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danielost

Disrespect for those who deserve respect

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Kowalski

It's like a country or a state and a flag, would you find if offensive if you are driving down one of your Texas roads, and on the side of the road, there is a flag for the state of Maine, or China perhaps?

I really wouldn't care to be honest....

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GoldenWolf

I really wouldn't care to be honest....

Alot of people do care.

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Kowalski

Alot of people do care.

Why? I mean why does it bother people so much? If someone, choses to erect a cross where a loved one has died, why does it bother a few atheists? You have every right to believe whatever you want, and I have no problem with atheists or agnostics. I just don't understand why anyone would have a problem with a cross, commemorating someone's memory....

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Michelle

Why? I mean why does it bother people so much? If someone, choses to erect a cross where a loved one has died, why does it bother a few atheists? You have every right to believe whatever you want, and I have no problem with atheists or agnostics. I just don't understand why anyone would have a problem with a cross, commemorating someone's memory....

In the national civil war military parks, and various places where large battles were fought, there are monuments devoted to every states' people who died in the war.

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ShadowSot

It is true Shadow.

What are atheists erecting a monument to? Well, it's got to be something and all religions erect monuments.

Not only religions erect monuments. And the reason for this monument is as a method to get the ten commandments removed from the courthouse.

Why are there atheists trying to spread the word? Via billboards, public displays and generally spreading the word.

SPeaking as someone who is currently working to get one of these set up we are trying to let people know it's ok to be atheist and to let peope know they are not alone. businesses advertise as well.

When a group of people begin to erect monuments and public displays and try to garner a following it begins to cross the line of religion. Real atheists are not to be bothered by any religion. They are not supposed to care one way or the other. I know real atheists and the last thing they care to do is stick their nose in religion at all.

Yeah right. We do care, when religion is given preferential treatment over other religious groups, or laws are passed to favor the religious over non-religious.

And also, the could give a rats ass about Manger Scenes, crosses on the highway or people saying Merry Christmas instead of the retarded 'happy holidays.'

No problem with manger scenes on private property, or even on public property provided other religions get to set up their displays as well.

And first, Happy Holidays started with Christians, actually. And it's a response by businesses, not the secular movement, to be more welcoming to more customers.

Christmas as we know t is as American as apple pie and anyone who gets offended by hearing it or seeing it seriously needs a hobby.

Agreed, do you know David Silverman and Richard Dawkins both have a christmas celebration?

Those types of atheists are the fun police and have nothing better to do than stick their nose in everyone else's good time to ruin it.

Real atheists have better things to do like ignore religion and have a life. Making mountains out of mole hills by suing every county with a cross on the highway or a cross near the borough building is just looking for fights because those things aren't some gigantic influence that people can't resist. They might be religious symbols but they are also embedded in American culture and should just be left alone. Nobody cared until these atheists on a mission showed up and still no one cares but them. Hmm, who else goes on missions?

Christians use these symbols as proof of the US being a Christian Nation, now personally I'm fine with crosses on roadside, but arguing that exceptions should be made to the Constitution for tradition is simply wrong.

Look, just move them to private land, put the ten commandments up on your church's property, not the courthouse.

If you don't care about them, then just place them on private property where they belong, not on public land.

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Beckys_Mom

Here in the South, you can say just about anything about someone and add bless their heart so it's not really an insult...like they can't help it if they're ignorant, bless their heart. :whistle:

They aren't being ignorant in the South, I feel they should be able to say what they like and be left at that... I hate how political correctness like to bully others into their way of thinking...

It annoys me just as much as those chanting - "Show some tolerance"... I do not think anyone should feel obligated to do this, I think it is up to you if you wish to tolerate it all or not...

Usually those chanting - Show tolerance, are those that will praise other known religious faiths, and frown on Christians because they don't fear them..

I saw this on here too.. One of my friends was picked on for a comment which was not on a religious board, he didn't say anything Christian, but because a few liberals didn't like his words, they shone him, saying things like - "Its absurd a fundamental Christian should say this and that"...

I read it and thought - HOLD UP ...WHAT?? There wasn't anything in his post that was Christian, so they are looking for any reason to spout stupid rubbish... Granted yes he is a Christian and well known on here, but that doesn't mean he should be jumped on for his views on any other thread .. What they were saying is - Regardless what this Christian guys opinion is, it MUST be a fundie thinking? Go figure !.. :hmm:

When I see these things happen, it makes me cringe...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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ShadowSot

Why? I mean why does it bother people so much? If someone, choses to erect a cross where a loved one has died, why does it bother a few atheists? You have every right to believe whatever you want, and I have no problem with atheists or agnostics. I just don't understand why anyone would have a problem with a cross, commemorating someone's memory....

You keep mentioning roadside crosses... mind pointing out where this happened and who was behind it?

And could we get back to the real cases, where Christian monuments are being placed on government land?

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Kowalski

You keep mentioning roadside crosses... mind pointing out where this happened and who was behind it?

And could we get back to the real cases, where Christian monuments are being placed on government land?

I thought that was the topic?

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ShadowSot

Just to be clear, from the definition of religion given in this thread, we can also accept that sports, politics, and various fandoms are also religions, right?

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ShadowSot

I thought that was the topic?

No, the topic seems to be that trying to remove these monuments on government property to Christianity insults those people who died for them, somehow.

Someone else brought up roadside crosses.

So, where'd this happen then? Was it actually some group like American Atheists or a lone jackalope?

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GoldenWolf

Christians use these symbols as proof of the US being a Christian Nation, now personally I'm fine with crosses on roadside, but arguing that exceptions should be made to the Constitution for tradition is simply wrong.

Look, just move them to private land, put the ten commandments up on your church's property, not the courthouse.

If you don't care about them, then just place them on private property where they belong, not on public land.

I agree with that^

Danielost/Kowaliski

As a memorial for a fallen loved one, I don't have a problem with that (A state route near where I live has dozens of them) . It is the ones who erect them for the sole purpose of establishing or showing supremacy/dominance that p's me off.

Edited by Mystic Crusader

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Michelle

I agree with that^

Danielost/Kowaliski

As a memorial for a fallen loved one, I don't have a problem with that (A state route near where I live has dozens of them) . It is the ones who erect them for the sole purpose of establishing or showing supremacy/dominance that p's me off.

Could you give me an example of what you're referring to? I mean, not on historical buildings, churches, monuments, Christmas or other Christian holidays. I've never gotten bent out of shape because I see menorahs or any other religious symbols either.

Edited by Michelle

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danielost

I don't understand why an atheist would feel unwanted because they saw a cross on the side of the road when their doing 60mph.

I don't even see it being an issue, unless your trying to shove your belief's down my throat.

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danielost

This thread is about being respectable to those who have fallen in war and their families and communities. But the road side crosses should fit in here too.

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Michelle

I don't understand why an atheist would feel unwanted because they saw a cross on the side of the road when their doing 60mph.

I don't even see it being an issue, unless your trying to shove your belief's down my throat.

As an Atheist, none of it has ever bothered me in the least. I could care less what kind of symbol is where and I don't feel the need to announce that there are people like me out there. It's fairly common knowledge.

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F3SS

.....

Not only religions erect monuments. And the reason for this monument is as a method to get the ten commandments removed from the courthouse

But now it seems they've joined the club. If they don't want public displays then stick with the conviction. How could placing their own monument further the argument of removing another display. Besides, what is wrong with the commandments? Few of us follow them all but they aren't bad advice.

Speaking as someone who is currently working to get one of these set up we are trying to let people know it's ok to be atheist and to let people know they are not alone. businesses advertise as well.

Who is afraid to be atheist? Sure, some people come from overly religious families but they already know atheism exists and no billboard is going to give them the confidence to tell grandma she's full of it. There are some crazy families out there that won't here of it but that's just something that exists in the world. These aren't medieval times. Religion is still huge and it always will be but it doesn't grip the world as it once did. Except maybe for some Muslim nations and scientologists. But seriously, just because the ten commandments are hanging up in the city hall hallways doesn't mean that's going to effect the way officials govern and judge. If they're religious they're going to govern and judge that way anyways. It is the community who chooses whether that is right or not.

Yeah right. We do care, when religion is given preferential treatment over other religious groups, or laws are passed to favor the religious over non-religious.

And it shouldn't but the mere presence of the cross or manger or whatever isn't going to make a difference in how the people create the laws they do. What I mean is that it isn't influential to anyone who doesn't care to be influenced by it. Does electing a far right conservative mean he won't invoke a bit of his religious beliefs in the laws he writes if no cross is present near him? No. And if a cross is near him it doesn't mean he's going to write laws verbatim from the bible either. These symbols are representative of a community. I'm sure the atheist bench didn't receive a lot of positive attention or giant crowds. If they did it is unlikely that they were all from the community.

No problem with manger scenes on private property, or even on public property provided other religions get to set up their displays as well.

And first, Happy Holidays started with Christians, actually. And it's a response by businesses, not the secular movement, to be more welcoming to more customers.

Well why would you want 5 religions influencing politics instead of one? Fairness? Blah! You're supposed to be an atheists. Your only conviction is that you don't believe and that no religion should influence politics. I say influence because that's all I can gather that bothers you about these things. Otherwise, why would you care at all if you're ok with several religions on public property.

Agreed, do you know David Silverman and Richard Dawkins both have a Christmas celebration?

I could google them and pretend like I know but I don't know these guys although they sound familiar. This isn't a real passionate subject for me but I do have a lot thoughts on it.

Christians use these symbols as proof of the US being a Christian Nation, now personally I'm fine with crosses on roadside, but arguing that exceptions should be made to the Constitution for tradition is simply wrong.

Just because a cross is on a state owned highway, well, I don't see that as a complete breach of the separation of church and state. Again, it is a large part of Americana and I'll bet 99% of people don't give these things a second thought. This brand of finger pointing atheism seems to me to be another attempt at creating a special minority group.

Look, just move them to private land, put the ten commandments up on your church's property, not the courthouse.

If you don't care about them, then just place them on private property where they belong, not on public land.

I agree the best place for all this is at a church but I think it was last year some atheist sue group had a fit about a manger in front of a church in the middle of a downtown city and I guess since it was either too public of a view or the church only leases the property from the city that they made a big fuss. It's nonsense. There really is a group of nosy atheists who travel the country seeking out offenses. It's not exactly doing anybody a service that I can see. I think atheists need to just accept that they live in a religious country with the satisfaction of knowing that religion is not nearly as in your face as it used to be. There will be a more equal balance between atheists and the religious but it won't happen overnight. It will however happen. Lastly, the best things come when you wait. Not when you force it to happen. It just creates animosity.

That's my huge gripe with progressives. They want to force feed a new world down everyone's throats instead of letting progress happen naturally.

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danielost

Shadow you do know that public land belongs to everyone, not just to the atheists. And, as I said before mkst of these monuments are payed for with privite money.

So if a community wants to put a cross or the ten commandments up at the courthouse or city hall why should you stop them from doing so. You didn't pay for it. If your like most people you don't go anywhere near the court house, unless you drive by it. Where have you been harmed by that monument.

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Beckys_Mom

This thread is about being respectable to those who have fallen in war and their families and communities. But the road side crosses should fit in here too.

True, very true... But stopping them from their right to protest it all is opening up a door to more agro and chaos... Ironically for a country that has a lot of Christians ( Protestants & Catholics ) living there, it will likely turn on them, giving more rights to others of a different religion and pathway...That could happen over here too... Irony, the planet is made up with it..

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HerNibs

No, it is not the way you say it. I have been told I should do my worship only n my home away from my children(I don't have kids). These monuments are to the men and women whi died for you to tell us to remove that cross or not put that star of david on a monument to those who died in the holocaust.

Seattle this week ordered ts employees not to use tge word citizen, because it might upset someone.

The constitution does not say seperation of state and religion. It says congresss shall make any laws to establish a state religion or the freedom to worship any religion. Which is exactly what the liberal courts are doing.

Well, many atheists in my family served and are serving. Some lost their lives. Until VERY recently, they couldn't have a symbol that represented THEM.

Most atheists don't want someone else's belief system to dictate what is right and wrong and how they should live. That's it. Just like in religion, there are always those who take it too far.

Don't start on the "fought and died" stuff. Atheists, pagans, muslims, christians, hindus, etc. fought and died for our rights.

Nibs

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HerNibs

Shadow you do know that public land belongs to everyone, not just to the atheists. And, as I said before mkst of these monuments are payed for with privite money.

So if a community wants to put a cross or the ten commandments up at the courthouse or city hall why should you stop them from doing so. You didn't pay for it. If your like most people you don't go anywhere near the court house, unless you drive by it. Where have you been harmed by that monument.

Ok, cool. So if a private individual wishes to put an altar to Odin in the courthouse, you're ok with that? And an altar to Satan, a statue of LRon Hubbard?

Nibs

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HerNibs

Eh, regarding the roadside memorials...I believe many states ruled them either distractions and/or litter. The thought behind them is fine but after a year in the elements and it's not tended to regularly it becomes broken wood with bits of silk attached.

IMO - you want to honor some one who lost their lives on a stretch of road? Sponsor it, clean it like many business do. There would even be a sign that says who is being honored.

Nibs

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ShadowSot

I don't understand why an atheist would feel unwanted because they saw a cross on the side of the road when their doing 60mph.

Again... proof of this? No one in this thread has a problem with these.

I don't even see it being an issue, unless your trying to shove your belief's down my throat.

Well, i'd hate to get in the way of you Christians forcing your beleifs.

But now it seems they've joined the club. If they don't want public displays then stick with the conviction. How could placing their own monument further the argument of removing another display. Besides, what is wrong with the commandments? Few of us follow them all but they aren't bad advice.

They provide counter point by listing the punishments for the tend commadnments being broken, all were met with death.

And the first few only refer to worshiping god or concerning whether you should not have graven images. The rest are sort of ok, but are absolutes and don't allow for any circumstances.

And they are strictly religious. Erect them at your church, if you want to, not at a courthouse.

[/quote

Who is afraid to be atheist? Sure, some people come from overly religious families but they already know atheism exists and no billboard is going to give them the confidence to tell grandma she's full of it.

Atheists are the least trusted minority in the US. Coming out as an atheist can cost your community, family, and friends. I've met many where this is the case. You speak here clearly of what you do not know.

And it shouldn't but the mere presence of the cross or manger or whatever isn't going to make a difference in how the people create the laws they do. What I mean is that it isn't influential to anyone who doesn't care to be influenced by it. Does electing a far right conservative mean he won't invoke a bit of his religious beliefs in the laws he writes if no cross is present near him? No. And if a cross is near him it doesn't mean he's going to write laws verbatim from the bible either. These symbols are representative of a community. I'm sure the atheist bench didn't receive a lot of positive attention or giant crowds. If they did it is unlikely that they were all from the community.

How 'bout just put it up your church. Seriously, stop trying to get your religious ornaments put up on state land and we're cool.

Well why would you want 5 religions influencing politics instead of one? Fairness? Blah! You're supposed to be an atheists. Your only conviction is that you don't believe and that no religion should influence politics. I say influence because that's all I can gather that bothers you about these things. Otherwise, why would you care at all if you're ok with several religions on public property.

You're right, like I said earlier I don't want any put up. I'd rather religions stick to their churches and private schools when putting up their monuments.

I could google them and pretend like I know but I don't know these guys although they sound familiar. This isn't a real passionate subject for me but I do have a lot thoughts on it.

"I don't know anything about the subject, but let me tell you my uninformed opinion on it anyway."

Just because a cross is on a state owned highway, well, I don't see that as a complete breach of the separation of church and state. Again, it is a large part of Americana and I'll bet 99% of people don't give these things a second thought. This brand of finger pointing atheism seems to me to be another attempt at creating a special minority group.

Again, point to where anyone here has a problem with crosses put up on the side of the road for people who've died.

I agree the best place for all this is at a church but I think it was last year some atheist sue group had a fit about a manger in front of a church in the middle of a downtown city and I guess since it was either too public of a view or the church only leases the property from the city that they made a big fuss.

Proof instead of speculation please.

I think atheists need to just accept that they live in a religious country with the satisfaction of knowing that religion is not nearly as in your face as it used to be. There will be a more equal balance between atheists and the religious but it won't happen overnight. It will however happen. Lastly, the best things come when you wait. Not when you force it to happen. It just creates animosity.

That's my huge gripe with progressives. They want to force feed a new world down everyone's throats instead of letting progress happen naturally.

Right, so like them uppity women and blacks and all, we should just be happy we've got what we've got and sit down and shut up, right?

Because you, as someone who has admitted to not really knowing what they are talking about, doesn't like it coming to their attention.

Shadow you do know that public land belongs to everyone, not just to the atheists. And, as I said before mkst of these monuments are payed for with privite money.

So if a community wants to put a cross or the ten commandments up at the courthouse or city hall why should you stop them from doing so. You didn't pay for it. If your like most people you don't go anywhere near the court house, unless you drive by it. Where have you been harmed by that monument.

I would stop them because it violates the separation of Church and State. Period.

That people can raise money to put their monuments in place in front of a courthouse shouldn't matter. it's still being placed on government property.

Edited by Tiggs
Edited to remove response to removed post.

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GoldenWolf

Ok, cool. So if a private individual wishes to put an altar to Odin in the courthouse, you're ok with that? And an altar to Satan, a statue of LRon Hubbard?

Nibs

What about a statue of Richard Dawkins? :lol:

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danielost

Well, many atheists in my family served and are serving. Some lost their lives. Until VERY recently, they couldn't have a symbol that represented THEM.

Most atheists don't want someone else's belief system to dictate what is right and wrong and how they should live. That's it. Just like in religion, there are always those who take it too far.

Don't start on the "fought and died" stuff. Atheists, pagans, muslims, christians, hindus, etc. fought and died for our rights.

Nibs

You already live in aer country. The laws of this one is based on the ten commandments. Always will be.

Why don't find a real problem, such as the irs, nsa, benguizy scandels to fight against.

You want to steal others rights such as freedom of religion, freedom of speach.

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danielost

Ok, cool. So if a private individual wishes to put an altar to Odin in the courthouse, you're ok with that? And an altar to Satan, a statue of LRon Hubbard?

Nibs

As long as they follow local law who cares. I probable would walk by it and not see it, like I do with crosses. I am a mormon, mormons don't use crosses or any other holy symbols.

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