Did the Knights Templar worship Muhammad?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Listen, you *shakes tentacle*

Not today and not in this thread. It belongs to Templars, we can grab each other's throats over Bosnian census elsewhere.

I agree that we dont agree. But we only dont agree about origin of Bosniaks. On all else we agree. And we show us as hard core historians when we discuss it.

But still one thing bothers me. You said that Templars were protectors of Kathars. But Kathars were against Church. So in that sense Templars were against Church.

Or I dont understand subject well?

I read about Kathars and I never stumble upon Templar thing.

[Helen of Annoy]

I agree that we dont agree. But we only dont agree about origin of Bosniaks. On all else we agree. And we show us as hard core historians when we discuss it.

But still one thing bothers me. You said that Templars were protectors of Kathars. But Kathars were against Church. So in that sense Templars were against Church.

Or I dont understand subject well?

I read about Kathars and I never stumble upon Templar thing.

Dig deeper. Languedoc was the home of both Templars and Cathars.

Few of founders of the Templar order were from Cathar families – not priests, since Cathar priests and priestesses were not allowed to blood their hands.

So it was more than common enemy, the official church, that brought them together.

Maybe the recent fashion of denying the connection between them has something to do with new official Vatican stance that Templars were innocent, they probably don’t want it to spill over to Cathars, with their dualism, equality, vegetarianism and whatnot.

And – related to origins of names – name Cathar does not come from Cathar love for cats that went so far they kissed butts of cats or worshipped devil through worshipping cats. That is a load of medieval crap.

Name Cathar comes from Greek word “katharoi” – pure. They called themselves simply “good people” and in this part of the world they were “dobri kristijani” (good Christians) or Bogomil (bog – god, mil – from “mio”, dear to someone, therefore Bogomils – dear to god, pleasing to god).

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Dig deeper. Languedoc was the home of both Templars and Cathars.

Few of founders of the Templar order were from Cathar families – not priests, since Cathar priests and priestesses were not allowed to blood their hands.

So it was more than common enemy, the official church, that brought them together.

Maybe the recent fashion of denying the connection between them has something to do with new official Vatican stance that Templars were innocent, they probably don’t want it to spill over to Cathars, with their dualism, equality, vegetarianism and whatnot.

To tell you the truth I never read any book on Templars. Well one but spoke about others Knight orders such as Malta order, knights of Santiago, Order of st.John, Teutonics, Templars, Hospitallers. So its possible that they didnt include that info because Templars didnt get whole book but tiny part. But still.

Also I must say that I did read for a long time about Kathars and never stumble upon that info. But connections are obvious. Now after you reveal it to me. Last time I watched documentary about it and nothing. Well thats why we have UM. To learn something new and interesting.

Although I must say that I did study their beliefs in far greater extened then actually hisotry. But still...

Im surprised. Like it was a hidden info for me. Is that common knowledge or...?

Is there any battle where Templars defened Cathars?

Edited August 6, 2013 by the L

[Stardrive]

Anyway, simply put, the king of France wanted their money, and made up a fake process in order to discredit them and take their belongings (that were really huge)

King Pillip borrowed alot of money from the Templars and got in way over his head in debt to them. So, he had a "golly gee whiz, if I just".... moment...... and the rest is history.

[Dougward5]

Ok I am asking an honest question here because I am unsure of the answer. DID they excavate the supposed site of the temple of King Soloman ? And if so was it the right temple ? If they were poking around is it possible they found Knowledge of the other pagan Gods he worshiped ? As in 1 Kings 11

: 1 Solomon loved many foreign women. Besides the daughter of the king of Egypt he married Hittite women and women from Moab, Ammon, Edom, and Sidon. ² He married them even though the Lord had commanded the Israelites not to intermarry with these people, because they would cause the Israelites to give their loyalty to other gods. ³ Solomon married seven hundred princesses and also had three hundred concubines. They made him turn away from God, ⁴ and by the time he was old they had led him into the worship of foreign gods. He was not faithful to the Lord his God, as his father David had been. ⁵ He worshiped Astarte, the goddess of Sidon, and Molech, the disgusting god of Ammon. ⁶ He sinned against the Lord and was not true to him as his father David had been. ⁷ On the mountain east of Jerusalem he built a place to worship Chemosh, the disgusting god of Moab, and a place to worship Molech, the disgusting god of Ammon. ⁸ He also built places of worship where all his foreign wives could burn incense and offer sacrifices to their own gods.

If so it could explain part of the issues with the church...I know money was also a part ( as always) but I always suspected that those looking into the temple might have found the wrong one....

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Is there any battle where Templars defened Cathars?

No, Templars hardly defended themselves militarily. A number of their castles were beseiged, notably Miravet, but these were mostly bloodless and the Templars simply gave up. They really only defended themselves in court, but with the nature of the charges it is likely not many of them thought there would be any success. I know it does seem odd that a military order would meekly submit and not fight, but perhaps an analogy is with the Moscow show trials of 1930s, when the victims, Bukharin, Tukhachevsky etc, simply did not think anything like that could happen to them. They knew they were not guilty of anything, ecept maybe a living reproach to Stalin as those arrested were, in general terms, those leading Bolsheviks who were not cynical. Templars are one earlier manifestation of this nightmare. They never saw it coming, they never had a chance.

Edited August 7, 2013 by Tutankhaten-pasheri

[ShadowSot]

Is it only to keep them interesting as screenplay and conspiracy material or there’s some truth in numerous legends about secrets Templars successfully kept?

By the way, regarding this thread generally, not your post, Templars were armed protectors of Cathars, and anyone who has ever took a brief look at Catharism knows any “secret Muslim” theory is ridiculous.

Probably makes them good for conspiracy material, but it also takes a long time for the idea the Templars were innocent of the charges levied to filter through the public conciousness.

[Helen of Annoy]

To tell you the truth I never read any book on Templars. Well one but spoke about others Knight orders such as Malta order, knights of Santiago, Order of st.John, Teutonics, Templars, Hospitallers. So its possible that they didnt include that info because Templars didnt get whole book but tiny part. But still.

Also I must say that I did read for a long time about Kathars and never stumble upon that info. But connections are obvious. Now after you reveal it to me. Last time I watched documentary about it and nothing. Well thats why we have UM. To learn something new and interesting.

Although I must say that I did study their beliefs in far greater extened then actually hisotry. But still...

Im surprised. Like it was a hidden info for me. Is that common knowledge or...?

Is there any battle where Templars defened Cathars?

It took more than 20 years for Albigensian crusade to exterminate Cathars. Without military protection it would take 20 days to wipe out Cathars who shunned violence and believed this material world is the work of the evil god, therefore preferred death (liberation of soul from the corruptible body) to survival, especially if that survival involved shedding blood of others.

Further, many Templars were from Cathar families. Templars didn’t sympathize Cathars only because of Cathar modesty but also because of direct family ties.

Templar order was still viable at the time of persecution of Cathars, and so were their fortresses. So the friends and the family, be them Cathars or not, who took refuge in them were pretty much safe until the final fall of the Order.

For example, our Senj was Templar and it never fell. Senj was also one of fortresses of Frankopan family.

And look at this coincidence: Trsat shrine was founded by Templars and it was the Frankopans who brought Franciscans to Trsat and built them a monastery and the church there.

See where I’m going with this?

So the protection was literal, hiding Cathars inside Templar property walls, but let’s go back to 20-years campaign issue and it’s quite clear that pacifist Cathars had skilful military assistance from unknown someone. *winking at Templars* Especially at de Blanchefort family.

To sum it up, the answer to your question is: officially - no, but obviously - in all of the battles.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

To sum it up, the answer to your question is: officially - no, but obviously - in all of the battles.

Which I agree as there was no one great battle as such, they were spread to thinly over Europe, simply lower level actions. Still would have thought in the final days they would have fought for their lives. Clearly these Templar crusaders were true Christians that they went to their horrible deaths with some dignity, and knowing they were innocent in the sight of God and would go to Heaven. Well, to good an opportunity to make that point, to those who dispute such things

Edited August 7, 2013 by Tutankhaten-pasheri

[HollyDolly]

Well supposedly they excavated at Solomon's Temple.Now what they were looking for I have no idea. They didn't just suddenly arrieve in Jerusalem and start digging.

Some theories are that the Templars were sent there to look for something whether the Ark of the Covenant, some sort of golden treasure or whatever.

Also,I can recall the source right now,but a book i read puts forth the idea that the knights Templar were actually founded earlier than what is commonly believed to be their founding date.Also, St.Bernard of Clariveux, who founded the Cistercian Order wrote their rule of life, and may have had some family connection to some of the founders of the Templars.Most people only hear about the ones in France, but there were some in England, Spain,Portugal,andeven Germany.At their trial in Germany,the grandmaster and a contingent of knights showed up,and the grandmaster challanged the judges to trial by combat. After speaking his peace, he and the knights walked out the door and no one stopped them. Most likely they joined with the Knights Teutonic and went to the baltic area to fight in the crusades there.

Really haven't been able to learn much about them in Germany.Would like to since it might be possible relatives on my dad's side were members.

Also, the Knights Templars kept several heads in reliquaries,and I have seen a few photos of these. I think I t was in the book Templar revalations,which i have, that

mention was made of these heads, and that perhasp the Templars could have had contact with the Johannites. They were and are a religious group that reveres St.John the Baptist,the Mandeans being one such group who are followers of John the Baptist.That maybe the Templars through their time there in the Holy Land came in contact with these people.That maybe Baphomet was actually the head of John the Baptist.We really aren't sure where this name comes from.

Also, I think there is also some thought they may have some connection to the Black Maddonas. You can Google them.I'll have to get a book on the subject,but from what little I've seen, they are a sore subject with many in the catholic Church.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

Most likely they joined with the Knights Teutonic and went to the baltic area to fight in the crusades there.

Really haven't been able to learn much about them in Germany

If they joined Teutonic Knights then they joined too late, for their days of glory had mostly past by the time the Templars were disbanded. Alexander Nevsky had destroyed them sixty years earlier at the Battle on the Ice. At time of Templars end the crusading days of the Teutons had more or less come to an unsuccsesful end 15 or so years earlier. There was some activity until about 1320 then nothing until their second nemesis at Tannenburg 90 years later. Seems most Templars became Hostpitilars. Then of course there is the much disputed story of them becoming Freemasons. If true, and it seems unlikely, then perhaps it would have actually been good idea to supress them and burn the lot...

Edited August 7, 2013 by Tutankhaten-pasheri

[Helen of Annoy]

If they joined Teutonic Knights then they joined too late, for their days of glory had mostly past by the time the Templars were disbanded. Alexander Nevsky had destroyed them sixty years earlier at the Battle on the Ice. At time of Templars end the crusading days of the Teutons had more or less come to an unsuccsesful end 15 or so years earlier. There was some activity until about 1320 then nothing until their second nemesis at Tannenburg 90 years later. Seems most Templars became Hostpitilars. Then of course there is the much disputed story of them becoming Freemasons. If true, and it seems unlikely, then perhaps it would have actually been good idea to supress them and burn the lot...

You’ll know them by their fruits.

(I love quoting the Bible. I think it’s some reincarnative issue But that saying is perfect, found in the Bible too or not.)

So, no, Freemasons are not continuing the Templar idea or work.

[Zaphod222]

So, no, Freemasons are not continuing the Templar idea or work.

Well, in the strange world of the illuminati / reptilian / David Icke / 9-11 troothers / flat earth / nibiru conspiracy nuts, they do.

So it depends what universe you choose to live in.

[Tutankhaten-pasheri]

So, no, Freemasons are not continuing the Templar idea or work.

So Dan Brown is wrong, it's all fiction? My universe collapses

[Helen of Annoy]

Well, in the strange world of the illuminati / reptilian / David Icke / 9-11 troothers / flat earth / nibiru conspiracy nuts, they do.

So it depends what universe you choose to live in.

I am a conspiracy nut.

There’s a difference between us, conspiracy nuts, and them, conspiracy trolls, intentional or unintentional, who discredit obvious real facts by spinning fantastic theories around them.

As a conspiracy nut, I firmly believe Templars protected something precious, I believe their last expedition was able to sail away with it, I know for a fact that “heresies” like Catharism or Bogumilstvo were not wiped out and that they continue to discreetly influence the part of humanity born with a soul, but only a conspiracy troll would take seriously modern claims of Templar legacy in obviously superficial, egocentric, worldly power and material gain seeking societies.

Edited August 8, 2013 by Helen of Annoy

[Helen of Annoy]

So Dan Brown is wrong, it's all fiction? My universe collapses

Serve you right for stealing from the wrong book shelf