two choices

[DeWitz]

Szen, I think the difference is that theists of the Christian flavor seem to believe that we are all sinners, and that we CANNOT improve ourselves, and only by accepting their saviour can we become whole.

By accepting responsibility for our own actions, both positive and negative, and learning from them can we hope to improve ourselves. And before we can improve, we must accept that we make the choices that affect us.

Example: In the US, there is an epidemic of overweight, unhealthy people who cram all sorts of unhealthy 'food' into their gullets because its cheap, easily available, convenient, and (sadly) tastes good. These folk balloon up to gigantic proportions, have failing health and a myriad of medical ailments. And what do they do? Do they say "Hey, I need to stop this and eat healthier!"

No, they don't. They blame the sellers and manufacturers of said products, whining and crying that 'they didn't know, boo-hoo' and accept no responsibility for their actions. As if McDonalds held a gun to their heads and forced them to eat.

To me, theists do the same: they blame some intrinsic 'flaw' that they claim is inherent in all humans, and the alleged actions of some primal 'evil being' as the root of their own misery, and profess the inability to overcome this 'flaw' without outside intervention of their deity or that deity's chosen representative.

If that mindset works for them, and helps them to become better humans, then Hallelujah! God be praised and pass the collection plate! For me though, I'll pass thanks.

But not pass the plate. . .

This helps somewhat, except the part I think is misunderstood between us (Christians/non-Christians) is that "sin" isn't used in some sort of cosmic blame-catch-and-release-game, at least not in my experience and education. "Sin" is a descriptor for a condition, a state of existence if not ontology, in which even the best of intentions often causes some harm. It's not an excuse to do harm. Perhaps your observations are different, but that's what I've seen, read and learned. There are many ways to capture the predictability/inevitability of sin and, therefore, the need for forgiveness and newness of life (moving on with improvement of life); but I've not perceived nor experienced the ol' Flip Wilson/Geraldine schtick "The Devil made me do it!" in anything but the rarest, crassest most cynical embodiments.

Even people whose theology I don't respect much, Swaggart, Falwell, Bakker, Schuller (a bona fide Presbyterian, no less!), etc., don't say "I sinned because I'm sinful and that's that, I have no responsibility." Now, their responsibility may pick up exactly where their embarrassment peaks and the collection plates stop filling, but that's another matter.

Thanks for the reply.

[Jodie.Lynne]

You're welcome.

And while you may not have heard the words "The devil made me do it", it is by the actions of (some) of those who profess to be "Christian" that I refer to. Not familiar with the intimate details of other faiths, I was raised in the Roman Catholic brand, and witnessed the act of confession. Most of those that I saw in the pews on Sunday were, to put it mildly, hypocrites. Dressed in their Sunday best, they were the same ones out carousing on a Saturday night and the first ones to A - point out the 'sins' of others, and B - jump into the confessional to 'clear away their debts' so they could go out & do it again.

Granted, these action were not taken by ALL the people, but a goodly number of them. And while there were those who appeared to live within their faith, they were (in my mind) the minority. I won't even begin to discuss the tele-evangelists, who are the absolute worst snake-oil salesmen I've ever seen.

To me, if you "sin" and repent of it and are then forgiven, you DON'T go out and do it again. You learn from your error and move on.

Edited to add: I disagree with the concept that 'sin' is a condition we are born into, or cannot escape from. In my experience "sin" is a mutable concept, varying with culture, condition, and circumstance. But that may be the topic for another thread.

Edited August 11, 2013 by JMPD1

[Shalom]

Sorry Shalom, but the first 'commandment' that I adhere to is: Do No Harm. It is the creed I live by.

And this sentence:

Is not accurate. Especially the first part. I do not know what life experiences you have had that would lead you to believe this, but that is your burden, not mine. As to the second part of that statement, I strive to accept ALL consequences of my actions. Bearing responsibility for one's own choices is what makes us better as humans. Sadly though, I am in agreement about the majority of humanity's ability to shift the blame for one's own circumstances.

I can believe that you may be a better person than I am, but the fact that you can't see that you are a sinner doesn't impress me. Perhaps your life is good enough that you don't have to make tough choices that would require sin that you could recognize, but let the world economy collapse and see what you are really capable of. Not recognizing your sin doesn't mean it isn't there. We are all sinners, and we do need a Savior to save us from the consequences of our sin.

Again, not to cause offense, but merely stating my own personal belief here, the concept of one sacrificial victim (Jesus) dying for "our sins" is nothing (to my way of thinking) but a primitive superstitious form of shifting blame & responsibility for our own individual life choices.

Explain to me please, how nailing a man to a tree is any different from throwing a virgin into a volcano or ripping the beating heart out of a chosen sacrifice? Of course the answer is that the holy book is true, all others are false, and that makes it OK.

To each their own.

What I believe may be different than anything you have heard from other Christians. I don't really believe that Jesus is our sacrifice in the way that people offer sacrifices. Since I believe that Jesus is God, no person could possibly offer him up as a sacrifice. Jesus chose to allow himself face the feeling of rejection, shame, suffering and even the death of the cross.

What God did for us can not be compared to what primitive and modern day people do when they offer up living sacrifices to appease the gods. God chose to share in the suffering mankind has experienced in this world. Because God created a way for himself to experience suffering, he understands our suffering and won't change his mind about saving us from ourselves. Our actions are destroying us, and if we were to live for eternity our sins would create horrors greater than anything ever put into any horror movie.

Salvation has great meaning, but like you can't see your sin, most people don't really see the true meaning of what Christ has done for us.

[Jodie.Lynne]

You believe what you wish Shalom.

For me, I believe that the human race is better than that.

May your faith in your god bring you comfort and peace.

[Shalom]

You believe what you wish Shalom.

For me, I believe that the human race is better than that.

May your faith in your god bring you comfort and peace.

Thank you for the kind attitude, however knowing the things I'm sure you know about history, how can you think the human race is better than committing evil even worse than the evil they have already committed? Murder, rape, and degrading people in the most horrible ways are evil, and they are a very real part of what goes on ever day in this world.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Because, my friend, we are a young race, barely out of diapers in a cosmic sense, and children make mistakes. But, like children, we also learn and grow. Perhaps one day, not in my lifetime but maybe in my great-great-grandchildrens', we will overcome many of our childish & selfish patterns. But not, in my opinion, by waiting for a deity to sweep everything aside and make it all better.

As to the comment about murder, rape, degrading others (and war, which you neglected to mention), what is the root cause of these crimes? Some inborn 'flaw' of humans? Or perhaps, just maybe, some of them are caused by the artificial differences we ourselves project onto others, along with self-centered egotism and childish selfishness are to blame.

When we (as a race) can accept the differences in others as well as in ourselves, then perhaps we can move forward and grow as a species.

Will there ever be an end to senseless murder, rape, hatred, bigotry, greed and envy? I believe that there will be. Someday. But if there is, it will be because humanity has matured and learned; not because 'god' made it so.

My opinion, sorry if it offends.

[Shalom]

Because, my friend, we are a young race, barely out of diapers in a cosmic sense, and children make mistakes. But, like children, we also learn and grow. Perhaps one day, not in my lifetime but maybe in my great-great-grandchildrens', we will overcome many of our childish & selfish patterns. But not, in my opinion, by waiting for a deity to sweep everything aside and make it all better.

As to the comment about murder, rape, degrading others (and war, which you neglected to mention), what is the root cause of these crimes? Some inborn 'flaw' of humans? Or perhaps, just maybe, some of them are caused by the artificial differences we ourselves project onto others, along with self-centered egotism and childish selfishness are to blame.

When we (as a race) can accept the differences in others as well as in ourselves, then perhaps we can move forward and grow as a species.

Will there ever be an end to senseless murder, rape, hatred, bigotry, greed and envy? I believe that there will be. Someday. But if there is, it will be because humanity has matured and learned; not because 'god' made it so.

My opinion, sorry if it offends.

Thank you for calling me friend, and I hope you mean that. We most certainly are not enemies in my view even though we don't agree on some issues. The things you say do not offend me, nor should they. You are just showing your faith in humanity, which is what people do when debating their many different beliefs in all religions.

I personally can't see how you can possibly think that mankind will someday get good enough to end all our evil deeds, but I can see that you seem to.

Also I agree that self-centered egotism and childish selfishness are to blame, which is the outward sign of our sin nature. Mankind aren't getting better, and the few that mass all the power in the world would never be willing to give it up. If God didn't stop it, eventually we would destroy ourselves. If God had given us eternal life before he fixes our sin problem, heaven would be a nightmare.

[danielost]

Sorry Shalom, but the first 'commandment' that I adhere to is: Do No Harm. It is the creed I live by.

And this sentence:

Is not accurate. Especially the first part. I do not know what life experiences you have had that would lead you to believe this, but that is your burden, not mine. As to the second part of that statement, I strive to accept ALL consequences of my actions. Bearing responsibility for one's own choices is what makes us better as humans. Sadly though, I am in agreement about the majority of humanity's ability to shift the blame for one's own circumstances.

Again, not to cause offense, but merely stating my own personal belief here, the concept of one sacrificial victim (Jesus) dying for "our sins" is nothing (to my way of thinking) but a primitive superstitious form of shifting blame & responsibility for our own individual life choices.

Explain to me please, how nailing a man to a tree is any different from throwing a virgin into a volcano or ripping the beating heart out of a chosen sacrifice? Of course the answer is that the holy book is true, all others are false, and that makes it OK.

To each their own.

The isrealites would tell their sins to a goat to rid them of their sins, this was before christ, thus the meaning of a scape goat.

[danielost]

Szen, I think the difference is that theists of the Christian flavor seem to believe that we are all sinners, and that we CANNOT improve ourselves, and only by accepting their saviour can we become whole.

By accepting responsibility for our own actions, both positive and negative, and learning from them can we hope to improve ourselves. And before we can improve, we must accept that we make the choices that affect us.

Example: In the US, there is an epidemic of overweight, unhealthy people who cram all sorts of unhealthy 'food' into their gullets because its cheap, easily available, convenient, and (sadly) tastes good. These folk balloon up to gigantic proportions, have failing health and a myriad of medical ailments. And what do they do? Do they say "Hey, I need to stop this and eat healthier!"

No, they don't. They blame the sellers and manufacturers of said products, whining and crying that 'they didn't know, boo-hoo' and accept no responsibility for their actions. As if McDonalds held a gun to their heads and forced them to eat.

To me, theists do the same: they blame some intrinsic 'flaw' that they claim is inherent in all humans, and the alleged actions of some primal 'evil being' as the root of their own misery, and profess the inability to overcome this 'flaw' without outside intervention of their deity or that deity's chosen representative.

If that mindset works for them, and helps them to become better humans, then Hallelujah! God be praised and pass the collection plate! For me though, I'll pass thanks.

Christ said to remove the beam(sin) in your eye, before you help someone else remove a splinter from their eye. Seems your stance is the samething.

[danielost]

Those preachers on tv ever Sunday are only there to get rich off of christian suckers. You cannot buy your way into heaven. The reasonthey pass the plate in church is to guilt you into giving them your money. Mormons do not pass the plate ever. You fill out a small form and put it into an envalope and give it to a member of the bishop's (preachers) office.

This form has the following on it tithing, to pay for church expances. Fast offerings, mormons are supposed to fast on the first Sunday ever month and donate the costs of the three meals, to help those in need. It also has a few blank lines for donations for specifice reasons.

Edited August 11, 2013 by danielost

[Beany]

Mormons believe that christ and all of us created the earth, through the power given to christ by god. There is only one god for earth so it wouldn't do you any good to worship one of the others. This is god's house and just like your house, he rules here.

Mormon belief doesn't talk about there being a god for every star that is just my thinking.

christ said we are born into sin. Then there is his statement of as bad tree not being able to produce good fruit. But he fixed the tree so now we can be good fruit.

Religion can tell me anything it wants. But as a thinking, intelligent adult it's up to me to decide whether it's accurate or true. I certainly don't believe we were born into sin. It's my belief we are born into joy, and that life is the greatest gift any of us will ever receive from God or who ever or what ever, and it should be celebrated. I think our basic premise often determines future actions & perceptions & thoughts. I chose a positive premise rather than a negative one.

[Copen]

And if you were given the keys to the bank of England and you stole all the gold bullion, you wouldn't be guilty of theft?

Yep, He programed you that way. Yet, you are guilt by virtue of being flesh, and flesh is short of the glory of God. Flesh is sinful and will have to pay by two deaths. One is spiritual and a separation from God after our physical death. Therefore, God made a way of escape. He sent His son, Jesus Christ, who was not guilty to pay for His chosen elect guilty children. He died spiritually for us.

God bless us all is my prayer.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Copen

[Jodie.Lynne]

Religion can tell me anything it wants. But as a thinking, intelligent adult it's up to me to decide whether it's accurate or true. I certainly don't believe we were born into sin. It's my belief we are born into joy, and that life is the greatest gift any of us will ever receive from God or who ever or what ever, and it should be celebrated. I think our basic premise often determines future actions & perceptions & thoughts. I chose a positive premise rather than a negative one.

Thank you for calling me friend, and I hope you mean that. We most certainly are not enemies in my view even though we don't agree on some issues. The things you say do not offend me, nor should they. You are just showing your faith in humanity, which is what people do when debating their many different beliefs in all religions.

I personally can't see how you can possibly think that mankind will someday get good enough to end all our evil deeds, but I can see that you seem to.

Also I agree that self-centered egotism and childish selfishness are to blame, which is the outward sign of our sin nature. Mankind aren't getting better, and the few that mass all the power in the world would never be willing to give it up. If God didn't stop it, eventually we would destroy ourselves. If God had given us eternal life before he fixes our sin problem, heaven would be a nightmare.

And there folks, is the difference. One message of positive affirmation, and one message of negative condemnation. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

[Shalom]

And there folks, is the difference. One message of positive affirmation, and one message of negative condemnation. I'll leave it to you to decide which is which.

I think you are sounding like one of the preachers who tell people to name it and claim it. Don't worry that reality says you can't afford a new car. Name and claim it and go out and get that car on credit. The reality is the person still couldn't afford it, and the consequences of doing something they knew was wrong will soon rise up to bit them soon enough. They close their eyes to reality, name that car as being theirs, buy the car on credit, and lose it six months later because they couldn't afford to pay for it. The world is surely in a mess with no sign of getting better, and some people don't seem to see. If telling that person that they couldn't afford to buy that car is considered negative, then you can consider me negative about some things. If saying I see the suffering around the world is negative, that call me negative. If seeing that people are getting more self-centered and uncaring, and that crime against innocent people is going up if only for the fact that there are so many more people, then by all means call me anything you wish but reality says there is no sign that people are getting better. The world is full of sinners, and denying it doesn't change a thing.

[DeWitz]

Because, my friend, we are a young race, barely out of diapers in a cosmic sense, and children make mistakes. But, like children, we also learn and grow. Perhaps one day, not in my lifetime but maybe in my great-great-grandchildrens', we will overcome many of our childish & selfish patterns. But not, in my opinion, by waiting for a deity to sweep everything aside and make it all better.

As to the comment about murder, rape, degrading others (and war, which you neglected to mention), what is the root cause of these crimes? Some inborn 'flaw' of humans? Or perhaps, just maybe, some of them are caused by the artificial differences we ourselves project onto others, along with self-centered egotism and childish selfishness are to blame.

When we (as a race) can accept the differences in others as well as in ourselves, then perhaps we can move forward and grow as a species.

Will there ever be an end to senseless murder, rape, hatred, bigotry, greed and envy? I believe that there will be. Someday. But if there is, it will be because humanity has matured and learned; not because 'god' made it so.

My opinion, sorry if it offends.

Perhaps I'm simplifying, or just minimizing, but it seems to me that humanity's maturation/learning process is what some Christians call spiritual growth/salvation/sanctification/growth in grace (and many other terms). I see more similarities in this interchange than differences. This used to be (even a generation ago, perhaps) a classic debate between "the perfectibility of man/humanity" (enlightenment scientism/humanism) and "the utter depravity of man/humanity" (traditional Christianity/spirituality).

This has been a more civilized version of that dialogue as I've seen in awhile.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Where have I said to close one's eyes to suffering? When have I denied that we are imperfect? What is the basis for your reasoning?

The difference between you and I is that I see the world and its condition as an opportunity to help, to learn, and to correct those conditions, whereas you see evidence of the unworthiness of human existence. You say that you see the human race getting worse instead of better, so be it. What, exactly are you doing about it?

Who was it that said: "Be the change you wish to see"

To my way of thinking, you Shalom, and all those that await the coming of god to clean up our mess are pessimists; waiting for the end ( or hoping for it) rather than rolling up your sleeves and DOING something about it. And that is fine. For you and those that think like you. Not so much for me though, so you will excuse me if I don't fall to my knees awaiting armageddon. I'll be too busy working to help those who need it.

[Frank Merton]

The isrealites would tell their sins to a goat to rid them of their sins, this was before christ, thus the meaning of a scape goat.

Same magic idea as Jesus on the Cross. Such sacrifices are common in primitive religion, and it's too bad Christianity hasn't outgrown it. Judaism and Islam both have, and the Asian religions around today never had it.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Perhaps I'm simplifying, or just minimizing, but it seems to me that humanity's maturation/learning process is what some Christians call spiritual growth/salvation/sanctification/growth in grace (and many other terms). I see more similarities in this interchange than differences. This used to be (even a generation ago, perhaps) a classic debate between "the perfectibility of man/humanity" (enlightenment scientism/humanism) and "the utter depravity of man/humanity" (traditional Christianity/spirituality).

This has been a more civilized version of that dialogue as I've seen in awhile.

Perhaps you are correct Szen. In other words, the theists believe in help from 'outside', while others believe that we have the power to change from within.

That, I think, is the crux of the problem. Those who believe we are flawed & can only be "saved" by deity; and those who believe we are flawed but can save ourselves.

To each their own.

[Beany]

I think you are sounding like one of the preachers who tell people to name it and claim it. Don't worry that reality says you can't afford a new car. Name and claim it and go out and get that car on credit. The reality is the person still couldn't afford it, and the consequences of doing something they knew was wrong will soon rise up to bit them soon enough. They close their eyes to reality, name that car as being theirs, buy the car on credit, and lose it six months later because they couldn't afford to pay for it. The world is surely in a mess with no sign of getting better, and some people don't seem to see. If telling that person that they couldn't afford to buy that car is considered negative, then you can consider me negative about some things. If saying I see the suffering around the world is negative, that call me negative. If seeing that people are getting more self-centered and uncaring, and that crime against innocent people is going up if only for the fact that there are so many more people, then by all means call me anything you wish but reality says there is no sign that people are getting better. The world is full of sinners, and denying it doesn't change a thing.

Certainly suffering is a negative, but suffering isn't the only thing life is about. And while there are plenty of people who act with selfishness, who violate social norms & civil/criminal laws, those people are a minority. "A world full of sinner"? What about all the wonderful organizations & people that work to make the world a better place? Doctors Without Borders, Engineers Without Borders, Red Cross, food kitchens & homeless shelters run by volunteers? People who work with environmental organizations? Or child advocates? The Innocence Project? The list goes on and on. I'm not denying bad people don't exist, just trying to introduce some balance into the perspective. I confess I'm puzzled why all those people & organizations who work hard to bring about positive change don't get as much recognition as the "sinners."

[Beany]

Perhaps you are correct Szen. In other words, the theists believe in help from 'outside', while others believe that we have the power to change from within.

That, I think, is the crux of the problem. Those who believe we are flawed & can only be "saved" by deity; and those who believe we are flawed but can save ourselves.

To each their own.

I find that a beautiful thought, that we can save ourselves, that the sacred bestowed us with the ability to do just that, and to receive the gifts that go along with it. And I believe that the sacred encourages this kind of behavior. Perhaps this is a reason why "sin" exists, so that we can learn lessons about personal responsibility & consequences and find out own way out of the wilderness.

[SpiritWriter]

[Frank Merton]

Yes, to live is to suffer. We have aches and pains, itch and burn, tolerate bad smells and uncomfortable airline seats, put up with yappy dogs and mothers-in-law. We also age and have that little kernel of knowledge that says, "Some day I die."

I suppose religions sometimes help, as does music and flying first class.

The Buddha said suffering derives from three sources, and the better we deal with these sources, the less we will suffer (note -- this is not sold as a way to be "happy".) These are desires (wanting things we either shouldn't want or are out of our reach), revulsions (letting things "get to" us), and delusions (fooling ourselves into thinking the world is something other than what it really is).

[Shalom]

Where have I said to close one's eyes to suffering? When have I denied that we are imperfect? What is the basis for your reasoning?

The difference between you and I is that I see the world and its condition as an opportunity to help, to learn, and to correct those conditions, whereas you see evidence of the unworthiness of human existence. You say that you see the human race getting worse instead of better, so be it. What, exactly are you doing about it?

Who was it that said: "Be the change you wish to see"

To my way of thinking, you Shalom, and all those that await the coming of god to clean up our mess are pessimists; waiting for the end ( or hoping for it) rather than rolling up your sleeves and DOING something about it. And that is fine. For you and those that think like you. Not so much for me though, so you will excuse me if I don't fall to my knees awaiting armageddon. I'll be too busy working to help those who need it.

I probably don't do as much as a person like you to change the world for the better, but I will tell you I've given my share this year. It doesn't bother me to reach out to those I can help, and I do it on a regular bases. What are you doing by the way that is making such a huge impact for the good in this world? Someone like you must be building hospitals or something big like that.

Actually I'm one of those people who believe in the reality of history and don't rewrite it to make it suit my politics. This is a hard world and the scope of the evil in it is greater than most people seem to be capable of seeing. Look around the world today, and take off any rose colored glasses that you might want to wear, and realize how huge the problem really is. The good you and I do are less than a drop of water in an ocean of need. Mankind can't fix it. I guess if a person isn't going to believe in God they do need something to believe in, or reality might drive them crazy.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Whatever friend. Agree to disagree and I'm done here. Have a good life.

[Frank Merton]

Reminds me of the man on the beach throwing stranded starfish back into the water. When asked why he bothers since there are thousands and thousands of them and their deaths don't matter, he replies that it matters to the ones he throws back.