Why Men Oppress Women

[Blue Star]

Some would. Women would still accumulate less wealth in the long run. Women's clothes are, for reasons beyond my understanding, so much more expensive than men's (disregarding special work oriented clothing because that is situational). I never understood why women were charged more than men for less fabric (usually less sturdy fabrics too). That's why, since my mother let me pick out my first pair of shorts, I've worn men's clothes, regardless of how I identify.

I can imagine it. I can imagine it helping, slightly. I would like to see it achieved before we stop needing currency, should we ever reach that point.

Slightly! My!!…..Don't you get it?

It would be a revolution an out and out revolution….Imagine the real changes this would make.

The financial independence gained would free most women up from most constraints and all of what keeps them bound in subjugation… I question how deeply you have thought this through.

This isn't about clothes purchases…. It's about intellectual, emotion, financial, social, economic freedom and independence.

To be able to stand on your own feet and pay your own way.

Thats no slight improvement, that's a major turn around.

To make a sweeping statement like that…. 'That women would still accumulate less wealth in the long run', based on your clothes pricing is ill thought out.

When you consider the real on the ground ways women have had to manage to run most households on what their male counter part (allows) them. All that good housekeeping, working on a pittance most of them too, what women can scrape together and how far they make it stretch, through good planning. These are all valuable skills.

My, you seem to have discounted these skill sets of women…A very strange statement to make, indeed.

Edited August 5, 2013 by Blue Star

[ReaperS_ParadoX]

I think the history of the few women who have been actual rulers in this world is not bad -- Indira Gandhi, Margaret Thatcher, Elizabeth I, Katherine the Great, Hatshepsut, Golda Meir immediately come to mind. In fact, "not bad" is an understatement -- they were all quite good. Seems to me this is an experiment we should try a lot more often.

What about Elizabeth Bathory

[Frank Merton]

If we are to be at all happy, we have to live in the world as we find it and not complain about how it could be better. Male dominance is a fact of life; it is fine to work to alter that, but it is not fine to blame men for it. They are what they are.

The misrepresentation, followed by accusations of banality, of my view of women playing chess is an example. You cannot just deny the reality by asserting it doesn't exist.

[Michelle]

If we are to be at all happy, we have to live in the world as we find it and not complain about how it could be better. Male dominance is a fact of life; it is fine to work to alter that, but it is not fine to blame men for it. They are what they are.

The misrepresentation, followed by accusations of banality, of my view of women playing chess is an example. You cannot just deny the reality by asserting it doesn't exist.

There is also a misconception about women not playing as much, or being adept, at playing video games, but if you look up the statistics you would find that's not true either.

Saying something is true doesn't make it so.

http://en.chessbase.com/home/TabId/211/PostId/4005523

[Ratte]

Slightly! My!!…..Don't you get it?

It would be a revolution an out and out revolution….Imagine the real changes this would make.

The financial independence gained would free most women up from most constraints and all of what keeps them bound in subjugation… I question how deeply you have thought this through.

This isn't about clothes purchases…. It's about intellectual, emotion, financial, social, economic freedom and independence.

To be able to stand on your own feet and pay your own way.

Thats no slight improvement, that's a major turn around.

To make a sweeping statement like that…. 'That women would still accumulate less wealth in the long run', based on your clothes pricing is ill thought out.

When you consider the real on the ground ways women have had to manage to run most households on what their male counter part (allows) them. All that good housekeeping, working on a pittance most of them too, what women can scrape together and how far they make it stretch, through good planning. These are all valuable skills.

My, you seem to have discounted these skill sets of women…A very strange statement to make, indeed.

Now, hold up. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

Before I go any further, keep in mind that I am still legally female and will be for another several years.

Women make 77 cents on the dollar to what men make (on average) as of 2008. I'm not up to date with these figures. I fall into this category and have been the main breadwinner of my household since I was sixteen.

I have put more thought into gender inequality than you would think. In fact, it is something I struggle with daily. It is infuriating to hold the door for a man only to have him take the door and say "you first, ma'am". It's hard not to snarl and rant at those jerks who can't accept a small gesture of kindness because it comes from a "woman", a female. It's hard to hear "I'd hit you if you weren't a girl" and not lash out and break someone's nose or jaw because they underestimate me or my physical ability. When I get called to L&G to do a carry out for a customer, of something that weighs less than a hundred pounds, only to have them ask for a male employee because "lifting is a mans job", I want to pick up the item and throw it across the area because I know I can lift the item and more. When I assure them I can handle it and heft the item(s), usually salt bags, onto my shoulders, I get "you're strong for a girl!" and it makes me sick. It annoys me when the new guys in the back feel emasculated because I just moved a four-hundred pound trampoline onto a skid and it irritates me when we are short on staff and they send us young ladies with manicured nails to help unload trucks. Those same ladies say "I don't know how you guys do it!" Then they turn to me and say "especially you." What I want to say in that scenario is "you could too if you'd consume some protein and practice". I'd also like to comment about the pointless peacocking of the fake nails.

It makes me so angry to hear "We don't get many female players here. Where's your boyfriend?" When I go to card game tournaments. I went to the magic world tournament one year and was watching my male friend trade with a stranger. I saw a card I was interested in on one of the pages in the strangers binder. I opened my binder to look for a card of slightly higher value to tempt them to trade the card I wanted. I waited for a lull in the conversation and held up my binder and said "when you're done with [friend], I'd like to trade for your ." He looked over at me and said "oh, you keep your collection separate? How cute." My blood boiled. I saw red. I snapped the binder closed as close to his face as I could and said "well, you're not getting my foil Tezzeret." And stomped off.

I'm sick of hearing "gross, b*tch. Shave your legs."

I'm tired of people asking when I want to have kids. I don't.

Then the people who do accept me as male give me hell for sewing, babysitting the neighbors kids, liking women's sports...

While I agree that women should already be making the same amount as men (for equal work, that is), I don't see a twenty-three cent increase as truly revolutionary. The independence you speak of will only be achieved when gender roles are tossed aside.

It's about ideas, thoughts and feelings. Respect, not money. It's about political and personal power, equality. It's about breaking down the negativity in tradition.

Maybe it's different for me, but I believe in equal pay for equal work. I believe in accepting kind gestures and self preservation.

If a person hits me, they're just that- a person. A flesh and blood entity that wants to do harm to me. I'll hit back. I have no reservations based on gender.

Say what you will, but I see myself as an equality enthusiast, not a feminist. If you can play, you can play.

[Dan'O]

Having often wondered why women have been (and in some places still are) treated as inferior beings

Is it because some are man haters and some say sexist stuff like this?:

to make men's pathetic lives easier

[Frank Merton]

I dunno, there are good female chess players. So what? Look at the top lists, and don't just cite web sites that happen to fall in line with your views. I have no doubt women could play as well as men; the fact is they don't. I don't know the reason, but I have some good ideas about it, and I fail to see why some women can't do likewise.

[Lilly]

Is it because some are man haters and some say sexist stuff like this?:

Just so you know...I was responding to another poster who used the phrase "your pathetic lives" (women's lives). I was actually pointing out that such language was sexist.

Here's where it originated:

joc, on 04 August 2013 - 01:53 PM, said:

But, and...on a different note...not all is lost because look what you women have...dishwashers, washing machines, appliances of every description to make your pathetic lives a bit easier...and who invented them all? A man.

*bolding is mine

I responded by stating that a woman invented the dishwasher and also Kevlar body armour to make men's "pathetic lives a bit easier". I was being sarcastic in order to point out sexist language.

So who's the "hater" now?

Edited August 6, 2013 by Lilly
addition

[Michelle]

I dunno, there are good female chess players. So what? Look at the top lists, and don't just cite web sites that happen to fall in line with your views. I have no doubt women could play as well as men; the fact is they don't. I don't know the reason, but I have some good ideas about it, and I fail to see why some women can't do likewise.

Why don't you post a link to back up what you are asserting as fact?

[Frank Merton]

Take a look at the list of grand masters, or the list of world champions. Sheesh you tire me. Until you accept the actual situation you willl never be able to do anything about it.

[Michelle]

Take a look at the list of grand masters, or the list of world champions. Sheesh you tire me. Until you accept the actual situation you willl never be able to do anything about it.

I'm not the one who is constantly redundant.

[Blue Star]

Now, hold up. Don't go putting words in my mouth.

Before I go any further, keep in mind that I am still legally female and will be for another several years.

Women make 77 cents on the dollar to what men make (on average) as of 2008. I'm not up to date with these figures. I fall into this category and have been the main breadwinner of my household since I was sixteen.

I have put more thought into gender inequality than you would think. In fact, it is something I struggle with daily. It is infuriating to hold the door for a man only to have him take the door and say "you first, ma'am". It's hard not to snarl and rant at those jerks who can't accept a small gesture of kindness because it comes from a "woman", a female. It's hard to hear "I'd hit you if you weren't a girl" and not lash out and break someone's nose or jaw because they underestimate me or my physical ability. When I get called to L&G to do a carry out for a customer, of something that weighs less than a hundred pounds, only to have them ask for a male employee because "lifting is a mans job", I want to pick up the item and throw it across the area because I know I can lift the item and more. When I assure them I can handle it and heft the item(s), usually salt bags, onto my shoulders, I get "you're strong for a girl!" and it makes me sick. It annoys me when the new guys in the back feel emasculated because I just moved a four-hundred pound trampoline onto a skid and it irritates me when we are short on staff and they send us young ladies with manicured nails to help unload trucks. Those same ladies say "I don't know how you guys do it!" Then they turn to me and say "especially you." What I want to say in that scenario is "you could too if you'd consume some protein and practice". I'd also like to comment about the pointless peacocking of the fake nails.

It makes me so angry to hear "We don't get many female players here. Where's your boyfriend?" When I go to card game tournaments. I went to the magic world tournament one year and was watching my male friend trade with a stranger. I saw a card I was interested in on one of the pages in the strangers binder. I opened my binder to look for a card of slightly higher value to tempt them to trade the card I wanted. I waited for a lull in the conversation and held up my binder and said "when you're done with [friend], I'd like to trade for your ." He looked over at me and said "oh, you keep your collection separate? How cute." My blood boiled. I saw red. I snapped the binder closed as close to his face as I could and said "well, you're not getting my foil Tezzeret." And stomped off.

I'm sick of hearing "gross, b*tch. Shave your legs."

I'm tired of people asking when I want to have kids. I don't.

Then the people who do accept me as male give me hell for sewing, babysitting the neighbors kids, liking women's sports...

While I agree that women should already be making the same amount as men (for equal work, that is), I don't see a twenty-three cent increase as truly revolutionary. The independence you speak of will only be achieved when gender roles are tossed aside.

It's about ideas, thoughts and feelings. Respect, not money. It's about political and personal power, equality. It's about breaking down the negativity in tradition.

Maybe it's different for me, but I believe in equal pay for equal work. I believe in accepting kind gestures and self preservation.

If a person hits me, they're just that- a person. A flesh and blood entity that wants to do harm to me. I'll hit back. I have no reservations based on gender.

Say what you will, but I see myself as an equality enthusiast, not a feminist. If you can play, you can play.

In no way did I intend to put words in your mouth Ratte. My apologies if this is how i have come across.

I hear you, yes indeed.

You're sick, tired and angry at the injustice, false and flawed stigmas put on gender, Yes. I truly have an appreciate for your experiences to date.

Yet, This is not solely an American issue, so trying to state wage percentages of the average American doesn't really address anything. This is a global issue and not a parochial one.

As a global issue,

The situation stands, rightly or wrongly that money rules and with it comes power.

Globally, when you add up all those, what may seem to you insignificant profits and losses, it really does make a tremendous amount of difference.

Let's face it…If it didn't, we would all be on equal pay now or we would have abandoned the ridiculous monetary systems all together by now.

Whilst i agree…..It is not solely or primarily about money…. I had thought I had made this clear in my previous posts?

It is however still about money for a lot of people in a lot of the world.

People are dying trying to survive in this money oriented so called civilisation.

An example,

in many parts of the world even in 2013 we are forced to do all sorts of things we wouldn't need to do if we had equal pay…..My, you do realise don't you …That we still have human trafficking and slavery in some parts of the world? So please don't go blind to the power money has in this issue of this thread….. Which if i may repeat is that of…... 'Why men oppress women'.

I am trying to express my thinking upon this matter.

Do you understand Ratte?

[flbrnt]

Think that men TEND to opress women, it is not universal by any means. Men tend to be physically bigger and women are incapacitated at times by child bearing. The big mystery is why so many women go along with it. I still havent figured that one out. Women are a slight majority and womankind has considerable latent power, yet so many join in the oppression of themselves.

[Frank Merton]

I'm not the one who is constantly redundant.

I'm "redundant." That's a new one. When can I expect my pink slip?

[Blue Star]

Take a look at the list of grand masters, or the list of world champions. Sheesh you tire me. Until you accept the actual situation you willl never be able to do anything about it.

Until you except the why of how this is the case you will remain ignorant…or should that be arrogant….meh…. take your pick, both fit.

Total dismissal of the history of this world and how we got here.

[Frank Merton]

Physical size no doubt has a lot to do with male dominance in history, but that should be history. The question us why it persists. I think this is just tradition and in time will go away, but I'm not sure. We need to learn a lot more about what makes the sexes different, and approach it objectively, without some ideological insistence on equality in all things.

[Frank Merton]

Until you except the why of how this is the case you will remain ignorant…or should that be arrogant….meh…. take your pick, both fit.

Total dismissal of the history of this world and how we got here.

Go back and read the entire thread.

[ShadowSot]

For all his shortcomings and contradictions, Paul contributed this to the development of Christianity: "There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female..." (see, also, Colossians 3:11).

Now, if I were a skeptic or militant atheist, I might say: "Scripture is irrelevant piffle." If I were a Christian apologist, I might say, "Evidence of tolerance and acceptance." As it is, I merely say, "Let those who have ears to hear. . ."

or if I were a skeptic I'd point out that in Timothy he states he does not suffer a woman to teach or have authority over a man, and that the Bible in whole tends to be misogynist. It also plays into the point of view that you can justify almost any point of view with the Bible.

Take a look at the list of grand masters, or the list of world champions. Sheesh you tire me. Until you accept the actual situation you willl never be able to do anything about it.

In scientific fields women's achievements were often repressed or unacknowledged until more recent times.

They were actively prevented from going into scientific fields because the idea was that women's brains just weren't strong enough.

Due to this mentality, women are still underrepresented in various fields of science.

The mentality is still present when women set out their life goals.

[Blue Star]

Go back and read the entire thread.

I have……. I suggest you go and study history.As your reasoning for why it is men who have done this that and the other and why women haven't is flawed.

[Lilly]

Honestly, I tend to think that a board game invented by men and for men probably doesn't appeal to many women...and that's why there are so few female master chess players.

As to the issue of female oppression and why more women don't rise up and rebel...many women have been raised to absolutely believe (often by the power of religion or the state) they are inferior and therefore deserve how they are treated.

[Frank Merton]

Well you all have done a good job of losing me. You seen completely out of touch with reality with with your distortions of what I said and ideological approach and rationalizations. When people deny simple facts and engage in such debate I want nothing to do with it. It's worse than arguing with believers in Sasquatch.

[Blue Star]

Yes, Liily.

…..Have you ever heard the story of how cruel circus trainers would get the elephants so they never break free of their chains?

They take a baby elephant and they chain it to a huge cuff and chain…

The baby elephant tries and tries to get its self free but the chain is way way, too big for that little baby elephant to move.

As the baby elephant grows it grows into the cuff around its leg.

By the time it fits the cuff it has learnt…Mostly from exhaustion, that it is futile to even attempt to break free.

It has been fooled into believing time and time again, it can not be free, the chain is too big, too heavy.

When finally the grown elephant is big enough to actually physically break free of its bondage. it doesn't believe it can.

So doesn't even try.

The elephant gives up.

Do you see,

How this story is true of all of us?

We are are chained in some way to unquestioned beliefs held from childhood supported by propaganda.

No matter how big the elephant gets in the middle of the room.

We ignore, dismiss, make excuses, deny its existence even.

Harrowing to think…What art, music, chemistry, medicine…...All that waste. Gone because of narrow minded sexist unfounded attitudes.

It makes my heart despair.

[No Censorship]

Physical size no doubt has a lot to do with male dominance in history, but that should be history. The question us why it persists. I think this is just tradition and in time will go away, but I'm not sure. We need to learn a lot more about what makes the sexes different, and approach it objectively, without some ideological insistence on equality in all things.

It still persists in countries where gender differences in size and strength matter. Look at Saudi Arabia. Sure, the oppression is cultural, but it would be different if there was physical parity. The women would have broken their bounds years ago if they had been equal to, maybe even greater than, men in that regard.

[+joc]

I never said it was solely for this reason.

Can you imagine, though…If women were paid the same as men? So many of the other reasons would be nullified.

The problem is Man's Ego. Seriously, what can you women do to a man? Seriously, destroy his Ego! Man, want sex. Woman no want sex. Bruised Ego. Women have Egos too of course...but the Man Ego. It will cause a Man to kill a Man over nothing. Nothing more than a bruised ego. Wages? Same thing. You are going to pay HER the same as ME?? No way! Men are better than women (Man's ego). Men are stronger than women (Man's Ego). Men are smarter than women (Man's ego). There are a lot of things men do that women just can't. But it is vice versa as well.

Women are baby machines. (Man's ego).

I have never heard the phrase, Hell has no wrath what like a man scorned. I grew up with two sisters. Never had a brother until I was fifteen. Now, I have a wife, a daughter, three female dogs, 5 hens and an LGBT fish. (cause we aren't sure of it's gender).

But, regardless of my understanding of women...regardless of my love of women...regardless of my desire to bring equality to the sexes...and I'm being serious now, not joking, there is still a part of my ego that truly thinks men are superior. I don't know if that is testosterone, or genetics, or what...and I know that it isn't true...men are not superior to women...but there is a part of my ego that still thinks that. This is why I tend to tell my ego to go take a nap often!

[No Censorship]

We lose interest in things we are not good at; or maybe the obverse is the case and we never become good at things we have little interest in. Your description of the boys is the point.

Many dedicated athletes wouldn't agree with that. Some of them overcame actual disabilities in their quest for Olympic gold.