two choices

[Shalom]

Reminds me of the man on the beach throwing stranded starfish back into the water. When asked why he bothers since there are thousands and thousands of them and their deaths don't matter, he replies that it matters to the ones he throws back.

Wouldn't it be nice if someone could come up with a solution that would save all the starfish. I love the solution that God offers me.

[Frank Merton]

Does God save the starfish?

[Shalom]

Whatever friend. Agree to disagree and I'm done here. Have a good life.

Sometime the only answer is to agree to disagree. Just one thing though, what do you mean when you call me friend?

Does God save the starfish?

All God's creation will be saved.

[Frank Merton]

Even all the bacteria and viruses and so on that can't survive without causing disease?

[Shalom]

Even all the bacteria and viruses and so on that can't survive without causing disease?

Well Frank you asked a question that I will just have to use my tiny little brain to answer, but God has the final answer. There is coming a day when the lion will lay down with the lamb and he won't harm him. A child will play at the den of a serpent and won't be harmed. There will be no suffering or death, so if God chooses to allow viruses and bacteria to exist for some reason, we won't have to fear, because they won't harm mankind ever again. I don't know what is going to happen to bacteria and viruses, but it will be just fine if we use them to make some really great health drink or something. Living forever we might need a lot different food choices to keep us happy.

[Frank Merton]

Yes of course, I'm being pedantic. I also think the lion and lamb bit must be taken figuratively, since a lion that didn't eat meat would not really be a lion.

There is also a difference between continuance of the species and of the individual. The whole thing is merely a view of paradise, a place without stress. In fact I think it would be a tiresome place although no doubt the good Lord would find things for us to do.

[Jodie.Lynne]

Just one thing though, what do you mean when you call me friend?

What should I call you? Enemy? You have your worldview, I have mine. I endeavor to keep all interactions civil, and when I see the other party becoming uncivil, then I withdraw. Not my job to change your opinions or beliefs.

[Shalom]

Yes of course, I'm being pedantic. I also think the lion and lamb bit must be taken figuratively, since a lion that didn't eat meat would not really be a lion.

Ebay

There is also a difference between continuance of the species and of the individual. The whole thing is merely a view of paradise, a place without stress. In fact I think it would be a tiresome place although no doubt the good Lord would find things for us to do.

I like you Frank, but I disagree with you on this. Since God created a lion he can certainly create lions that don't eat meat. It wouldn't bother me to see a lion munching on an apple or eating a bunch of greens.

My view of heaven is of us being able to use the whole universe to do things to keep us very busy. God created it all for a reason, and we live on a grain of sand when compared to the universe. We won't be bored, and not needing sleep we will have plenty of time to get things done.

[Shalom]

What should I call you? Enemy? You have your worldview, I have mine. I endeavor to keep all interactions civil, and when I see the other party becoming uncivil, then I withdraw. Not my job to change your opinions or beliefs.

I apologize if you thought I was getting uncivil, because I sure didn't mean to. I asked what you meant by calling me friend because I have had people do that when they were thinking something different but wanting to be politically correct. However I love to be called friend when the person really means it.

[Jodie.Lynne]

I do not say what I do not mean. I try to be extremely careful about what I say, or write, because once unleashed, you cannot un-say them, nor can the recipient un-hear them regardless of apologies tendered.

I have taken no offense, trusting that no offense was intended. That being said, I cannot help but think that your last few responses to me have been somewhat aggressive in tone whether intentional or merely the result of rising passion regarding the subject at hand.

Not wishing to cause disharmony or ill-will, I am withdrawing from this discussion before emotions become unchecked.

[Shalom]

I do not say what I do not mean. I try to be extremely careful about what I say, or write, because once unleashed, you cannot un-say them, nor can the recipient un-hear them regardless of apologies tendered.

I have taken no offense, trusting that no offense was intended. That being said, I cannot help but think that your last few responses to me have been somewhat aggressive in tone whether intentional or merely the result of rising passion regarding the subject at hand.

Not wishing to cause disharmony or ill-will, I am withdrawing from this discussion before emotions become unchecked.

Thank you for your honesty, and I do understand how you might have felt that I was getting aggressive in my tone, but I really didn't mean it that way. When a person like me starts talking about something he is totally convinced of, they do sound like aggressive know it all sometimes. I don't want to do that, but the sinner I am I do it without even thinking about it. If you should decide that you would really like to be my friend, you will need to trust me and accept me as I am. You are so right when you say once said hurtful things can't be taken back, however real friends are somehow able to overlook some things and love me anyway. It takes a while but once you really know me, you just know that I don't intentionally hurt people with my words.

[DeWitz]

I like you Frank, but I disagree with you on this. Since God created a lion he can certainly create lions that don't eat meat. It wouldn't bother me to see a lion munching on an apple or eating a bunch of greens.

My view of heaven is of us being able to use the whole universe to do things to keep us very busy. God created it all for a reason, and we live on a grain of sand when compared to the universe. We won't be bored, and not needing sleep we will have plenty of time to get things done.

The scriptures are full of allusions to the transformation of creation--the "lion lying down with the lamb" (Isaiah) being just one of them. The Christian hope is that all creation will be restored/transformed to a state of peace/equilibrium/harmony, including symbiotic organisms which now rely on decay or parasitical relationships for survival. It's the Edenic vision knitting together the original intent of creation with a future transformation yet to come. It's the Alpha and the Omega. No Christian I know of purports that this is coherent within common scientific categories of description, analysis, experimentation or expectation, and its interpretation varies within the members of the Christian family.

[danielost]

I think you are sounding like one of the preachers who tell people to name it and claim it. Don't worry that reality says you can't afford a new car. Name and claim it and go out and get that car on credit. The reality is the person still couldn't afford it, and the consequences of doing something they knew was wrong will soon rise up to bit them soon enough. They close their eyes to reality, name that car as being theirs, buy the car on credit, and lose it six months later because they couldn't afford to pay for it. The world is surely in a mess with no sign of getting better, and some people don't seem to see. If telling that person that they couldn't afford to buy that car is considered negative, then you can consider me negative about some things. If saying I see the suffering around the world is negative, that call me negative. If seeing that people are getting more self-centered and uncaring, and that crime against innocent people is going up if only for the fact that there are so many more people, then by all means call me anything you wish but reality says there is no sign that people are getting better. The world is full of sinners, and denying it doesn't change a thing.

That is what caused the housing bubble. With government forcing banks to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back.

[danielost]

I think you are sounding like one of the preachers who tell people to name it and claim it. Don't worry that reality says you can't afford a new car. Name and claim it and go out and get that car on credit. The reality is the person still couldn't afford it, and the consequences of doing something they knew was wrong will soon rise up to bit them soon enough. They close their eyes to reality, name that car as being theirs, buy the car on credit, and lose it six months later because they couldn't afford to pay for it. The world is surely in a mess with no sign of getting better, and some people don't seem to see. If telling that person that they couldn't afford to buy that car is considered negative, then you can consider me negative about some things. If saying I see the suffering around the world is negative, that call me negative. If seeing that people are getting more self-centered and uncaring, and that crime against innocent people is going up if only for the fact that there are so many more people, then by all means call me anything you wish but reality says there is no sign that people are getting better. The world is full of sinners, and denying it doesn't change a thing.

That is what caused the housing bubble. With government forcing banks to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back.

[Beany]

That is what caused the housing bubble. With government forcing banks to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back.

Well, no, the government didn't force the banks to lend. The banks did it because they made millions, maybe billions doing it, from the loan officers and right up the line.

[Beany]

I probably don't do as much as a person like you to change the world for the better, but I will tell you I've given my share this year. It doesn't bother me to reach out to those I can help, and I do it on a regular bases. What are you doing by the way that is making such a huge impact for the good in this world? Someone like you must be building hospitals or something big like that.

Actually I'm one of those people who believe in the reality of history and don't rewrite it to make it suit my politics. This is a hard world and the scope of the evil in it is greater than most people seem to be capable of seeing. Look around the world today, and take off any rose colored glasses that you might want to wear, and realize how huge the problem really is. The good you and I do are less than a drop of water in an ocean of need. Mankind can't fix it. I guess if a person isn't going to believe in God they do need something to believe in, or reality might drive them crazy.

Well, historically, Christians are no longer being slaughtered because they were Protestant or Catholic. Bubonic plague has pretty much disappeared, women are no longer being burned at the stake and we have the right to vote & own property, instead of being property ourselves. Children are no longer working in deadly factories 10-12 hours a day, at least not in most countries. In the US the elderly have a regular income, social security, along with other social welfare programs, so they don't have to starve. Many more people have access to medical care, and life-saving procedures, and don't forget penicillin & vaccines, along with access to clean water, which have saved millions of lives. Thanks to abolitionists, government-sanctioned slavery has all but disappeared. And education is almost universal. All of these things were accomplished by "sinning" & "evil" human beings, who have made the world a better place than it was. It's not perfect, or "fixed", but it is better. And a whole lotta drops of water create something immense and powerful we call oceans.

I have believed for a while that the luxury of sitting on the fence is over; either we stand for good or we don't, there's no time or room for the middle ground anymore. Ann everyone has chosen, either consciously or unconsciously, or is it unconsciencessly? We see the problems, we're just not going to stand by and do nothing so that it can prevail unchallenged. No throwing up the hands or throwing in the towel, no proclamations of helplessness, no sitting on the sidelines, just wading in, rolling up our sleeves, and doing whatever it is we can figure out to do that makes our communities a little bit better.

Edited August 11, 2013 by Beany

[Shalom]

That is what caused the housing bubble. With government forcing banks to loan money to people who couldn't pay it back.

I agree with you that the housing bubble happened because a lot of people chose to ignore the reality of what so many signs told us was about to happen. People were buying houses that they couldn't afford, and they refused to believe that a collapse could happen. Name it and claim it, because they thought they deserved the best. Reality hurts sometimes, so why be negative by considering all the bad things that could happen. Let the devil have tomorrow, cause tomorrow may not come at all. I would rather be real and recognize the reality of the many things that can go wrong and live accordingly.

[Beckys_Mom]

We are only judged on our own actions, not the actions of others, certainly not the actions of Adam and Eve. We are born innocent like all new born babies, unless you can show me babies who have lied, stolen, raped, murdered and committed adultery etc. However we are born with a sinful nature and one day we will eat of the forbidden fruit, not once but many times and it will be our choice, the same as Adam and Eve made their choice, and that is what we will be judged on.

What do you think original sin is about?

[Shalom]

Well, historically, Christians are no longer being slaughtered because they were Protestant or Catholic. Bubonic plague has pretty much disappeared, women are no longer being burned at the stake and we have the right to vote & own property, instead of being property ourselves. Children are no longer working in deadly factories 10-12 hours a day, at least not in most countries. In the US the elderly have a regular income, social security, along with other social welfare programs, so they don't have to starve. Many more people have access to medical care, and life-saving procedures, and don't forget penicillin & vaccines, along with access to clean water, which have saved millions of lives. Thanks to abolitionists, government-sanctioned slavery has all but disappeared. And education is almost universal. All of these things were accomplished by "sinning" & "evil" human beings, who have made the world a better place than it was. It's not perfect, or "fixed", but it is better. And a whole lotta drops of water create something immense and powerful we call oceans.

I have believed for a while that the luxury of sitting on the fence is over; either we stand for good or we don't, there's no time or room for the middle ground anymore. Ann everyone has chosen, either consciously or unconsciously, or is it unconsciencessly? We see the problems, we're just not going to stand by and do nothing so that it can prevail unchallenged. No throwing up the hands or throwing in the towel, no proclamations of helplessness, no sitting on the sidelines, just wading in, rolling up our sleeves, and doing whatever it is we can figure out to do that makes our communities a little bit better.

I agree with you that we all should be out there trying to make the world a better place. However the vast scope of the problem is much larger than you seem to realize. The world most certainly isn't a better place, if you are one of the people suffering for the many things that sin has caused. Children born into a world that will be nothing but hell for as long as they live. Rape, murder, and every violent thing you can think of is going on somewhere in this world as I am writing this. This world is in a mess, and mankind is helpless to stop it. The problem is way to large and the evil men and women involved are way to many for it to be possible. It is like the world debt, seems no one realizes just how huge it is.

[Shalom]

What do you think original sin is about?

I'm sitting here with my family watching a movie and responding to some of the post that interest me. You didn't address this to me but I'll give my opinion if you don't mind. These questions are serious and should have my full attention, but I'm trying to do two things at one time, and I hope my answer will make sense.

The story about Adam and Eve tells me that the problem all started by them not obeying God. Actually it is more than just not obeying, they took what he knew didn't belong to them. They had everything they should have wanted, but greed caused them to take that one other thing that was forbidden to them.

Their sin is pretty clear, but how sin was passed down to us may not be so clear. Their sin has caused untold misery as a result of the consequences that came after. Every generation that has followed has been effected in one way or other by the choices made by their parents. Bad choices can bring horrible consequences that will harm many generations of people. We have all been born with the ability to choose for ourselves what we will do, and we will answer for our own choices.

[danielost]

I agree with you that the housing bubble happened because a lot of people chose to ignore the reality of what so many signs told us was about to happen. People were buying houses that they couldn't afford, and they refused to believe that a collapse could happen. Name it and claim it, because they thought they deserved the best. Reality hurts sometimes, so why be negative by considering all the bad things that could happen. Let the devil have tomorrow, cause tomorrow may not come at all. I would rather be real and recognize the reality of the many things that can go wrong and live accordingly.

My prediction is the stock market will fail by the end of the year. It is only beng propped up by government.

[danielost]

Shalom. The problem is as the title I gave this title. Adam and eve had two choices, knowledge or life. But, I think ever animal had that choice not just the humans. One type at a time had to make a choice, until one choose knowledge. So the animals are reborn for ever. Where as adam and eve choose knowledge, giving us sin. Due to their choice we are born in sin, we live in sin and we die in sin. Knowledge is what brings sin. It is also what brings growth, allowing a few of us to become gods. The animals are also our brothers and sisters but they cannot sin nor grow, they are stuck as they are.

But, because adam choose knowledge, we were all stuck in sin until christ took that sin on hmself, he being with out sin. He became the scape goat for adam's choice. So we are no lnger stuck in sin.

[Shalom]

Shalom. The problem is as the title I gave this title. Adam and eve had two choices, knowledge or life. But, I think ever animal had that choice not just the humans. One type at a time had to make a choice, until one choose knowledge. So the animals are reborn for ever. Where as adam and eve choose knowledge, giving us sin. Due to their choice we are born in sin, we live in sin and we die in sin. Knowledge is what brings sin. It is also what brings growth, allowing a few of us to become gods. The animals are also our brothers and sisters but they cannot sin nor grow, they are stuck as they are.

But, because adam choose knowledge, we were all stuck in sin until christ took that sin on hmself, he being with out sin. He became the scape goat for adam's choice. So we are no lnger stuck in sin.

Adam and Even had choices. They were to obey or not to obey. To take what belonged to God, or not give in to the temptation. To sin or not to sin. That was their choices and they had the ability to make that choice. They chose to steal what didn't belong to them, and immediately they knew that what they had done was wrong. They now had the knowledge of good and evil.

God created Adam and Eve in his image having the ability to choose because they had the intelligence to make choices like that. The animals didn't have the same intelligence as mankind so they couldn't have made such a choice, nor could they know that such a choice was there to make.

Because of Adam and Eve's sin they were forced out of paradise and had to face the consequences of the sin they had committed. Life on the outside was hard, and the consequences of their sin was passed on to the children because they had to suffer that hard life too.

This world has become a very dangerous place because lust and greed has led mankind to commit some horrible sins that have caused untold suffering over the years since Adam and Eve.

We need a Savior because we can't save ourselves from our sins and their consequences. God chose to do what we could not do for ourselves, he made the way for us to be saved. Jesus came and experienced suffering, and through him God the Father experienced suffering. Jesus wasn't forced to go to the cross, he chose to do it. God understands our suffering because in Christ he was able to experience suffering. Because God was able to make a way to experience suffering, we can know that he understands our suffering, and he will do what it takes to teach us to avoid sin and its consequences. The fact that Jesus was willing to suffer and and shed his blood gives us assurance that God will bring an end to the suffering that sin has caused.

I am a Christian because my hope is in God and what he has done and what he is doing. I've tried to save myself, but I can't, I am a sinner, and I don't even trust myself, all my hope and trust is in God. Jesus died to let us know that God understands and is going to bring and end to sin and death. I choose to believe in Christ and learn from him how to have a better life in this world, and to believe in a life to come where there will be no more suffering and sin will be a thing of the past.

[danielost]

Actually, if you reread the story. Eve didn't know she qas naked until after adam ate the fruit. They both had to choose to take knowledge over life.

[Beany]

I agree with you that we all should be out there trying to make the world a better place. However the vast scope of the problem is much larger than you seem to realize. The world most certainly isn't a better place, if you are one of the people suffering for the many things that sin has caused. Children born into a world that will be nothing but hell for as long as they live. Rape, murder, and every violent thing you can think of is going on somewhere in this world as I am writing this. This world is in a mess, and mankind is helpless to stop it. The problem is way to large and the evil men and women involved are way to many for it to be possible. It is like the world debt, seems no one realizes just how huge it is.

I well realize the vast scope of the problems all of humanity if facing today. I also wonder what the world would be like without all those good people doing their best to make it a better place. Anarchy, most probably, and an even more violent world much like like the Dark Ages. and if mankind created it we have the power to influence it. What's with the suffering business? Sure, every life includes suffering, but most of us don't pack up our bags & move there. Have I suffered? Yes. Have I had joy, love, serenity, good times? Absolutely. Much more of the latter than the former. It is often the suffering that my mind wants to recall, and make a big ol' deal of it, but that is in the past, it's no longer a force in my life, so while I visit those memories, they don't dominate my life. And that's a good thing, because it would cripple me emotionally and leave no attention for the present. And I refuse to view myself as powerless. No doubt the "force of evil" would love it if we all did that, but uh uh, no way, not here.

Edited August 12, 2013 by Beany