Grandpa Greenman Posted July 24, 2013 #51 Share Posted July 24, 2013 It doesn't make any sense, no question. So what if there is no God? What would another explanation be about suffering, then, that leaves God out of it? Bu then there's the suffering business, too. Not everyone suffers all the time, there's a lot of love & joy in the world. Who creates that? Any is there any reason why we should reasonably expect to live lives without hardship or to think it should all be easy? We do. We create love and joy. Love is a product of life. We also create a lot of suffering, too. I guess in the end it is our choice which we create. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikko-kun Posted July 24, 2013 #52 Share Posted July 24, 2013 What does "pragmatism" have to do with anything here?? I think it's the core reason why christians themselves, one who swing to a more pragmatist side. Pragmatist = rely more on what you know, instead of according the possibilities you wouldn't know, this leads to relying more on taking the old than the new ways and the old way has been to obey leaders for christians, like if pope says go crusade and slice up some people, you go. You wouldn't do that if you would think of the other possibilities a bit more. A religious pragmatist may not be directly nor always like that, but I think pragmatism and that sort of dogmatism are connected. Of course, those who are pragmatists in the deeper sense of the word shouldn't be religious in the first place, those I encountered seem to be atheists. But back in the days you couldn't always choose that. And even these days, many people are born to have their parents or school or even the society enforce a worldview on them. These days, those pragmatists who do stay in their religion, you could find them having a more literal sense on the bible for one. They either hold religion as something that's obviously true with arguments like "because bible exists, because all this is caused by god" or reject it. They're the ones you could probably convert easiest to atheism, because their mindset I think fits there more. Dont mean this as an insult, but if you think of it, ain't that a more natural place for them? Ultimatele pragmatist would think of this world as just a matrix like in the movie, if they could think the "what if"-way in the first place. The lack of this kind of thinking, I think it causes problems, because it's dogmatic. Without it you can't reform your ways so easily, unless pragmatist has a rule which tells them to rebel against status quo. Like in this case, dont know if mr. Jeremy's pragmatist though, doesn't sound like one. But his take on the subject does, even if it's in favor of a religion. What's the opposite of pragmatism? To be able to think multiple possibilities for why things are the way they are, and for how things can develop or can be. To be able to bend and continue your conjencture process from the point where you just observe reality, to keep things going on from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted July 24, 2013 #53 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I think it's the core reason why christians themselves, one who swing to a more pragmatist side. Pragmatist = rely more on what you know, instead of according the possibilities you wouldn't know, That`s not the definition of pragmatism. You are on a wild goose chase there. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mikko-kun Posted July 24, 2013 #54 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Dont think so, but I still did use a wrong word. Mixed pragmatism with the thing when you believe only what you see, existentialism? I guess there might be no fine word for believing only what you see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scowl Posted July 24, 2013 #55 Share Posted July 24, 2013 Why does there have to be a mystical creator? I have difficulties understanding why exactly the religionists find it so hard to free themselves of that irrational assumption. The Bible says there is. And I agree with Mr. Jeremy: the Old Testament made it perfectly clear to me that God created man purely for His entertainment. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted July 24, 2013 #56 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Did anyone stop and think, maybe this "god" is nothing more than pathological lying cult leader whose definition of creation of the world was nothing more than building say a temple, and calling it the world? Edited July 24, 2013 by Mystic Crusader Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted July 24, 2013 #57 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) I don't even know what god this guys talking about, but its not my god, my god doesn't feed off of peoples tears, my god doesn't enjoy seeing people suffer. I think he just wants somebody to blame for the way the world is and is using god as a crutch when its really human nature that's to blame. But hey once the brain believes something is a fact its very hard to change that brains thinking. Edited July 24, 2013 by R4z3rsPar4d0x 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted July 24, 2013 #58 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I don't even know what god this guys talking about, but its not my god, my god doesn't feed off of peoples tears, my god doesn't enjoy seeing people suffer. I think he just wants somebody to blame for the way the world is and is using god as a crutch when its really human nature that's to blame. But hey once the brain believes something is a fact its very hard to change that brains thinking. My Spaghetti Monster is better than your Spaghetti Monster! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted July 24, 2013 #59 Share Posted July 24, 2013 [/size] The Bible says there is. But that is circular logic! A book is true because it says it is true? Come on. That does not answer the question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted July 24, 2013 Author #60 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I don't even know what god this guys talking about, but its not my god, my god doesn't feed off of peoples tears, my god doesn't enjoy seeing people suffer. I think he just wants somebody to blame for the way the world is and is using god as a crutch when its really human nature that's to blame. But hey once the brain believes something is a fact its very hard to change that brains thinking. Doesn't that also apply to your dear belief? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WoIverine Posted July 24, 2013 #61 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) Be moral. Be ethical. Be compassionate. Be considerate to fellow lifeforms. Be kind to the nature. Be altruistic and egalitarian. Don't be selfish and greedy. Always act on moral ground. That's the ultimate rebellion against God, who created us to watch us suffer for entertainment. Not exactly sure how that equation works, but ok. Edited July 24, 2013 by WoIverine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted July 24, 2013 Author #62 Share Posted July 24, 2013 (edited) I dunno. It seems like vast majority of people are simply incapable of thinking of the evil God. Like I said, maybe I am defective. Here's the deal. I've read books about connecting genetics & neurology with spirituality and all of them agree that humans have innate instinct of believing in a benevolent deity, which is a form of coping mechanism. Again, in that aspect I guess I am a malfunctioning equipment. Edited July 24, 2013 by Ron Jeremy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted July 24, 2013 #63 Share Posted July 24, 2013 I dunno. It seems like vast majority of people are simply incapable of thinking of the evil God. Like I said, maybe I am defective. Here's the deal. I've read books about connecting genetics & neurology with spirituality and all of them agree that humans have innate instinct of believing in a benevolent deity, which is a form of coping mechanism. Again, in that aspect I guess I am a malfunctioning equipment. In human history there have been a lot of Gods who are not so benevolent. One example is the Norse god Loki he was the trickster., He was not a nice fellow. People use gods to explain things they didn't understand. The Abrahamic god is no different from the gods of other religions he has good and bad aspects. It just at this time in history he is rather popular. That could change. There is a polytheistic side in my religion. Nature has different aspects and they are represented by different Gods and Goddesses. We have the Green Man God of forest, he can also be a god of death. There is the Morgan who is an Irish Goddess of the battle field. She collects the warriors who die in battle. I don't think it is an instinct, just people anthropomorphizing the world around them so they can understand it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted July 24, 2013 Author #64 Share Posted July 24, 2013 In human history there have been a lot of Gods who are not so benevolent. One example is the Norse god Loki he was the trickster., He was not a nice fellow. People use gods to explain things they didn't understand. The Abrahamic god is no different from the gods of other religions he has good and bad aspects. It just at this time in history he is rather popular. That could change. There is a polytheistic side in my religion. Nature has different aspects and they are represented by different Gods and Goddesses. We have the Green Man God of forest, he can also be a god of death. There is the Morgan who is an Irish Goddess of the battle field. She collects the warriors who die in battle. I don't think it is an instinct, just people anthropomorphizing the world around them so they can understand it. That's very comforting, thank you. Since I pretty much freelance and today is off, I went to a local library and read a Buddhist magazine. While I was reading it I wanted to weep, but I didn't because I didn't want anyone to see me weep. Although there are so many conflicting views inside Buddhism, its teachings gave me a bit of a comfort. I tried to consider myself as a Unitarian, but I was afraid to go to their worship because of the fear of the malevolent God. I have this fear that God wants me to be under constant fear and ignorance, and if I try to break free, something bad might happen. To me, Old Testament pretty much sums up the nature of God I perceive. And I decided to give up fighting that God. To me, many Eastern spiritual teachings, although contradictory many times, gives great hope, insight, and enlightenment unlike that goddamn desert cult cooked up by one of the most vile savages in the human history, which ended up being the biggest religions in the planet Earth. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grandpa Greenman Posted July 25, 2013 #65 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Unitarians are not Christians, they are Pantheist. You might like it. They let us Pagans use their Church for rituals and classes. Christians would never let us use their Church. They feel all religions are all the same. Nice folks, kind of new age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted July 25, 2013 #66 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Why does there have to be a mystical creator? I have difficulties understanding why exactly the religionists find it so hard to free themselves of that irrational assumption. But it seems to be a real problem for a lot of people out there, Okay lets say there is no god, then all this whole thread is irrelevant Doesn't that also apply to your dear belief? What religion are you coming from, whats the specific name for it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scowl Posted July 25, 2013 #67 Share Posted July 25, 2013 I don't even know what god this guys talking about, but its not my god, my god doesn't feed off of peoples tears, my god doesn't enjoy seeing people suffer. Is your god the one that's in the Bible? If so then you really need to read the Old Testament and learn more about Him. God frightened the Israelites with punishment and death when they disobeyed trivial rules. God made them wander in the desert for years eating crappy manna when He could have easily wiped out the inhabitants of the Promised Land Himself with a plague and let the Israelites walk in unopposed. God didn't do this because He loves human violence and death. He demanded that the Israelites massacre people (including the unarmed women and children) only because of where they were living. And that's just one case of when God supported murder. I think he just wants somebody to blame for the way the world is and is using god as a crutch when its really human nature that's to blame. But hey once the brain believes something is a fact its very hard to change that brains thinking. OK then, maybe you shouldn't bother reading the Old Testament... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zaphod222 Posted July 25, 2013 #68 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Okay lets say there is no god, then all this whole thread is irrelevant Congratulations! You finally get it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted July 25, 2013 #69 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Congratulations! You finally get it. Yeah I finally get posting in this thread is pointless, thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ReaperS_ParadoX Posted July 25, 2013 #70 Share Posted July 25, 2013 Is your god the one that's in the Bible? If so then you really need to read the Old Testament and learn more about Him. God frightened the Israelites with punishment and death when they disobeyed trivial rules. God made them wander in the desert for years eating crappy manna when He could have easily wiped out the inhabitants of the Promised Land Himself with a plague and let the Israelites walk in unopposed. God didn't do this because He loves human violence and death. He demanded that the Israelites massacre people (including the unarmed women and children) only because of where they were living. And that's just one case of when God supported murder. OK then, maybe you shouldn't bother reading the Old Testament... Ill get right on that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted July 27, 2013 Author #71 Share Posted July 27, 2013 While I was helping out my father at his store today I had a lot of free time, so I browsed through many sites dealing with issues that I was wondering about. I came to a conclusion: God cannot be reasoned with. I can't get into the detail but evil alone can't describe the attribute of God. There's something else which is equally as bad as evil. When I was contemplating over such possibility, things started making more sense. Yeah, I don't think it's impossible to persuade God. You can't reason with God. You can't expect God to be rational. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoldenWolf Posted July 27, 2013 #72 Share Posted July 27, 2013 While I was helping out my father at his store today I had a lot of free time, so I browsed through many sites dealing with issues that I was wondering about. I came to a conclusion: God cannot be reasoned with. I can't get into the detail but evil alone can't describe the attribute of God. There's something else which is equally as bad as evil. When I was contemplating over such possibility, things started making more sense. Yeah, I don't think it's impossible to persuade God. You can't reason with God. You can't expect God to be rational. "God" place his wants above the needs of everything in the universe, he is "uncompromisingly selfish". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted July 27, 2013 Author #73 Share Posted July 27, 2013 I mean, I don't think is POSSIBLE to persuade God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Etu Malku Posted July 27, 2013 #74 Share Posted July 27, 2013 Of course you can't reason with or persuade what many believe is god, because god is Nature, the natural principles of the Universe, that which is under the Laws of Physics, not a consciously aware being making decisions and such, but a set of Principles that react upon one another and create cause and effect. Don't mess with Mother Nature! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ambelamba Posted July 28, 2013 Author #75 Share Posted July 28, 2013 Of course you can't reason with or persuade what many believe is god, because god is Nature, the natural principles of the Universe, that which is under the Laws of Physics, not a consciously aware being making decisions and such, but a set of Principles that react upon one another and create cause and effect. Don't mess with Mother Nature! No. I didn't mean by that. I mean...God is the epitome of lunacy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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