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danielost

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God being all knowing, he would have known in advance if they would obey or not.. So the story itself is senseless, but then again, it is just a man made tale, that's how I see it..

Rules are made to be broken.

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Danny, how did you know I made it to 8th grade?

(Are you having a difficult day? Your venom is not usually this random, nor so self-directed, as to inject it into an agreeable post!)

No, smith made it to the 8th grade.

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Which is why one of my fellow Druids calls it a death cult. I call it the guilt cult, myself. The whole idea of human sacrifice kind of creeps out my hippie soul. He just got in the Roman empires way like countless other people. Killing people was their sport, like football..

Mormons don't focus on the death, but the resuraction. Ie life. Thus we don't use the cross.

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God tells you not to sin, but do you sin anyway? I think you and I are getting punished for our own sins, which are many.

Maybe you do, in the parameters of your religion, but I don't. Although I am quite positive that you will think I do.

No insult intended towards you or any other believers (of whatever faith), but it seems to me that a religion telling it's followers that they are "sinners" is a great way to keep people enslaved to a particular dogma.

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Mormons don't focus on the death, but the resuraction. Ie life. Thus we don't use the cross.

That's a bit arrogant; I think most religions are mainly life-oriented. The cross is a morbid symbol, I agree, but hardly tells the entire tale.
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Most Christians don't know that the character of God has evolved over time.

And to my interpretation Adam and Eve seemes to be royally duped. They say it was a rebellion against God. I simply can't see that.

That seems to happen a lot to the big guy; rebellion. Adam & Eve, Lucifer, 1/3 of the angels.....

For a supposedly omniscient deity, he cannot seem to avoid disharmony, discord and strife.

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The catholics and their break aways focus on the death of christ. He died for our sins. This is why they use(worship) the cross. That doesn't mean their not into life, it is just second place to the death.

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The catholics and their break aways focus on the death of christ. He died for our sins. This is why they use(worship) the cross. That doesn't mean their not into life, it is just second place to the death.

Boldface mine. What you say is without sense except in a primitive magic way. I have made this point several times and you nor any other Christian has even tried to explain.
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I believe there are a lot of gods. Maybe cas many as the stars or galaxies. But, for earth there is only one.

If you believe that your god created everything, then your statement is false.

Also, if you truly believe that there are gods for every star, then any belief in ANY god is just as valid as your belief in your god.

But believe what thou will, no concern of mine.

Note to Self: Stop trying to pierce the illogical basis of religious belief in others. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

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The catholics and their break aways focus on the death of christ. He died for our sins.

The break aways are officially known as protestants. And they call it salvation....

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I dunno; all "belief" is illogical in the sense that we can't prove it. Opinions are interesting and that one does not immediately change beliefs is not surprising. I don't think it is worthwhile to even try. Just plant your little seeds of doubt here and there.

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Speaking of unique theological points of view, whence cometh this, pray tell? I can only swallow one misstep at a time: "He was created sin?" ???

II Corinthians 5: 21 "For He hath made Him (Jesus), who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." "To be sin for us..." in not a action, it is a state of being - - - flesh. And that is the only thing that died, His physical flesh.

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The part that I don't get is that I am being punished for something I had nothing to do with. I know damn well if I had just been told by God himself not to do something there would be no way whatsoever I would go anywhere near it.

We are only judged on our own actions, not the actions of others, certainly not the actions of Adam and Eve. We are born innocent like all new born babies, unless you can show me babies who have lied, stolen, raped, murdered and committed adultery etc. However we are born with a sinful nature and one day we will eat of the forbidden fruit, not once but many times and it will be our choice, the same as Adam and Eve made their choice, and that is what we will be judged on.

Edited by 0lly
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If he created us, then he's responsible.

And if you were given the keys to the bank of England and you stole all the gold bullion, you wouldn't be guilty of theft?

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God being all knowing, he would have known in advance if they would obey or not.. So the story itself is senseless, but then again, it is just a man made tale, that's how I see it..

And he made a way of escape.

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Boldface mine. What you say is without sense except in a primitive magic way. I have made this point several times and you nor any other Christian has even tried to explain.

This is the samething as a parent taking the blame for their child's murdering someone. The parent is saying thy love their child so much they will die for the child. Assuming the parent thinks his/her child is worthy of the sacrifice. Christ will make the same or has for us his brothers and sisters. Christ's sacrifice is giving up his place at gods table in heaven. The holy ghost gave up having a body so he/she could guide us through life. There are three levels in heaven. Christ will rule in the second level. The holy ghost will rule in the third level. Some of those who make it to the first level will become gods. This is all mormon belief.

The break aways are officially known as protestants. And they call it salvation....

Thanks I was having spelling problems.

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If you believe that your god created everything, then your statement is false.

Also, if you truly believe that there are gods for every star, then any belief in ANY god is just as valid as your belief in your god.

But believe what thou will, no concern of mine.

Note to Self: Stop trying to pierce the illogical basis of religious belief in others. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Mormons believe that christ and all of us created the earth, through the power given to christ by god. There is only one god for earth so it wouldn't do you any good to worship one of the others. This is god's house and just like your house, he rules here.

Mormon belief doesn't talk about there being a god for every star that is just my thinking.

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If you believe that your god created everything, then your statement is false.

Also, if you truly believe that there are gods for every star, then any belief in ANY god is just as valid as your belief in your god.

But believe what thou will, no concern of mine.

Note to Self: Stop trying to pierce the illogical basis of religious belief in others. It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it wastes your time and annoys the pig.

Mormons believe that christ and all of us created the earth, through the power given to christ by god. There is only one god for earth so it wouldn't do you any good to worship one of the others. This is god's house and just like your house, he rules here.

Mormon belief doesn't talk about there being a god for every star that is just my thinking.

We are only judged on our own actions, not the actions of others, certainly not the actions of Adam and Eve. We are born innocent like all new born babies, unless you can show me babies who have lied, stolen, raped, murdered and committed adultery etc. However we are born with a sinful nature and one day we will eat of the forbidden fruit, not once but many times and it will be our choice, the same as Adam and Eve made their choice, and that is what we will be judged on.

christ said we are born into sin. Then there is his statement of as bad tree not being able to produce good fruit. But he fixed the tree so now we can be good fruit.
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II Corinthians 5: 21 "For He hath made Him (Jesus), who knew no sin, to be sin for us, that we might be made the righteousness of God in Him." "To be sin for us..." in not a action, it is a state of being - - - flesh. And that is the only thing that died, His physical flesh.

"Adam was created naked. He was created sin. . ." from your post yesterday, around 1:55 pm. There, "he" refers to Adam. That's what I questioned.

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Maybe you do, in the parameters of your religion, but I don't. Although I am quite positive that you will think I do.

No insult intended towards you or any other believers (of whatever faith), but it seems to me that a religion telling it's followers that they are "sinners" is a great way to keep people enslaved to a particular dogma.

Sins are those things we do that we know could cause us or someone else harm in some way, yet we choose to do it anyway. Some of us don't want to admit it, but none of us are perfect. We all sin in some way. Telling lies hurt people, and I know that all of us have done that more times than we can count. Bearing false witness, or gossiping about other people hurts the person we are talking about, yet we are sure all guilty of doing that too at some point in our lives. Trying to make ourselves look like somebody of worth, so we sometimes point out the flaws of others, and we might not even realize what we are doing when we do it. Self preservation causes us to commit many sins over out life time, and we do it so easy because we were born with the ability to think of ways to avoid some of the consequences that might come from our bad choices. We are a bunch of sinners, all of us.

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Sorry Shalom, but the first 'commandment' that I adhere to is: Do No Harm. It is the creed I live by.

And this sentence:

Self preservation causes us to commit many sins over out life time, and we do it so easy because we were born with the ability to think of ways to avoid some of the consequences that might come from our bad choices.

Is not accurate. Especially the first part. I do not know what life experiences you have had that would lead you to believe this, but that is your burden, not mine. As to the second part of that statement, I strive to accept ALL consequences of my actions. Bearing responsibility for one's own choices is what makes us better as humans. Sadly though, I am in agreement about the majority of humanity's ability to shift the blame for one's own circumstances.

Again, not to cause offense, but merely stating my own personal belief here, the concept of one sacrificial victim (Jesus) dying for "our sins" is nothing (to my way of thinking) but a primitive superstitious form of shifting blame & responsibility for our own individual life choices.

Explain to me please, how nailing a man to a tree is any different from throwing a virgin into a volcano or ripping the beating heart out of a chosen sacrifice? Of course the answer is that the holy book is true, all others are false, and that makes it OK.

To each their own.

Edited by JMPD1
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Not bad for an 8th grader

Oh, that 8th-grader!!!

Edited by szentgyorgy
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Yeah, remember him? He was the guy in the back row who never paid attention...........

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Sorry Shalom, but the first 'commandment' that I adhere to is: Do No Harm. It is the creed I live by.

And this sentence:

Is not accurate. Especially the first part. I do not know what life experiences you have had that would lead you to believe this, but that is your burden, not mine. As to the second part of that statement, I strive to accept ALL consequences of my actions. Bearing responsibility for one's own choices is what makes us better as humans. Sadly though, I am in agreement about the majority of humanity's ability to shift the blame for one's own circumstances.

Again, not to cause offense, but merely stating my own personal belief here, the concept of one sacrificial victim (Jesus) dying for "our sins" is nothing (to my way of thinking) but a primitive superstitious form of shifting blame & responsibility for our own individual life choices.

Explain to me please, how nailing a man to a tree is any different from throwing a virgin into a volcano or ripping the beating heart out of a chosen sacrifice? Of course the answer is that the holy book is true, all others are false, and that makes it OK.

To each their own.

JMPD1, the part of your post I don't get is: How is referring to negative choices, accepting their consequences and bearing responsibility to improve oneself as a human being (I think that's your position) substantially different from the Christian (and other faiths') belief that people sin and--through the power of forgiveness (human and divine) can improve relationships and functioning as human beings?

I don't perceive sin/negative choices, and improvement as a human being/repentance and newness of life, as all that different--at least not mutually exclusive.

Maybe it's a semantic issue, as so many discussions between theists/non-theists or Christians/non-Christians seem to devolve into. I don't know.

Edited by szentgyorgy
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Szen, I think the difference is that theists of the Christian flavor seem to believe that we are all sinners, and that we CANNOT improve ourselves, and only by accepting their saviour can we become whole.

By accepting responsibility for our own actions, both positive and negative, and learning from them can we hope to improve ourselves. And before we can improve, we must accept that we make the choices that affect us.

Example: In the US, there is an epidemic of overweight, unhealthy people who cram all sorts of unhealthy 'food' into their gullets because its cheap, easily available, convenient, and (sadly) tastes good. These folk balloon up to gigantic proportions, have failing health and a myriad of medical ailments. And what do they do? Do they say "Hey, I need to stop this and eat healthier!"

No, they don't. They blame the sellers and manufacturers of said products, whining and crying that 'they didn't know, boo-hoo' and accept no responsibility for their actions. As if McDonalds held a gun to their heads and forced them to eat.

To me, theists do the same: they blame some intrinsic 'flaw' that they claim is inherent in all humans, and the alleged actions of some primal 'evil being' as the root of their own misery, and profess the inability to overcome this 'flaw' without outside intervention of their deity or that deity's chosen representative.

If that mindset works for them, and helps them to become better humans, then Hallelujah! God be praised and pass the collection plate! For me though, I'll pass thanks.

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