A radiocarbon dating question

[questionmark]

As I understand it most of the samples of pumice at Tell el-Daba originated from Santorini, but there were other sources as well such as Nisyros, Kos and Giali (all Greece) as well. I've yet come across any details as to who did the testing, how the samples were separated and what dates they all showed. Also, in Ancient Egypt much of the northern delta was marshland and the shoreline has changed greatly over time.

cormac

I referenced some of the standard works a few posts back.

[questionmark]

In my book I argue that the two floods remembered by the Greeks, the floods of Ogyges and Deucalion, must have been caused by eruptions of Thera. I also argue that the first of these must have occurred around 1540 BCE, during the reign of Ahmose I. I somehow missed the fact that pumice was found at Avaris in a layer that was dated to 1540 BCE. Does anyone have more details about this find? Was the pumice found in a natural environment (meaning that it must have originated from Thera), or was it found in a location suggesting that it may have been preserved or deposited there by humans since 1613 BCE?

It does not have to be a volcano in the immediate vicinity of Egypt to affect the weather there. The Krakatoa affected weather world wide for over a decade and is located in Indonesia. The 18th century Island eruption caused the small ice age in the whole Northern hemisphere (Besides that there are several suspected meteor impacts within the general time frame, one in Libya, that could have very well affected Egypt for a time).

[Harte]

The Winter 1815 eruption of Mount Tambora in Indonesia resulted in Mary Shelly writing Frankenstein:

In July 1816 "incessant rainfall" during that "wet, ungenial summer" forced Mary Shelley, John William Polidori, and their friends to stay indoors for much of their Swiss holiday. They decided to have a contest to see who could write the scariest story, leading Shelley to write Frankenstein, or The Modern Prometheus and Lord Byron to write "A Fragment", which Polidori later used as inspiration for The Vampyre— a precursor to Dracula. In addition, Lord Byron was inspired to write a poem, Darkness, at the same time.

Here in the US, that following year was referred to as "eighteen-hundred and froze to death."

Harte

[Riaan]

It does not have to be a volcano in the immediate vicinity of Egypt to affect the weather there. The Krakatoa affected weather world wide for over a decade and is located in Indonesia. The 18th century Island eruption caused the small ice age in the whole Northern hemisphere (Besides that there are several suspected meteor impacts within the general time frame, one in Libya, that could have very well affected Egypt for a time).

It had to be close enough to Egypt to cause volcanic ash to fall upon Egypt, so dense that it caused completed darkness for several days and "could be felt".

[questionmark]

It had to be close enough to Egypt to cause volcanic ash to fall upon Egypt, so dense that it caused completed darkness for several days and "could be felt".

It did not, as Krakatoa ashes were falling on Europe in December and January 1883. That would be a distance of 9000 miles away. Probably on the US too, but there seem to be no records.

[Riaan]

It did not, as Krakatoa ashes were falling on Europe in December and January 1883. That would be a distance of 9000 miles away. Probably on the US too, but there seem to be no records.

Reference please. As far as I could establish the Europeans only observed red sunsets. Even if so, it could hardly have caused total darkness over Europe. What other large volcanic eruptions could have caused such darkness over Egypt?

Then there is another issue - why would the Egyptians suddenly have abandoned Amun and sestroyed his temples, in favour of the Aten? Something very drastic must have happened. The destruction of the temples of Amun is ascribed to Akhenaten. In my book I show that the Egyptian turned their back on Amun because Amenhotep, on the advice of the high priest of Amun, instructed that all firstborn had to be sacrificed in order to bring an end to the plague in Egypt. It did not work, and as a result the Egyptians rebelled against both Amenhotep and the Amun priesthood. The 'Asiatics' who came from Jerusalem to assist Osarsiph (Geb in the EL Arish Text) were actually responsible for the wide-scale destruction of the temples, etc.

[questionmark]

Reference please. As far as I could establish the Europeans only observed red sunsets. Even if so, it could hardly have caused total darkness over Europe. What other large volcanic eruptions could have caused such darkness over Egypt?

Then there is another issue - why would the Egyptians suddenly have abandoned Amun and sestroyed his temples, in favour of the Aten? Something very drastic must have happened. The destruction of the temples of Amun is ascribed to Akhenaten. In my book I show that the Egyptian turned their back on Amun because Amenhotep, on the advice of the high priest of Amun, instructed that all firstborn had to be sacrificed in order to bring an end to the plague in Egypt. It did not work, and as a result the Egyptians rebelled against both Amenhotep and the Amun priesthood. The 'Asiatics' who came from Jerusalem to assist Osarsiph (Geb in the EL Arish Text) were actually responsible for the wide-scale destruction of the temples, etc.

There would be no darkness over Egypt by a volcano unless the thingy exploded right beside the place where the darkness happened. There are no geological recent volcanoes in Egypt.

So you are talking about an imagined event or something unrelated to any volcano.

And the Egyptians did not abandon Amun, for a time, under Akhenaton the Egyptians for the length of one Kingdom all gods but Aten played a secondary role. as soon as Akhenaton croaked it all went back to normal.

That Pharaohs brought with them a new form of cult or believe was not unusual, and the first one where it is documented would be Khufu. Amuns name changed to Amun-Ra, from the God of the wind to the God of fertility. And in the new Kingdom his attributes changed to the all-creator.

[Riaan]

So you are talking about an imagined event or something unrelated to any volcano.

Rubbish - the description is too accurate to be imaginary. There are several other indicators as well - stones with fire in them, a sonic boom, a tsunami, the plague. The El Arish Text confirms Manetho's account and also mentions the complete darkness exactly as it is described in the Bible and other Jewish texts. All summarized in my book.

[questionmark]

Rubbish - the description is too accurate to be imaginary. There are several other indicators as well - stones with fire in them, a sonic boom, a tsunami, the plague. The El Arish Text confirms Manetho's account and also mentions the complete darkness exactly as it is described in the Bible and other Jewish texts. All summarized in my book.

Whatever. I wish some people would actually understand religion instead of yaddahing about material objects.

[cormac mac airt]

It had to be close enough to Egypt to cause volcanic ash to fall upon Egypt, so dense that it caused completed darkness for several days and "could be felt".

Which is not in evidence since the ash samples that have been found in the delta was on the order of millimeters, not centimeters or larger. And the only other relatively close volcano/volcanic field that is evidenced to have erupted near your proposed timeframe is Jebel Marra, which on the Volcanic Explosivity Index is rated a 6 (Thera being a 7). Jebel Marra erupted c.1500 BC.

cormac

[questionmark]

Which is not in evidence since the ash samples that have been found in the delta was on the order of millimeters, not centimeters or larger. And the only other relatively close volcano/volcanic field that is evidenced to have erupted near your proposed timeframe is Jebel Marra, which on the Volcanic Explosivity Index is rated a 6 (Thera being a 7). Jebel Marra erupted c.1500 BC.

cormac

Which, while the wind could have been blowing in the right direction, is ~1700 kilometers from lower Egypt. Doubt that it would have been visible or that it would have obscured the sky in Egypt.

[Riaan]

Which, while the wind could have been blowing in the right direction, is ~1700 kilometers from lower Egypt. Doubt that it would have been visible or that it would have obscured the sky in Egypt.

So that still leaves only Thera?

[questionmark]

So that still leaves only Thera?

That leaves NOBODY, why is that so difficult to understand? There was no volcano active anywhere near Egypt that could have rained large ashes and brimstone and obscured the sky, no matter what your story book seez.

[cormac mac airt]

Which, while the wind could have been blowing in the right direction, is ~1700 kilometers from lower Egypt. Doubt that it would have been visible or that it would have obscured the sky in Egypt.

Which was my point in mentioning Jebel Marra, which makes two possible volcanoes with NEITHER having shown evidence of anything relevant to Egypt and an alleged Exodus. In short, two negatives don't make a positive.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

Reference please. As far as I could establish the Europeans only observed red sunsets. Even if so, it could hardly have caused total darkness over Europe. What other large volcanic eruptions could have caused such darkness over Egypt?

Which ancient Egyptian text describes volcanic ash or some similar phenomenon darkening the skies? I know of none. The only thing that comes close is the Tempest Stela of Ahmose I, which clearly describes not volcanic activity but storms and floods.

Then there is another issue - why would the Egyptians suddenly have abandoned Amun and sestroyed his temples, in favour of the Aten? Something very drastic must have happened. The destruction of the temples of Amun is ascribed to Akhenaten. In my book I show that the Egyptian turned their back on Amun because Amenhotep, on the advice of the high priest of Amun, instructed that all firstborn had to be sacrificed in order to bring an end to the plague in Egypt. It did not work, and as a result the Egyptians rebelled against both Amenhotep and the Amun priesthood. The 'Asiatics' who came from Jerusalem to assist Osarsiph (Geb in the EL Arish Text) were actually responsible for the wide-scale destruction of the temples, etc.

Simply because you put it into a book does not make it authoritative. Anyone can write a book these days. More important is how you source and corroborate your claims.

When we turn to archaeological and contemporary textual evidence, we clearly see that far from closing the temples of Amun, Amuhotep III added significantly to the building projects at Thebes and Luxor—the home ground of this god. Amunhotep III was a prodigious builder in the Nile Valley and did a lot to support and maintain the cult of Amun. There is certainly evidence that Amunhotep III venerated the Aten, such as has been gleaned from the archaeological ruins of his great palace at Malqata, but there is nothing to suggest he turned to the veneration of this god to the exclusion of all other Egyptian deities. He did not. Amunhotep III apparently venerated the Aten on more of a personal level, but was far from a henotheist.

I mean, the archaeological and textual evidence are crystal clear on this. There is no doubting it. The cult of the Aten reached its height only under the reign of Amunhotep III's son and successor, Amunhotep IV / Akhenaten. It was Akhenaten who was the religious zealot, not his father.

Did Amunhotep III erect the purpose-built city of Akhetaten? No, that was clearly Akhenaten. There are boundary stelae surrounding the ruins of this city on which Akhenaten made his aims and desires perfectly clear. Did Amunhotep III change his name to Akhenaten? No, that was Amunhotep IV—a clear sign of his proscriptions against the god Amun. Did Amunhotep III send out agents to destroy attestations of his own name as well as others with the theophoric element of Amun? No, that was clearly Akhenaten. Did Amunhotep III revamp the afterlife beliefs of the court to something at best murky and vague? No, Akhenaten did. Indeed, Amunhotep III was provided a very traditional Osiride royal tomb in WV22, in the Valley of the Kings. Akhenaten's tomb at Amarna is, on the other hand, something altogether different.

Your position does not survive scrutiny. I'm being quite literal when I say you have to take the abundance of archaeological and contemporary textual evidence very seriously. You can't just gloss over it as though it doesn't matter.

The abandonment of the cult of Amun was not sudden. Akhenaten approached it in stages. We can't even be sure he originally intended to do so. After all, his earliest Aten temples were adjuncts erected at Karnak, side by side with the cult of Amun. The most important of these was the Gempaaten; he also erected a temple there in honor of his great queen, Nefertiti. It wasn't until at least the fifth year of his reign that he moved the capital to the site of Amarna with his purpose-built city of Akhetaten. Only then did the real proscriptions against the cult of Amun begin. We cannot know how long it might have taken to achieve full results.

Why did the cult of the Aten take on such prominence, to the exclusion of Amun? You peripherally touched on one possibility, although your account appears garbled (much as the accounts of Manetho). It is only a theory but the probability of plague at this time might have motivated Akhenaten to abandon the old gods, who were not helping Egypt, and to elevate an ancient minor god (the Aten) with a brand-new, virgin site (Akhetaten). Another theory is that Akhenaten disliked the power, wealth, and authority of the Amun priesthood and wished to strip it of its position; thus, close the traditional temples and start over with a new cult. Yet another theory is that Akhenaten was simply something of a loony religious zealot who wanted to promote his own favored deity to extremes. Or it could have been a combination of all of these things. One thing on which all agree is that no one can know for certain why Akhenaten did this. All explanations must remain theoretical, absent a time machine.

Finally, and frankly put, the idea of a high priest ordering the death of Egyptian first-born would have been utterly repellant to ancient Egyptians. Nothing in the pharaonic tradition supports anything like this having happened. The closest one gets is the sacrificial burials of servants and harem women for Dynasty 1 kings buried at Abydos 5,000 years ago, but no such action occurred again after Dynasty 1. The Egyptians never were fond of the idea of sacrificing their own citizens, and even capital punishment of citizens was sparingly used. Very simply put, had a pharaoh even as powerful as Amunhotep III tried to do such a thing, he likely would have been deposed and probably assassinated. Do you honestly think several million Egyptians would have accepted such an atrocity?

[NatureBoff]

This might be relevant to the discussion:

Low reservoir ages for the surface ocean from mid-Holocene Florida corals

The 14C reservoir age of the surface ocean was determined for two Holocene periods (4908–4955 and 3008–3066 calendar (cal) B.P.) using U/Th-dated corals from Biscayne National Park, Florida, United States. We found that the average reservoir ages for these two time periods (294 ± 33 and 291 ± 27 years, respectively) were lower than the average value between A.D. 1600 and 1900 (390 ± 60 years) from corals. It appears that the surface ocean was closer to isotopic equilibrium with CO2 in the atmosphere during these two time periods than it was during recent times. Seasonal d18O measurements from the younger coral are similar to modern values, suggesting that mixing with open ocean waters was indeed occurring during this coral’s lifetime. Likely explanations for the lower reservoir age include increased stratification of the surface ocean or increased D14C values of subsurface waters that mix into the surface. Our results imply that a more correct reservoir age correction for radiocarbon measurements of marine samples in this location from the time periods 3040 and 4930 cal years B.P. is 292 ± 30 years, less than the canonical value of 404 ± 20 years.