against people with dark skin. Why? Because it was written in a time when everyone had dark skin. On the other hand, Joesph Smith lived in "white America" during a time when slavery/racism was extremely common. So for the BoM to include a passage that directly condemns people of color is irrefutable proof that it was written during the time of Smith and did not come from God like he claimed.

Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and

murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...

as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like

them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they

married with the Lamanites.

...it's not really one of those "up for interpretation" passages. I think it's a pretty clear description of the thinking at the time. It's funny, because though I'm sure there are now people of color/ethnicity in the church, one of the first things I noticed upon visiting my inlaws Mormon temple was the sheer number of white members. I was so intrigued I had to ask my wife if there was an unspoken rule about it

[DeWitz]

My brother's got all their albums. They are still touring, apparently.

I often wonder about this as well.

Daniel, perhaps you are referring to "Jason and the Argonauts," a movie riff on ancient Greek mythology with special effects by first gen SFX genius Ray Harryhausen?

The turtledove makes repeat appearances in both the Old Testament and New, but they aren't fronted by a "Jason." A "Jason" does appear in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles, chapter 17, as a pious Greek who hosted Paul and Silas and got thrown in jail for that kindness, but he's not referred to as a sailor, singer or turtle. These don't seem to match up with your citation.

Did you mean that 'Jason and the turtles' were in the extrabiblical Book of Mormon? I've read it, but can't locate the reference. I've been to the Hill Cumorah pageant but don't recall Jason, or the turtles, as part of the actual story, ship crews or the musical revue.

Edited July 11, 2013 by szentgyorgy

[DeWitz]

The smoking gun for me is the passage that says people with black skin were israelites that were "cursed by God" (something the Mormon church didn't formally refute until the early 1970's). That tells me right there the whole book of Morom is nothing but a fabrication by Joseph Smith. Here's my logic:

No where in the Bible does it discriminate against people with dark skin. Why? Because it was written in a time when everyone had dark skin. On the other hand, Joesph Smith lived in "white America" during a time when slavery/racism was extremely common. So for the BoM to include a passage that directly condemns people of color is irrefutable proof that it was written during the time of Smith and did not come from God like he claimed.

Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and

murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...

as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like

them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they

married with the Lamanites.

...it's not really one of those "up for interpretation" passages. I think it's a pretty clear description of the thinking at the time. It's funny, because though I'm sure there are now people of color/ethnicity in the church, one of the first things I noticed upon visiting my inlaws Mormon temple was the sheer number of white members. I was so intrigued I had to ask my wife if there was an unspoken rule about it

Dark, the only stre-e-e-ec-ch-h-h on this one is the so-called "mark of Cain," which too many hasty conclusions have associated with skin pigmentation (Genesis 4:15). Yes, it has been interpreted, by shoddy 'scholarship,' as being indicative of dark(er) skin. You can see this in the abominable "Christian" justification of slavery, especially the Southern religious rhetoric of the slave-owning South. Most respectable academics have long dispensed with the notion, but researching "mark of Cain" will dig up these racist assertions. Ironically, 'God' meant it as a sign of protection for Cain.

My tongue-in-cheek research suggests that the Nehites were responsible for founding one of the first soft drink bottling concessions in America, producing Nehi for both natives and new arrivals, The Lemonites tended to stick closer to home, offering refreshing citrus- and sugar-based refreshments for passers-by.

[Dark_Grey]

Dark, the only stre-e-e-ec-ch-h-h on this one is the so-called "mark of Cain," which too many hasty conclusions have associated with skin pigmentation (Genesis 4:15). Yes, it has been interpreted, by shoddy 'scholarship,' as being indicative of dark(er) skin. You can see this in the abominable "Christian" justification of slavery, especially the Southern religious rhetoric of the slave-owning South. Most respectable academics have long dispensed with the notion, but researching "mark of Cain" will dig up these racist assertions. Ironically, 'God' meant it as a sign of protection for Cain.

My tongue-in-cheek research suggests that the Nehites were responsible for founding one of the first soft drink bottling concessions in America, producing Nehi for both natives and new arrivals, The Lemonites tended to stick closer to home, offering refreshing citrus- and sugar-based refreshments for passers-by.

I thought someone might claim it was simply shoddy interpretation.

To further prove that it was actually meant to condemn people of color, I refer to the religious leaders of the Mormon faith:

Brigham Young, second President and Prophet:

"You see, some classes of the human family that are black, uncouth, uncomely, disagreeable and low in their habits, wild and seemingly deprived of nearly all the blessings of the intelligence that is generally bestowed upon mankind. . . . Cain slew his brother. Cain might have been killed, and that would put a termination to that line of human beings. This was not to be, and the Lord put a mark upon him, which was the flat nose and black skin. Trace mankind down to after the flood, and then another cursed is pronounced upon the same race--that they should be the "servants of servants;" and they will be until that curse is removed; and the Abolitionists cannot help it, nor in the least alter that decree (Journal of Discourses, 7:290)

Shall I tell you the law of God in regard to the African race? If the white man who belongs to the chosen seed mixes his blood with the seed of Cain, the penalty, under the law of God, is death on the spot. This will always be." (ibid., 10:110)

Wilford Woodruff, fourth President and Prophet:

"What was that mark? It was a mark of blackness. That mark rested upon Cain, and descended upon his posterity from that time until the present. To day there are millions of the descendants of Cain, through the lineage of Ham, in the world, and that mark of darkness still rest upon them." (Millennial Star, 51:339; emphasis added).

In 1963, Look magazine interviewed, at that time, the leader of the LDS Church; Joseph Fielding Smith. Concerning negroes, Smith stated:

I would not want you to believe that we bear any animosity toward the Negro. 'Darkies' are wonderful people, and they have their place in our church (Look magazine, October 22, 1963, 79).

Smith also taught that "Negroes" were inferior to other races:

"Not only was Cain called upon to suffer, but because of his wickedness he became the father of an inferior race. A curse was place upon him and that curse has been continued through his lineage and must do so while time endures. Millions of souls have come into this world cursed with black skin and have been denied the privilege of Priesthood and the fullness of the blessings of the Gospel. These are the descendants of Cain. Moreover, they have been made to feel their inferiority and have been separated from the rest of mankind from the beginning… we will also hope that blessings may eventually be given to our Negro brethren, for they are our brethren--children of God---notwithstanding their black covering emblematical of eternal darkness."(The Way to Perfection, 101-02).

There you go. Right from the "horses mouth".

There are actually a surprising number of quotes from LDS presidents and other LDS authorities that confirm their "distaste" for people of color. I am not trying to imply this is the current thinking of the church! I am merely providing evidence that the discriminatory passages in the BoM were meant to be just that.

Oh, and one more quote from the tenth president J. F. Smith;

"There is a reason why one man is born black and with other disadvantages, while another is born white with great advantages...the Negro, evidently, is receiving the reward he merits." (Doctrines of Salvation, 1:61, 66).

Edited -- ridiculous amount of formatting

Edited July 11, 2013 by Dark_Grey

[Quaentum]

The smoking gun for me is the passage that says people with black skin were israelites that were "cursed by God" (something the Mormon church didn't formally refute until the early 1970's). That tells me right there the whole book of Morom is nothing but a fabrication by Joseph Smith. Here's my logic:

No where in the Bible does it discriminate against people with dark skin. Why? Because it was written in a time when everyone had dark skin. On the other hand, Joesph Smith lived in "white America" during a time when slavery/racism was extremely common. So for the BoM to include a passage that directly condemns people of color is irrefutable proof that it was written during the time of Smith and did not come from God like he claimed.

Alma 17:14 describes the Lamanites as being a wild, ferocious, plundering, robbing, and

murdering people, God felt the need to change their skin color to make them not enticing to the Nephites ...

as if their immoral acts were not sufficient enough to deter the Nephites into wanting to become like

them. It is also stated in 2 Nephi 5:23 that the Nephites would also be cursed with the dark skin if they

married with the Lamanites.

...it's not really one of those "up for interpretation" passages. I think it's a pretty clear description of the thinking at the time. It's funny, because though I'm sure there are now people of color/ethnicity in the church, one of the first things I noticed upon visiting my inlaws Mormon temple was the sheer number of white members. I was so intrigued I had to ask my wife if there was an unspoken rule about it

A simpler refutation would be this:

Joseph Smith using the seer stones in his hat was supposedly shown the words for the Book of Mormon. He would read them and someone nearby would write them down. Often, he would spell out the words and have the person who wrote them down read the spelling back to him. When it was taken to the printer, they noticed errors in the book and asked if they should correct those errors. Joseph Smith's reply was that the book was perfect and nothing needed to be changed.

Since it's first printing in 1830, more than 6,000 spelling errors have been corrected. This leads to one of two conclusions:

1 - That Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon.

2 - God can't spell.

[Dark_Grey]

A simpler refutation would be this:

Joseph Smith using the seer stones in his hat was supposedly shown the words for the Book of Mormon. He would read them and someone nearby would write them down. Often, he would spell out the words and have the person who wrote them down read the spelling back to him. When it was taken to the printer, they noticed errors in the book and asked if they should correct those errors. Joseph Smith's reply was that the book was perfect and nothing needed to be changed.

Since it's first printing in 1830, more than 6,000 spelling errors have been corrected. This leads to one of two conclusions:

1 - That Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon.

2 - God can't spell.

lol well said

[danielost]

Do you mean the Olmecs and the Mayans?

Yes, I did. According to the so called experts, both groups just up and abandoned their cities. The reason we can't find the cities namedin te book of mormon, is because they forgot to putup a sign saying welcome to _--------. The names we use are our names for the cities.

[danielost]

A simpler refutation would be this:

Joseph Smith using the seer stones in his hat was supposedly shown the words for the Book of Mormon. He would read them and someone nearby would write them down. Often, he would spell out the words and have the person who wrote them down read the spelling back to him. When it was taken to the printer, they noticed errors in the book and asked if they should correct those errors. Joseph Smith's reply was that the book was perfect and nothing needed to be changed.

Since it's first printing in 1830, more than 6,000 spelling errors have been corrected. This leads to one of two conclusions:

1 - That Joseph Smith created the Book of Mormon.

2 - God can't spell.

You forgot one. Smith only got thru the eigth grade. Perhaps h couldn't spell. As for the computer glass, we can do that now have you heard of google glass.

The story of jason is in the bible.

[Dark_Grey]

You forgot one. Smith only got thru the eigth grade. Perhaps h couldn't spell. As for the computer glass, we can do that now have you heard of google glass.

The story of jason is in the bible.

His point is that Smith said the BoM was perfect, 6000 spelling corrections proved he was wrong.

[danielost]

The book of mormon does not say those with black skin were cursed. It says those with red skin is. Ie the natives.

The lemonights and nephites were desented from four brothers. The leminnights liked to paint themselves red for war so god helped them. They traveled east out of jeruselum. That would be china.

[Dark_Grey]

The book of mormon does not say those with black skin were cursed. It says those with red skin is. Ie the natives.

The lemonights and nephites were desented from four brothers. The leminnights liked to paint themselves red for war so god helped them. They traveled east out of jeruselum. That would be china.

..did you not read the quotes I posted? Several presidents of the LDS Church said those verses were refering to black people. I don't understand how you can interpret it differently.

[danielost]

You didn't provide any links. Besides when did dark skin mean only black. And the bible talks about god putting a mark on cain so no one seeing him would kill him. Further, the story of noah goes out of its way to tell us that one of noahs sons was married to a caininite. No where in any scriptures has there ever been genicide. The flood came the closest to do so.

As for the curse of marrying someone with dark skin. Have you ever seen a mexican.

Dark skinned people. Indians, south africa below the desert, some arabs, asains, obariganies(we class them as cuacasins, and the pacific islanders.

Edited July 12, 2013 by danielost

[Beckys_Mom]

As for the curse of marrying someone with dark skin. Have you ever seen a mexican.

Oh good heavens...And this is what you follow and believe?

I call my white pale pasty skin more of a curse... I envy those who are darker...And I am not kidding, if I had darker skin, I would save a fortune on fake tan...

[danielost]

Get a real tan.

[Beckys_Mom]

Get a real tan.

I live in Ireland not the Caribbean...Besides fake tan is better, my skin wont age as fast with the sun..

Now tell me daniel, back to the mormon text info you posted, do you seriously believe that colored people are cursed? Like when you posted this below..

As for the curse of marrying someone with dark skin. Have you ever seen a mexican.

Honestly, do you really believe this?

[Rafterman]

The book of mormon does not say those with black skin were cursed. It says those with red skin is. Ie the natives.

The lemonights and nephites were desented from four brothers. The leminnights liked to paint themselves red for war so god helped them. They traveled east out of jeruselum. That would be china.

Of course this is all based on an "angel" talking to a teenager and telling him to go dig up some scrolls on a hill in New York.

[Dark_Grey]

You didn't provide any links. Besides when did dark skin mean only black. And the bible talks about god putting a mark on cain so no one seeing him would kill him. Further, the story of noah goes out of its way to tell us that one of noahs sons was married to a caininite. No where in any scriptures has there ever been genicide. The flood came the closest to do so.

As for the curse of marrying someone with dark skin. Have you ever seen a mexican.

Dark skinned people. Indians, south africa below the desert, some arabs, asains, obariganies(we class them as cuacasins, and the pacific islanders.

Maybe there is an issue with comprehension...go back and read the 10th post in this thread.

Now read it again.

Now tell me those verses don't refer directly to black people.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

And last November there was a possibility that the "Leader of the free world" could have been a member of this appalling con trick religion. So, Morons oops, Mormons, Wesboro Baptist Church, TV crimminals oops again, I meant TV evangelists, and President that people still are not sure of his religion. Hmmmmmm, certainly partly explains Maccrap, er Macfood er that disgusting garbage etc....

[danielost]

Oh good heavens...And this is what you follow and believe?

I call my white pale pasty skin more of a curse... I envy those who are darker...And I am not kidding, if I had darker skin, I would save a fortune on fake tan...

I believe and the church preachers we asre all brothers and sisters, curse or no curse. Mormon men get the priesthood because they need it to stay true. Women don't have it because they don't need the extra help. There is one major reasons were not given the priesthood until the seventies. Because, they weren't able to do their priesthood responsibility. The main one was being the head of the family. They were running around the country for work or ijmprisoned for noi reason.