Is Nirvana person usefull to society?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

"Puno baba-kilavo dijete“ " Are you Croatian?

"Our economies should be growing if they have space to grow. Why not? You like miserable people? You like people without social and health? You like homeless? You like poverty?"

So there's lots of room for growth in Croatia? Everyone's happy, healthy, rich and well housed there? Must be because of all the Catholic monks there.

pax

Im.

Yes there is a lot of room for growth. Dont follow you with Chatolic thing.

If you seek reason why we didnt reach our potential it was because we were in war and we have had rough transition from socalism to capitalism. But be sure we are on way up.

[Frank Merton]

I think the mendicant monastic tradition is obsolete and has been replaced by the Christian model of the monastery that is productive and helpful, providing social centers, hospice care, grief assistance, counseling, artwork and craftsmanship, rituals, and, most important perhaps, a place where individuals finding themselves unable to cope can go temporarily to be sheltered and assisted. (Ironic as such monastaries disappear from the West)

[redhen]

Yes there is a lot of room for growth. Dont follow you with Chatolic thing.

I stand corrected, there are 7 Serbian Orthodox monasteries and 2 Catholic ones in Croatia. You seem to imply that monks, especially Buddhist monks, contribute nothing to society. If that was the case, they wouldn't have existed for hundreds and thousands of years.

Let me cite just one example;

"Between 1991 and 1993, during the Croatian War of Independence the monastery was broken into several times,^[2] and in 1995 it was abandoned, after which the church was devastated and desecrated, making it uninhabitable.^[3] Later, Bishop Fotije gave his blessing to Father Đorđe Knežević to begin with the reconstruction of the monastery. In autumn 2004, basic conditions were achieved for the return of monks."

"Monastery Dragović used to have a rich treasury, in which was kept a number of manuscripts from 16th-18th centuries, as well as very old books written in Greek, Latin, Italian, Russian and Church Slavic."

So despite all the attacks against them, monasteries are flourishing in Croatia, and have been keepers of much ancient knowledge. So they seem to be useful and the same can be said for Buddhist monasteries in Asia.

[White Crane Feather]

I just see you edited your post.

What about Utility ? Can follow you. You mean Marginal utility?

Goverment shoudnt sponsored stress. I used analogy of stress and anxiety to describe how ambitious by all definition impact economy. My posing ideas do work. We are in global viilage. Not one country is island. Well except North Korea and similar. History doesnt show that. History is only labratory where we can test ideas. Yet this isnt idea. This is science. Please dont tell me that all Buddhists are happy? What about health care, social insurence, education, apartments…

Why do I want that? I dont. I discuss. Even if I did want it would be because of science. What will I get? Better country for those people. And now you will say they are happy. Even I dont agree that all Buddhist are happy per se. But lets say I did. Maybe they are happy because they are under dogma and doctrines?

I wont maximize my happiness by own values. Its value of knowledge. Value of science. Science isnt mine.

As I already said that perfect markets dont exists. I used hypothethical situtation which you didnt grasp or kindly avoid.

Where did you read control of people? About increase of supply of labor…How do you know how will their economy developed? Lol. You are not taking all variables into account in your prime school example. That will happened IF all other variables stayed unchanged. Which will not stay.

Ofcourse that I dont think that if more people is working that more postive things would happend. And in economy it wanst explained by supply and demand but with theory that if we increase one input into production and others inputs leave the same we would have negative results. In my country there is saying: „Puno baba-kilavo dijete“ (More nanies-more akward baby) . Because of you terminology I see you have knowledge in it (my termionlogy is bad due language barrier). So if you are educated in it you know that economy progress goes on four wheels.

Our economies should be growing if they have space to grow. Why not? You like miserable people? You like people without social and health? You like homeless? You like poverty?

And I do not agree that when we mess with market we mess everytime. Its pesimistic view. Not well informed.

On this statement I can partly agree:

The whole concept doesn't work because you are imposing what you consider good upon other people that do not consider it good.

But tell me, how will invisible hand work if we dont have ambitious people?

Cheers!

Let me try to explain better. ( I don't mean to make anything sound personal... Just keep in mind that value systems are inherently personal)

Economics isn't really about money. You seem to understand this. Money is merely a medium for choice. Utility is the pleasure/happiness/value I get out of an action. If I buy something that I want I'm going receive X utility for it. The maximum I'm willing to pay for X say is $5. Why? Well there is something called opportunity costs. This is what I could do with that $5 if I did make that purchase. It's the utility that I'm missing out on if go with the the purchase ...opportunity cost = O.

Only when X>O will I make that purchase. At $5.01 is O>X I will not make that purchase. This gives me dollar representation of where my Demand for the product sits. But it's still not about money. It's about my willingness to purchase which money reflects.

Now the person selling the good to me goes through a similar process. The Good ( G) has an O as well. The supplier of G Gaines a X for owning it. Weather it be in using G herself or the value it represents by being able to sell/trade it to somone else. If O>X for selling the at $ at $4.99 them she will not sell unless someone is willing to pay $5 for it. At this point X<O. If you Understanding this, this is how the invisible hand works.

My Utility for consuming G is positive at $5. Lets just say 1U. Her utility for supplying G at $5 is also 1U. When we make the trade we get 2 units of 'happiness' generated in total. Society is now 2U happier.

In a macro sense and a free economy constant trades are happening all the time. If the economy is free and negative factors like buyers remorse... Monopolies, collusion, externalities, and other ills are avoided then positive and ever growing utility is constantly generated. The happiness of society increases. Jobs are created to progress utility, innovations are made, quality of life increases ...on and on. This is adam smiths "invisible hand".

If you artificially mess with the process ( which happens a lot) it should only be to minimize the impacts of some of the problems mentioned. The introduction of fiat systems throws a whole bunch of wrenches into the system and is a complicated subject. But we don't need to go there.

What you have preposed is that the a Buddhists choice of not makeing certain kinds of trades somehow limits the invisible hand principle, but nothing can be farther from the truth. You are only looking at the utility gained by a trade occurring, but have completely ignored the concept of opportunity cost. When the Buddhist chooses not to participate its because he gains more U from not makeing the trade than in makeing it. If he makes a trade and suffers for it then we now have the introduction of negative utility into the system. The goal of the system is to create an ever rising utility. In fact it completely destroys the invisible hand. This person cannot be motivated to innovate, create jobs, etc etc.

A centralized control of how people value something and policy to manipulate this is exceedingly dangerous from an economic perspective. Why? Economics tells us the self interest is inherent, and control policies that are directly aimed and well understood ills of econimies ( monopolies, collusion, externalities etc etc) are beneficial because they are trying to keep natural equilibriums intact. What you are proposing is manipulating that equilibrium based on a particular set of values that you gain utility from not necessarily other people. This does not maximize utility in a society it hinders it and hinders the invisible hand in the process.

Sheewwww you are bring me back to my university days. It's been a while since I have had to explain all that. A good exercise, thanks.

Edited July 30, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[Big Bad Voodoo]

White Crane Feather

I know what is utility, marginal utility and total utility.

But I still dont see how person who is not ambitous is link with it.

also Adam Smith hand ISNT what you describe. Hand needs ambitious individuals yet we have faith who made society be unambitious.

And we mess the process on daily basis and nothing happens. Example monetary politc.

I didnt proposed anything about Buddhists choice. I proposed they dont have energy, adventerous spirit, animal spirit (economic term), ambitions.

That way no matter did we even have perfect market theory of invisible hand will not work.

Let me simplify to you. Do plants effect invisible hand? Im not comparing plants with Buddhists just want to painted to you that human per se dont effect invisible hand. Ambitious human effect invisible hand. Utility is term among thousands economic term which we use in microeconomy.

We have three factors of production. Natural resources/Earth, Capital and Labour. Labour is most precious. Because you can have all infrastructures, energy, machine if you dont have educated and motivated people who will run these things and use it for progress?

Economy as science isnt exact science. You cant study economy as in labratory. Theory of supply and demand tells us that if prices go high demand will go low. Which we find that isnt so. As any science, economy is self correcting.

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I stand corrected, there are 7 Serbian Orthodox monasteries and 2 Catholic ones in Croatia. You seem to imply that monks, especially Buddhist monks, contribute nothing to society. If that was the case, they wouldn't have existed for hundreds and thousands of years.

Let me cite just one example;

"Between 1991 and 1993, during the Croatian War of Independence the monastery was broken into several times,^[2] and in 1995 it was abandoned, after which the church was devastated and desecrated, making it uninhabitable.^[3] Later, Bishop Fotije gave his blessing to Father Đorđe Knežević to begin with the reconstruction of the monastery. In autumn 2004, basic conditions were achieved for the return of monks."

"Monastery Dragović used to have a rich treasury, in which was kept a number of manuscripts from 16th-18th centuries, as well as very old books written in Greek, Latin, Italian, Russian and Church Slavic."

So despite all the attacks against them, monasteries are flourishing in Croatia, and have been keepers of much ancient knowledge. So they seem to be useful and the same can be said for Buddhist monasteries in Asia.

Tell me, who cares about Orthodox monastery in Croatia in thread we discuss?

I dont, It has nothing to do with Economy and Buddhism. Miss the point.

[White Crane Feather]

White Crane Feather

I know what is utility, marginal utility and total utility.

But I still dont see how person who is not ambitous is link with it.

also Adam Smith hand ISNT what you describe. Hand needs ambitious individuals yet we have faith who made society be unambitious.

And we mess the process on daily basis and nothing happens. Example monetary politc.

I didnt proposed anything about Buddhists choice. I proposed they dont have energy, adventerous spirit, animal spirit (economic term), ambitions.

That way no matter did we even have perfect market theory of invisible hand will not work.

Let me simplify to you. Do plants effect invisible hand? Im not comparing plants with Buddhists just want to painted to you that human per se dont effect invisible hand. Ambitious human effect invisible hand. Utility is term among thousands economic term which we use in microeconomy.

We have three factors of production. Natural resources/Earth, Capital and Labour. Labour is most precious. Because you can have all infrastructures, energy, machine if you dont have educated and motivated people who will run these things and use it for progress?

Economy as science isnt exact science. You cant study economy as in labratory. Theory of supply and demand tells us that if prices go high demand will go low. Which we find that isnt so. As any science, economy is self correcting.

I guarantee the higher the price the lower the demand. Were not taking about inflation here and nominal prices. The higher the real price the lower amounts of the good will be demanded. Without a doubt. Now there are things like abnormal goods that don't fit the model and behave differently to demand shifters and elasticities can play some roles, but supply and demand effects have been pretty much a fact for a long time.

You are kidding me right L we mess with market equilibrium a ALL the time. And tons of stuff happens. Just ask for an example I can give you dozen. Price ceilings, price floors, taxes, reserve rates, interest rates, etc etc. I'm not talking out if my butt L, I have a degree in economics and almost finished another in finance.

Buddhists are just as self interested as everyone else. Despite their non desire edict. They still have to eat and they will still consume. Case in point, the fastest growing economies in the world have very large Buddhists populations. . That pretty much seals it in reality. Even the Buddhists here in the states are very hard workers. They just don't complain about it as much and usually don't inebriated themselves after work every day.

Edited July 31, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[DystOpt]

Anyone that abandons the real or physical world in pursuit of the metaphysical is no longer benefiting society as we know it. They are concerned with self. Even if they eventually stop focusing on their own growth, they won't really benefit society as a whole. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't think the pursuit of nirvana is that laudable.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I guarantee the higher the price the lower the demand. Were not taking about inflation here and nominal prices. The higher the real price the lower amounts of the good will be demanded. Without a doubt. Now there are things like abnormal goods that don't fit the model and behave differently to demand shifters and elasticities can play some roles, but supply and demand effects have been pretty much a fact for a long time.

You are kidding me right L we mess with market equilibrium a ALL the time. And tons of stuff happens. Just ask for an example I can give you dozen. Price ceilings, price floors, taxes, reserve rates, interest rates, etc etc. I'm not talking out if my butt L, I have a degree in economics and almost finished another in finance.

Buddhists are just as self interested as everyone else. Despite their non desire edict. They still have to eat and they will still consume. Case in point, the fastest growing economies in the world have very large Buddhists populations. . That pretty much seals it in reality. Even the Buddhists here in the states are very hard workers. They just don't complain about it as much and usually don't inebriated themselves after work every day.

Take example good Bently. If the price of Bently go low demand go low. And economy decide this will be paradox. Veblen effect or "Rich" paradox. Why is that? Its because rich people MUST buy expensive things. For show. If price go low and they buy Bently their friends might think they are in crysis. Yes we mess the market all the time. You in USA dont because you dont have fix exchange rate. But look how many country have. Meaning its done on daily basis. Country must protect their exchange rate. Thats job of central bank. Its market of money.

And I realize already that you are educated in economy.

Also I like to know those fast growing economies. Because I know some "Buddhist" countries which is growing. But they are defenetly not fastest growing economy in the world.

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Anyone that abandons the real or physical world in pursuit of the metaphysical is no longer benefiting society as we know it. They are concerned with self. Even if they eventually stop focusing on their own growth, they won't really benefit society as a whole. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't think the pursuit of nirvana is that laudable.

My thought as well.

Isnt that selfish?

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L

[Frank Merton]

Anyone that abandons the real or physical world in pursuit of the metaphysical is no longer benefiting society as we know it. They are concerned with self. Even if they eventually stop focusing on their own growth, they won't really benefit society as a whole. Nothing wrong with that. I just don't think the pursuit of nirvana is that laudable.

Well I agree with you, but would like to clarify a couple things. First, it is the pursuit of "enlightenment," not Nirvana. Entry into Nirvana is reportedly one of the things enlightenment makes possible

Secondly, Buddhism teaches self-interest as a realistic teaching, not an idealistic one. That is, there is no way we can do anything for others except set an example. Preaching to them doesn't work; in the end we are all responsible for ourselves only ourselves, and things could not be otherwise.

As far as benefit to society is concerned, the criticism is well taken and has resulted in considerable change in how a lot of monasteries function, with far more emphasis on service to the needy, providing material aid, counseling and grief assistance, hospices, what have you. The one thing I would discourage monastic orders from getting involved in is politics.

As a final observation, I would say that my experience is that most ordinary people take out far more than they put in. Because of the self-denial aspect of being a monk, if they are "parasites" (a term taken from old Communist propaganda), they are less so than others.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

in the end we are all responsible for ourselves only ourselves, and things could not be otherwise.

Just read again this. Its defenition of selfishness.

[Frank Merton]

Just read again this. Its defenition of selfishness.

I guess how one interprets what one reads has a lot to do with the truth of one nature and on one's true perspective.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I guess how one interprets what one reads has a lot to do with the truth of one nature and on one's true perspective.

I agree. And my nature is that we are not just responsible for ourselves. But for our families, for our enviroment, Earth, pets, country, friends, coworkers...

[Frank Merton]

Ahn now I see; you misinterpret the word "responsible." Somelhow that you would manage to put a negative slant on what I posted does not surprise me. I can see why you don't seem to learn from your participation; you only look for things you can jump on to criticize. Well in this case go back and read the entire message in context and then I expect an apology.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

White Crane Feather,

as I said I notice you are educated, but economy is self correcting science. Many things are evolving. New theories. Now even GDP is indicator which almost show nothing. Even we use it as strong indicator. Every day we discover new paradox in economy. Such as

Pardox of enrichment- increasing food availible to ecosystem lead to instability even to exctinction Biology

Demographic economic paradox- societies with higher GDP per capita have fewer children even they are rich they can support more children.

Resource curse-societies with plenty non-renewable resources like minerals and fuels have less economic growth-Dutch disease or subconsc.

Game of theory, which I like a lot, is changing.

I wonder what do you think on Joseph Schumpeter theory if you know it. If not here is short defenition. Essence of economy is inovations. And they always came from Monopolists. Logicly.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Ahn now I see; you misinterpret the word "responsible." Somelhow that you would manage to put a negative slant on what I posted does not surprise me. I can see why you don't seem to learn from your participation; you only look for things you can jump on to criticize. Well in this case go back and read the entire message in context and then I expect an apology.

Sorry my mother language isnt English. As yours. Language barrier might bring some misunderstandings. But I read all your post and still dont get it.

Maybe you have to use your dictonary to explain me better. Because "responsiblity" means just one thing to me.

And in fact I think I need apoplogy for your claiming that I , qoute: "only look for things you can jump on to criticize"

You dont know that. And its not true.

[DystOpt]

White Crane Feather,

Essence of economy is inovations.

Large nation states can only survive through conquest. Otherwise, they eat themselves. Stagnation is death. In today's world, conquering your neighbor is frowned upon -- especially when a large nation is doing the conquering. So, where do large nations turn to "conquer" and acquire resources and treasure? They create and conquer new markets. This is innovation, and it is the lifeblood of large nations. This goes beyond "building the better mousetrap". This method of innovation is creating wholly new industries that before their creation were never dreamed of. It's creating a need that did not exist before.

But this is way off topic.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Large nation states can only survive through conquest. Otherwise, they eat themselves. Stagnation is death. In today's world, conquering your neighbor is frowned upon -- especially when a large nation is doing the conquering. So, where do large nations turn to "conquer" and acquire resources and treasure? They create and conquer new markets. This is innovation, and it is the lifeblood of large nations. This goes beyond "building the better mousetrap". This method of innovation is creating wholly new industries that before their creation were never dreamed of. It's creating a need that did not exist before.

But this is way off topic.

Its not offtopic. People who bring innovations are ambitious one. And I dont agree that state can survive only trough conquest. There are countless example of states with great life standards which almost never have had a war and neither have expansive politic.

But stagnation is death. And I think that Buddhism is about stagnation.

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L

[DystOpt]

Its not offtopic. People who bring innovations are ambitious one. And I dont agree that state can survive only trough conquest. There are countless example of states with great life standards which almost never have had a war and neither have expansive politic, exports...

I'm referring to large nation states. Smaller, largely homogeneous states that have a shared cultural identity can survive if not thrive. For heterogeneous states that incorporate a large area and a diverse population, conquest is the only means of survival.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

I'm referring to large nation states. Smaller, largely homogeneous states that have a shared cultural identity can survive if not thrive. For heterogeneous states that incorporate a large area and a diverse population, conquest is the only means of survival.

Economic conquest?

btw I edited my last post.

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L

[Big Bad Voodoo]

White Crane Feather you _____

I just realize that you changed your name. I start to wonder how we two never met each other on UM.

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L

[Frank Merton]

The optimum size for a nation is maybe 50,000 people. Larger than that and the leadership loses contact with the ground they are up so high.

Large nations with smaller neighbors naturally practice hegemony over their smaller neighbors; they aren't even aware of it a lot of the time. About all the smaller country can do is scream and holler and then try to get a better deal, good luck (a lot depends on other factors -- the nature of the hegemonic state, history, geographic issues, and so on. A better course for a small nation is to ally itself with more distant large neighbors and form treaty unions of various sorts with its fellow-small neighbors. Of course the hegemonic state opposes this, so it may not be.

I don't know that cultural homogeneity is such a good idea. Maybe it is more harmonious but it also sounds like a recipe for stagnation.

[White Crane Feather]

Take example good Bently. If the price of Bently go low demand go low. And economy decide this will be paradox. Veblen effect or "Rich" paradox. Why is that? Its because rich people MUST buy expensive things. For show. If price go low and they buy Bently their friends might think they are in crysis. Yes we mess the market all the time. You in USA dont because you dont have fix exchange rate. But look how many country have. Meaning its done on daily basis. Country must protect their exchange rate. Thats job of central bank. Its market of money.

And I realize already that you are educated in economy.

Also I like to know those fast growing economies. Because I know some "Buddhist" countries which is growing. But they are defenetly not fastest growing economy in the world.

The situation with a Bentley is accounted for in economics. You are still thinking in terms of dollars not utility. This is the biggest mistake when people start talking about economics. As I mentioned early dollars are a function of utility. The reason the demand might drop for a Bentley as the price lowers is because the utility of owning a Bentley is tied to its price. People own bentleys precisely because they are expensive and the utility is gained from the status statement. by lowering the price you lower the utility consumed by owning it. It's the same exact thing as getting less for paying less. No concepts of economics are violated. A similar be different mechanics effect happens with Top Ramen. It's known as an abnormal good. Consumption of normal goods goes up with higher incomes, but people consume more top Ramen when incomes drop. Why? Simple. It's cheaper. You get more marginal utility per dollar with top ramen so its consumption goes up when income drops.

I understand what you are saying about Buddhists L, but the lovely thing about economic is that it's a description. It study's the choices that people will make on average. No religous teaching can thwart human nature not Christianity, not Islam, not Buddhism. In fact there are markets for those religions as well. One if they key things that I have learned about markets is that it's completely impossible even for the Buddhist to separate yourself from it. I have made tons of money understanding this. ( well not tons, in not super rich ) but I can easily trade for $500 a day. Easy.

Market forces are powerfully complicated. When Somone gets a ideal and they don't understand the true effects of this ideal it can be disastrous. Just like the fiat system. It did not work in Rome , and it is not going to work for the world. It is a failing experiment. Have you ever wondered why you can buy 2000 year old roman coins for very cheap?

Messing with religious markets are still under the same rules.

China is the fastest growing super power. It's ranked 20th fastest, the other 19 are fairly small countries with specialized markets. I did my thesis on the Chinese economy a dozen years ago, and at the time I was planning to have a career in international finance. So.... Wo shu Edian chong wen

Edited July 31, 2013 by White Crane Feather

[Big Bad Voodoo]

White Crane Feather

The situation with a Bentley is accounted in economics. And its unique situations. And concept of economy is violated. Theory of demand is violated. And if you dont think that is violated. Here is another examlpe. Giffen paradox. Term paradox per se indicate that concept is violated.

But I do agree that they get less utility with less price. But thats not usual thing.

Price describe marginal utility not total utility or utility. And when price of product or service go high, MU consumed per monetary unit falls. So consumers use less that product and service. It explains Paradox of value as well. And thats the reason why the demand curve has a negative slope.

Who is Somone?

In China live only 18% Buddhists. Daosim is numero uno religion in China. Although majority is non religious.

Edited July 31, 2013 by the L