Comparing Atlantis

[kmt_sesh]

It was the war of Crete the greeks had forgotten. The sons of( Kleito Keftiu) in the tale - Keftiu were pirates.. Keftiu - people that seize.

Atlante - qoute

The Egyptians would have explained the heiroglyphic word Keftiu to Solon.

Based on Wallis Budge's heiroglyphic dictionary (on page 794):

www.amazon.com/Egyptian-Hieroglyphic-Dictionary-Vol-Geographical/dp/0486236161#reader_0486236161

The verb kefa means "to seize"

and the noun kef-t means "seizure"

Therefore Keftiu means "people who seize"; or using modern words, the Keftiu were acting like "pirates".

Budge's dictionary shows that a typical heiroglyph determinative for these seizures is the "arm, with fingers holding a whip".

Greek mythology seems to have borrowed symbology of the Keftiu "hand and fingers determinative" in creating Greece's mythical "dactyls" (= fingers), who were evil metal-using wizards that once inhabited Crete and Cyprus.

Solon, your country shone forth, in the excellence of her virtue and strength, among all mankind. She was pre-eminent in courage and military skill, and was the leader of the Hellenes. And when the rest fell off from her, being compelled to stand alone, after having undergone the very extremity of danger, she defeated and triumphed over the invaders, and preserved from slavery those who were not yet subjugated, and generously liberated all the rest of us who dwell within the pillars. But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable, because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

The Egyptain Keftiu Kleito, pirates that ruled the open seas of atlas, when Thera`s harbor went under the sea.

While kfa does mean "to capture" (kfa also stands as the noun for the word), the etymology for the ancient Egyptian term kftyw (Keftiu) is not clear and it probably originally referred specifically to Crete, if not the Minoans in general. It might refer to Aegean people in general, although all Aegeans were not Minoans. We know the latter is possible because Keftiu were providing tribute to pharaohs throughout the New Kingdom, and for most of the New Kingdom the Minoans had already been eclipsed (therefore kftyw had to be, at least ultimately, a generic term for the Aegean, just as "Canaanite" was for Levantine tribes).

The extended hand holding a stick (not a whip) was a generic symbol used as a determinative for a great many words denoting physical action or strength. The word kfa would be only one example; therefore, it really has nothing to do with Keftiu and was not used as part of its hieroglyphic spelling. In fact, the determinative for Keftiu is the expected three hills, denoting foreigners.

There probably were pirates in the Aegean as far back as Minoan times (there definitely were later) but this has nothing to do with the Keftiu, who were Aegean peoples who regularly interacted with Egyptians, mainly through trade. But during the heyday of the Minoans, their powerful thalassocracy allowed them to rule over the Aegean and they definitely would have kept piracy to a minimum. That's only natural. It was in their interests to do so.

I'm not poo-pooing your connection between Thera and Atlantis, docyabut2. I've been on record as supporting the possibility of this connection, be it only a dimly remembered event by Plato's time. I am only cautioning the stretching of things too far, if not misinterpretations. In this case I would advise extreme caution in trusting too much in Sir Wallace Budge. I happen to own both volumes of his old dictionary but can't remember the last time I even opened one of them. His work is understood to be seriously outdated and oftentimes just wrong. There are much better or more modern sources to turn to for ancient Egyptian, such as Faulkner's dictionary of Middle Egyptian or the venerable Wörterbuch.

As Daniel Jackson said in the feature film Stargate, "Why do they still publish Budge?" (Or words to that effect.)

[kmt_sesh]

There is a record of a storm that destroyed Egypt, around 1550bc. Perhaps the eruption of Threa.Which also relates to the Cecrops dynasties of the 1500 `s hundreds bc, the kings of Athens, that were said to have been in the Atlantis`s war.

The Tempest Stele (alt. Storm Stele) was erected by Ahmose I early in the eighteenth dynasty of Egypt, circa 1550 BCE. The stele describes a great storm striking Egypt during this time, destroying tombs, temples and pyramids in the Theban region and the work of restoration ordered by the king.

At Tell el Dab'a in Egypt, pumice found at this location has been dated to 1540 BCE, closer to the traditionally accepted date of Thera's eruption

Atlantis was not competely destroy becuse the Keftiu of Crete or the pirates went on to bargin

Cormac has already addressed the dating of the Thera eruption. I needn't elaborate on his wise counsel, other than to stress that it cannot be related to the time of Ahmose I. In point of fact nothing in the Tempest Stela relates to a volcanic eruption but does describe, as you stated, a storm. In particular, it describes flood events. This was as devastating to the Egyptians as drought. And for the most part the stela is pharaonic bombast to proclaim how grand Ahmose I was in setting things right.

Don't get me wrong, Ahmose I was indeed a great king and the founder of the New Kingdom, but his stela does not involve volcanoes.

One last note on Crete. The Thera eruption did not wipe out the Minoans immediately, but set in motion a long and slow decline. This is what allowed the Mycenaeans to come to the fore in the Aegean and supplant the Minoans. It is clear on archaeological and textual grounds that the Mycenaeans took over the Minoan palace complexes on Crete itself. It's the Mycenaeans of the Aegean with whom the Egyptians of New Kingdom times would've been familiar.

[LucidElement]

so how are there not any written works or ANYTHINGGG related to Atlantis, i mean anything that we should be able to find? although, there in lies the question... maybe we have and we have nothing to compare it too. What if we found some foreign stones or what not that were part of the atlantis structure? no way to 100% prove it ya know.

[kmt_sesh]

I don't have much access to books or documents, national libraries or archives as perhaps many here do. I get by information any way I can. There was a parallel between the 10 "God kings" of Atlantis and the first ten kings (or pharaohs would be a more correct term I guess?) of the Ancient Egypt, a time they call the 'Age of the Gods'. In both cases as far as I know, these ten kings were considered god-like, or demi-gods.

But by this argument you could extend the logic to include the first ten kings of most any ancient Near Eastern civilization. Why the Egyptians in particular? Why not the first ten kings of Sumer as recorded on the Sumerian kings list?

It also depends on whether you're talking about the first ten mortal kings or the gods who were said to have ruled in succession before the time of man. In any case, on extant evidence like the Palermo Stone or Turin Canon (or even the fragments of the oldest kings lists from the Early Dynastic Period), these are rarely more than just lists of names. How does that equate them to the kings of Atlantis in Plato's story?

There were more parallels, but I'd have to find the book again. It was available for reading but not downloading, and forgot the title of it.

I don't know what the book might be, but my question would be if it's a book written by a vetted and experienced historian or a book written by a fringe or alternative-history author? There is a world of difference. As I like to say: consider the source.

I know I'm taking a heavy beat (and not only here). I came to realize this is not going to be a very welcoming place for people like me around the first several posts I made here. Its fine really, I'll let the more versed individuals in this topic to carry on, I won't engage in them anymore.

I hope you will continue to engage. Do not be overly intimidated. Just be prepared to cite your sources or provide links.

BTW, thanks for not insulting my approach too directly .

I try not to be too abrasive. Sometimes I fail.

[cormac mac airt]

so how are there not any written works or ANYTHINGGG related to Atlantis, i mean anything that we should be able to find? although, there in lies the question... maybe we have and we have nothing to compare it too. What if we found some foreign stones or what not that were part of the atlantis structure? no way to 100% prove it ya know.

The obvious answer would be there's nothing to find because it didn't exist.

cormac

[kmt_sesh]

so how are there not any written works or ANYTHINGGG related to Atlantis, i mean anything that we should be able to find? although, there in lies the question... maybe we have and we have nothing to compare it too. What if we found some foreign stones or what not that were part of the atlantis structure? no way to 100% prove it ya know.

Someone in an earlier post suggested finding a sign that says "Welcome to Atlantis." I agree that would be awfully helpful.

But it ain't likely to happen.

Look at other civilizations that have been studied in modern times. Look at the Hittites, for that matter. They're mentioned in the Bible, but until relatively modern times many people assumed they were fictional because there was no definitive evidence for their existence. Then their ancient capital city of Hatti was found and excavated in central Anatolia, and it snowballed from there. Now we know a hell of a lot about the Hittites, including the fact that their language is the oldest-preserved form of Indo-European known to this day.

So that's the rub. In the past two centuries of Mediterranean archaeology, both on land and in the sea, why has there never been found a single monumental inscription with the word "Atlantis" on it? What was their language and why is it not preserved anywhere? It certainly wouldn't have been Greek, but it's considerably unrealistic to expect that such a large and sophisticated society left not a single example of their written language...anywhere. What were their forms of pottery and why has not a trace of it survived...anywhere? Archaeologists can identify Roman, Greek, Mycenaean, Minoan, Hebrew, Egyptian, Persian, Hittite, and other people's pottery and in most cases can specify the time period during which it was made, even from the prehistoric stages of these people. No "mystery" pottery is known, as far as I'm aware.

I could go on and on, as is my style, but let me cut it short by saying there's nothing identifiably "Atlantean" in the material culture or archaeological record anywhere in the Mediterranean world.

That speaks volumes.

[LucidElement]

That was what i was thinking. Im sure there are many lost underwater civilizations. But im just not sure about atlantis. i figure there should be some sort of clues or like KMT says "written language or pottery" or something along that sort.

[Harte]

So that's the rub. In the past two centuries of Mediterranean archaeology, both on land and in the sea, why has there never been found a single monumental inscription with the word "Atlantis" on it?

Obviously, one wouldn't expect this since Plato had Critias tell us that Dropides told him that Solon said (talk about "Chinese whispers") he had "hellenized" the names of people and places in the tale.

Atlantis never existed. But even if it did, Plato infers that it wasn't called "Atlantis," which is a Greek word.

What was their language and why is it not preserved anywhere? It certainly wouldn't have been Greek, but it's considerably unrealistic to expect that such a large and sophisticated society left not a single example of their written language...anywhere. What were their forms of pottery and why has not a trace of it survived...anywhere? Archaeologists can identify Roman, Greek, Mycenaean, Minoan, Hebrew, Egyptian, Persian, Hittite, and other people's pottery and in most cases can specify the time period during which it was made, even from the prehistoric stages of these people. No "mystery" pottery is known, as far as I'm aware.

The absence of pottery, art and other hallmarks is the most telling.

The true believers think that all this might one day be discovered. They don't think about the fact that the lands around the Med, which Atlantis was supposed to have conquered and occupied, are constantly being dug into by archaeology or plowed by farms or excavated for new construction.

If there was anything there, we would have found it.

The escape route for the fringe, when they are pressed on the facts, is to claim that the "conquering" part of the story is fabricated. Fine, but that's moving away from what the story is actually about. When you remove the core of the tale, what do you have left?

Under those circumstances, literally anything can be Atlantis.

Atlanta is Atlantis. You can tell by the similarity of names. Not in the right geographic area? Plato made that part up. Atlanta dates to modernity? Plato was psychic. Etcetera.

Harte

[docyabut2]

The only volcanic material from Thera has been dated to c.1613 BC

cormac

The Stela storm 1550bc and the volcanic material in Egypt was frist dated 1550bc, so they want to now date Thera euption to 1613bc, that only sixty three years , that pretty darn close to the Athens kings of the1550bc`s and of this war in the tale of atlantis and their life times. Dates are always debatable before 500bc.

[docyabut2]

Atlantis was a named given by Solon in poem, a female form of a island of the sea of atlas, that posidion the sea god had created.Posidion created islands.

Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil

[cormac mac airt]

The Stela storm 1550bc and the volcanic material in Egypt was frist dated 1550bc, so they want to now date Thera euption to 1613bc, that only sixty three years , that pretty darn close to the Athens kings of the1550bc`s and of this war in the tale of atlantis and their life times. Dates are always debatable before 500bc.

Which means that you don't understand what's been said about the volcanic material to begin with. It's not that the material was first dated to 1550 BC, it's that the material wasn't found in an archaeological context until that time. Which means that whlie the pumice had been delivered to Egypt prior to then it was not being used by the Egyptians as an abrasive until later. Exactly "why" the Egyptians didn't start using it until later remains a matter of debate. And even thought they didn't start using it until later that's still 100 years before your date of 1450 BC.

cormac

[The Puzzler]

Atlantis was a named given by Solon in poem, a female form of a island of the sea of atlas, that posidion the sea god had created.Posidion created islands.

Poseidon fell in love with her and had intercourse with her, and breaking the ground, inclosed the hill in which she dwelt all round, making alternate zones of sea and land larger and smaller, encircling one another; there were two of land and three of water, which he turned as with a lathe, each having its circumference equidistant every way from the centre, so that no man could get to the island, for ships and voyages were not as yet. He himself, being a god, found no difficulty in making special arrangements for the centre island, bringing up two springs of water from beneath the earth, one of warm water and the other of cold, and making every variety of food to spring up abundantly from the soil

I often wonder what Cleito really represents - the name is hard to find any meaning for.

Does anyone have any ideas?

What I have so far, is ILLUSTRIOUS - possibly coming from the variant Cletus.

Greek meaning of the boy´s name Cletus:

• illustrious
  

• Well known and very distinguished; eminent.
  
• Obsolete. Shining brightly.
  

http://www.answers.com/topic/illustrious

This to me, could be a likely meaning for Cleito.

[The Puzzler]

Sorry, but the Sea People's invasion was an invasion, as far as anyone can tell.

Harte

I don't think you can that so positively, nor do I see you provide any evidence it was simply an invasion - whereas I have showed you a few now and here's another one - simply an invasion you say, simply your opinion I'd say.

The latter sources indicate that the Sea Peoples were not simply engaged in random acts of plundering but were part of a significant movement of displaced peoples migrating into Syria-Palestine and Egypt. It is clear that they planned to settle in the areas that they attacked, since they are portrayed not merely as armies of warriors but also as whole families bringing their possessions with them in ox-drawn carts. Study of the 'tribal' names recorded by the Egyptians and Hittites has shown that various groups of the Sea Peoples can be linked either with particular homelands, or at least with the places in which they finally settled. Thus, the Ekwesh and Denen may possibly be correlated with the Achaean and Danaean Greeks of the Iliad, the Lukka may have derived from the Lycian region of Anatolia, the Sherden may have originated in Sardinia, and the Peleset are almost certainly to be identified with the biblical Philistines (who gave their name to Palestine).

http://www.ancient-egypt.co.uk/people/pages/sea_people.htm

[Harte]

I don't think you can that so positively, nor do I see you provide any evidence it was simply an invasion - whereas I have showed you a few now and here's another one - simply an invasion you say, simply your opinion I'd say.

I think the fact that I included the phrase "as far as anyone can tell" should indicate the absence of finality in the statement.

However, what is an "invasion?"

The quote you provided is also an opinion. The fact is, the Sea Peoples conquered and moved on, bringing with them more and more recruits.

Is this the behavior of a group that is simply searching for a new homeland to settle in? If these folks were the roots of the Atlantean fable, why were they killing people then moving on?

Harte

[The Puzzler]

I think the fact that I included the phrase "as far as anyone can tell" should indicate the absence of finality in the statement.

However, what is an "invasion?"

The quote you provided is also an opinion. The fact is, the Sea Peoples conquered and moved on, bringing with them more and more recruits.

Is this the behavior of a group that is simply searching for a new homeland to settle in? If these folks were the roots of the Atlantean fable, why were they killing people then moving on?

Harte

Killing people then moving on..? I have no idea, rather a nothing question really imo.

Anyways, I see more written about the ox-carts and women and a kind of attacking migration scenario than anything, hard to understand or know why really, except famine seems to be rife within the Aegean and earthquakes did occur, damage at Mycenae shows this time frame:

Mycenaean civilization as a whole overlaps later Greek culture in area (fig. 1) and around 1250 and 1200 B.C., earthquakes damaged a considerable number of their palaces, including Mycenae itself

http://tectonic-cult...bronze-age.html

Everything's an opinion I spose in the end, whether we choose to believe what we see or read, I put forward my reasons for thinking it's possible they were fleeing, migrating but also doing it in a dominant, war-like fashion.

Edit to add: Also, I never really was a person who thought too much about the Sea People as Atlanteans but as I go on, really they can only be them, there is no attacks by any one else really of note - with Greeks involved, Aechaeans, Danaans, Poseidon line into Greece - the only other one being the Athena/Poseidon contest of Athens, which I've extensively covered previously as a ' theory' I had on it all. The flooding of Attica can be when Mycenae was hit by earthquakes, I read somewhere, maybe that same paper I linked above. The northern areas of Africa and the coasts of Libya and well as Crete are probable to have suffered seismic damage at this time also. Then you have Troy, Herodotus barely can get anything on this yet it supposedly occurred - is it all one and the same, plus the earthquakes, which also show at Troy, same time, hot weather, famine, fall of ages, catastrophes of losing writing, etc - it can only really be this time frame and I doubt these are many different events, but one and the same.

Edited August 18, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

After the Titanomachy and Zeus, Poseidon and Hades draw their lots, Helios should have been there too, but he didn't show up, so he missed out on ruling anything - this means that the Sun was absent from sight - hidden, like Helios hid his face when Phaethon went down. These all point to being connected. I'm very surprised that Thera shows such an earlier date of eruption too really, one really would think it sat within the 1200BC timeframe too.

SO they date the whole second millennium BC chronology in the Aegean on the Thera eruption fallout but they don't actually know when it was.....

I'd like to see any sort of cultural evidence that ANYTHING of note actually happened in this timeframe 1600-1500BC that could indicate ANYTHING remotely connected with an eruption at this time - anything, myth, legend, written text, migration scenarios of that time, where anyone went...anything that corroborates an actual eruption at the time they say, which surely would have been remembered as something.

The radiocarbon dates have significant implications for the accepted chronology of Eastern Mediterranean cultures.^[22][23] The Minoan eruption is a key marker for the Bronze Age archaeology of the Eastern Mediterranean world. It provides a fixed point for aligning the entire chronology of the second millennium BCE in the Aegean, because evidence of the eruption is found throughout the region. Despite this evidence, the exact date of the eruption has been difficult to determine. For most of the twentieth century, archaeologists placed it at approximately 1500 BCE,^[15] but this date appeared to be too young as radiocarbon dating analysis of an olive tree buried beneath a lava flow from the volcano indicates that the eruption occurred between 1627 BCE and 1600 BCE with a 95% degree of probability.

http://en.wikipedia....Minoan_eruption

I just found this:

H Pichler and W Friedrich noted that the state of the geology suggests a two stage collapse of the island, the two stages considered to have been immediately one after the other. Maybe the second stage of the collapse was actually 400 years later. L Pomerance associates the general havoc c 1200 BC in the whole Mediterranean world with the final collapse of the chamber. Either the second stage was an eruption of new magma, or the volcano was left after the first collapse in a metastable state until another seismic event—Santorini was also struck by a devastating earthquake in 1956—triggered the second collapse, perhaps with sea water breaking into the magma chamber. -

No remains of settlements dated from 1500 to 1200 BC have been found on Santorini. It suggests that the later collapse (around 1200 BC?) was more catastrophic, with the settlements that must have formed in between times, when the tuff had consolidated and sprouted some vegetation, being literally washed off the island. The whole of the contents of the caldera, a mud of sea water and tephra, frothed up and over the rim carrying ash and large rocks from the collapse of the magma chamber. -

Curiously, the uncalibrated date is about 1300 BC! Are the calibrations really sound? The whole needs repeating critically. If the dates are right, the chronological adjustments needed are not great but they would put the mockers on any reduction of the dates, and that is where most of the somewhat later data

There seems to be no other explanation and I think the topic could be explored further, there seems to be no disruption at 1600BC but huge disruption at 1300-1200BC, which is also when the Sea People wreaked havoc and the Bronze Age ended.

Edited August 18, 2013 by The Puzzler

[The Puzzler]

Sorry, I forgot to add the link to the above info and have now closed the page, I did find this though: http://www.anistor.gr/english/enback/v024.htm

Oh here it is: http://www.askwhy.co.uk/analogiesandconjectures/DatingTheraEruption.php

[NO-ID-EA]

I like some of your ideas. I'll absorb your post a bit more but add this for now.

I also think the Phaethon myth is something to do with Atlantis and why it's incorporated into the story.

It could be possible that the impact caused the earth to tremble, creating earthquakes and floods. These would have been dominant on many fault areas, including the Atlantic.

That it happened in a single day and night is telling and an impact imo is one way this could happen so quickly.

My area of knowledge of impact lies with Kaali in Saaremaar, Estonia. Don't get me started on Gotland, island of labyrinths.

This is possible Aesti/Aesir territory and where the Sami still live - noted also by me - berbers and Saami share dna, albeit from c. 7500BC, nevertheless, something is shared by this people, ancient knowledge and possibly why we see some similarities between Egyptian and Nordic mythology. I actually believe it's the shaman priests of both cultures who led the rest of the world to some of the oldest beliefs.

Phaethons fall included reference to amber and Helios so seems likely to me to have occurred in the area of the Baltic, so conclude that the impact mentioned is the one spoken of for Phaethon.

Kaali is a small group of nine unique meteorite craters on Saaremaa. The largest of the craters measures 110 meters in diameter and contains a small lake (known as Kaali järv (Lake Kaali)). The meteor cluster had an impact velocity of 10–20 km/s and a mass of 20-80 tons. At the altitude of 5–10 km the meteor broke into pieces. The largest fragment produced the main crater with a depth of 22 m. Eight smaller craters with diameters ranging from 12 to 40 m and depths varying from 1 to 4 m are all within 1 kilometer of the main crater. The age estimates of the crater vary, with 4000 ± 1000 BCE being a commonly accepted estimate,^[3] though other estimates suggest the explosion was as recent as 660 ± 85 BCE (Holocene).^[4] The energy of the impact (about 80 TJ (20 kilotons of TNT), comparable with the Hiroshima bomb) burned forests within a radius of 6 km. There are numerous legends related to the crater; these are summarized by Lennart Meri in his book Hõbevalg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saaremaa

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice. At some point during the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall 470 meters long, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.^{[citation needed]}

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"^[5] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest"

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kaali_crater

If this meteor was seen in the sky for some time before it hit , and caused worldwide destruction,not only at the Kaali crater/impact point , which could have been traced by the ancients back to kaali , could a new age be named after it , the date you gave of 4000 plus or minus 1000 years , could tie up with Kali Yuga given as commencing on Friday , February the 18th , 3102 BCE in ancient Hindu texts.

[Harte]

Your source is a site dedicated to accomodating Biblical text to archaeological findings:

Abstract: What this Website is About

AskWhy! Books explains Christianity and Judaism, and Christian and Jewish origins, their history, faults, fallacies, and alternatives, based on truth not wishful thinking—faith!—but on scientific and historical evidence. The real history of these religions is rational, unlike the sacred history. For Adelphiasophism and Secular Christianity, a bible has to be a personal worldview, a guide to morality and preserving the world, should serve educationally, for inspiration, as a source of facts and as a basic moral text. It should be a primer of philosophy, science and society. It would explain our relationship with other creatures, and our place in the solar system and the universe, and our duties and responsibilities to each other and to Nature. The guiding stars of Nature are wisdom and empathy. Adelphiasophists do not fear the vengeance of any vindictive and jealous god, but see society as part of Nature, the Great Mother of all things, into whose world we are born to nourish and protect us. If we offend Nature, harm the world, it will hurt us back—eventually.

They find the 1613 BC (or thereabouts) date as inconvenient as you do.

IMO, you're both chasing shadows.

Harte

[LucidElement]

All this Atlantis talk made me realize there is much more Greek mythology too it then I orinially thought. I'm having a tough time keeping up in this thread lol.

[The Puzzler]

Your source is a site dedicated to accomodating Biblical text to archaeological findings:

They find the 1613 BC (or thereabouts) date as inconvenient as you do.

IMO, you're both chasing shadows.

Harte

It doesn't change the facts they used from scientific sources.

Like I said, where's any evidence of any changes from a major 1600BC eruption?

[The Puzzler]

All this Atlantis talk made me realize there is much more Greek mythology too it then I orinially thought. I'm having a tough time keeping up in this thread lol.

I think you have to be able to recognise what to look for if expected to find anything from it - your original question.

They'll only be able to identify it if we can actually identify it to know we found anything.

[kmt_sesh]

It doesn't change the facts they used from scientific sources.

Like I said, where's any evidence of any changes from a major 1600BC eruption?

It depends where you look. There is evidence of ash deposition around the eastern Mediterranean and Nile Delta which dates to this period, which is not surprising. The eruption would've spewed detritus all over the place. Most other cultures probably would not have been severely affected, so you have to turn to the predominant cultures of the Aegean: Minoans and Mycenaeans.

Prior to the late seventh century BCE the Minoans held the Aegean under their thalassocracy. Their power and stability are underscored by their elaborate palace culture on Crete and luxurious towns such as on Thera. After the eruption, however, the Minoans went into a slow decline. Why this was happening in the earlier days of scholarship was never well understood. For one reason it used to be thought Thera erupted around 1500 BCE. By this point in time, however, it was the Mycenaeans who dominated the Aegean. How to explain this, considering the Minoans were the dominant power beforehand?

More recent and accurate carbon dating has established the eruption more than a century earlier, so it makes sense. The eruption which occurred around 1613 BCE spelled the death knell of the Minoans, as protracted as it was. By the Late Bronze Age it was clearly the Mycenaeans who occupied Crete and other Aegean strongholds.

This alone shows a violent disruption to a stable and powerful state, which had ruled the Aegean for centuries prior to the eruption. Archaeological evidence as well as C14 analyses corroborate this. Does it mean we can be absolutely 100% certain? No, we almost never can be, but the logic of it comes into play, too.

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On the subject of the Sea Peoples and the debate you and Harte have been enjoying, almost all of our tangible information about them comes from the monuments of Merneptah and Ramesses III. There is practically nothing else from surrounding civilizations, aside from a tantalizing letter found in the ruins of Ugarit which speaks of enemy ships in the harbor (Ugarit was subsequently hit and never occupied again).

I've studied and read all of the Egyptian inscriptions pertaining to their two failed attempts to take Egypt, and it might be my failing memory but I can't recall if these inscriptions provide much of any real detail on family members traveling with the Sea Peoples. I don't doubt that at least some information is there, but I caution against trying to make too much out of it. I'd have to review the research again to refresh my own memory.

On the subject of exactly who the Sea Peoples were, this will probably never be fully understood. But solid theories exist based on the tribal peoples mentioned by the Egyptians. The Sea Peoples included numerous ethnicities and Greek peoples were only one part of the overall group. Most historians who've studied this subject are confident in their identification of ethnicities everywhere from Italy to Asia Minor. Regarding the two different invasions of Egypt, it seems clear the Sea Peoples banded together as mercenaries under the Libyans, who were the primary driving force behind the Egyptian invasions.

Why exactly these Sea Peoples had left their homelands and set out to sea is still very hotly debated. I've read numerous books and articles on the subject and the one thing I can say with confidence is there are numerous theories but no universal agreement. I personally would posit it wasn't any one cause but a multiplicity of issues that was causing societal disruption all over the northern Mediterranean at the end of the Bronze Age. In any case I can't see how the Sea Peoples would pertain at all to Plato's accounts, or how people of Plato's times would even have remembered something about these sea-going marauders so long before their own time.

I'll shut up now. I've probably only made things worse.

[The Puzzler]

It depends where you look. There is evidence of ash deposition around the eastern Mediterranean and Nile Delta which dates to this period, which is not surprising. The eruption would've spewed detritus all over the place. Most other cultures probably would not have been severely affected, so you have to turn to the predominant cultures of the Aegean: Minoans and Mycenaeans.

Prior to the late seventh century BCE the Minoans held the Aegean under their thalassocracy. Their power and stability are underscored by their elaborate palace culture on Crete and luxurious towns such as on Thera. After the eruption, however, the Minoans went into a slow decline. Why this was happening in the earlier days of scholarship was never well understood. For one reason it used to be thought Thera erupted around 1500 BCE. By this point in time, however, it was the Mycenaeans who dominated the Aegean. How to explain this, considering the Minoans were the dominant power beforehand?

OK sure, the Minoans went into slow decline from the Thera eruption but I'm not talking ash deposits, I'm talking a recollection of it somewhere. Circa1200BC earthquakes hit hard and is what displaced the Sea People as well as the Mycenaeans etc etc. We have no record of the eruption in any culture as far as they know, why didn't it rate a mention? I don't actually think the 'sinking of Atlantis' occurred when Thera erupted in 1600BC but rather the earthquakes of 1200BC were to blame. I use 'sinking of Atlantis' because I refer to some kind of catastrophe the earthquake caused, but am not sure yet exactly where to place the core of it. I'm looking for something along the North African coast specifically, which at the time also hit Mycenae. (1200BC)

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On the subject of the Sea Peoples and the debate you and Harte have been enjoying,

Such a joy

The rest of your post, I won't say much for now, I'm very tired but I acknowledge what you said - I think the text states --- with women and children and some pictures of them. I will say UNDER the Libyans they banded together to attack the Delta and the whole of the Aegean, these men who had come from various isles, at the time of massive earthquake upheaval and the events recorded in registers in Egypt. My logic tells me that this is too similar to be different.

Edited August 19, 2013 by The Puzzler

[Mario Dantas]

I like some of your ideas. I'll absorb your post a bit more but add this for now.

I also think the Phaethon myth is something to do with Atlantis and why it's incorporated into the story.

It could be possible that the impact caused the earth to tremble, creating earthquakes and floods. These would have been dominant on many fault areas, including the Atlantic.

That it happened in a single day and night is telling and an impact imo is one way this could happen so quickly.

My area of knowledge of impact lies with Kaali in Saaremaar, Estonia. Don't get me started on Gotland, island of labyrinths.

This is possible Aesti/Aesir territory and where the Sami still live - noted also by me - berbers and Saami share dna, albeit from c. 7500BC, nevertheless, something is shared by this people, ancient knowledge and possibly why we see some similarities between Egyptian and Nordic mythology. I actually believe it's the shaman priests of both cultures who led the rest of the world to some of the oldest beliefs.

Phaethons fall included reference to amber and Helios so seems likely to me to have occurred in the area of the Baltic, so conclude that the impact mentioned is the one spoken of for Phaethon.

Kaali is a small group of nine unique meteorite craters on Saaremaa. The largest of the craters measures 110 meters in diameter and contains a small lake (known as Kaali järv (Lake Kaali)). The meteor cluster had an impact velocity of 10–20 km/s and a mass of 20-80 tons. At the altitude of 5–10 km the meteor broke into pieces. The largest fragment produced the main crater with a depth of 22 m. Eight smaller craters with diameters ranging from 12 to 40 m and depths varying from 1 to 4 m are all within 1 kilometer of the main crater. The age estimates of the crater vary, with 4000 ± 1000 BCE being a commonly accepted estimate,^[3] though other estimates suggest the explosion was as recent as 660 ± 85 BCE (Holocene).^[4] The energy of the impact (about 80 TJ (20 kilotons of TNT), comparable with the Hiroshima bomb) burned forests within a radius of 6 km. There are numerous legends related to the crater; these are summarized by Lennart Meri in his book Hõbevalg

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saaremaa

Scholars maintain that the event figured prominently in regional mythology. It was, and still is, considered a sacred lake. There is archaeological evidence that it may well have been a place of ritual sacrifice. At some point during the early Iron Age, the lake was surrounded by a stone wall 470 meters long, with a median width of about 2.5 meters and an average height of 2.0 meters.^{[citation needed]}

Finnish mythology has stories that may originate with the formation of Kaali. One of them is in runes 47, 48 and 49 of the Kalevala epic: Louhi, the evil wizard, steals the Sun and fire from people, causing total darkness. Ukko, the god of the sky, orders a new Sun to be made from a spark. The virgin of the air starts to make a new Sun, but the spark drops from the sky and hits the ground. This spark goes to an "Aluen" or "Kalevan"^[5] lake and causes its water to rise. Finnish heroes see the ball of fire falling somewhere "behind the Neva river" (the direction of Estonia from Karelia). The heroes head that direction to seek fire, and they finally gather flames from a forest fire.

According to a theory first proposed by Lennart Meri, it is possible that Saaremaa was the legendary Thule island, first mentioned by ancient Greek geographer Pytheas, whereas the name "Thule" could have been connected to the Finnic word tule ("(of) fire") and the folklore of Estonia, which depicts the birth of the crater lake in Kaali. Kaali was considered the place where "The sun went to rest"

http://en.wikipedia....ki/Kaali_crater

Puzzler,

Thanks, very interesting information!

I searched some and found this book on Saaremaa impact craters:

The Structure and Age of the Kaali Main Crater, Island of Saaremaa, Estonia

...

Conclusions

We have compiled a detailed morphological map of the Kaali crater, which allows to establish the formation energy of the crater. The results obtained through direct dating of organic matter in the main crater and palynological studies show that the craters are at least 3390+-35 years old; however, actually they should be much older. The crater-producing impact was rather weak and did not cause any ecological catastrophe in the environment.

http://books.google.com/books?id=2zRK6DCWyq0C&lpg=PA232&ots=hC0eR1NXPn&dq=dobele%20crater&pg=PA341#v=onepage&q=dobele%20crater&f=false

Although these craters could have been generated simultaneously and therefore a part of an hypothetical meteoric “shower” that led to the demise of Atlantis, i believe that it was not it, that is, the main impact (if there was ever one). For an island as large as Atlantis to have vanished from the Gibraltar/Azores region, it would have taken a more powerful blow to the crust, in my opinion.

The Baltic region has, nevertheless, some pretty old stuff, archaeologically speaking, and is the proposed location for Troy city, by felice Vinci in “Homer in the Baltic”. It seems pretty obvious to me that something indeed happened there. The Scandinavian peninsula was probably once another large island near Atlantis, the island of Scania:

Various reference to the region can also be found in Pytheas, Pomponius Mela, Tacitus, Ptolemy, Procopius and Jordanes. It is believed that the name used by Pliny may be of West Germanic origin, originally denoting Scania.[20] According to some scholars, the Germanic stem can be reconstructed as *Skaðan- meaning "danger" or "damage" (English scathing, German Schaden, Dutch schade).[21] The second segment of the name has been restructed as *awjō, meaning "land on the water" or "island"

Pliny's descriptions of Scatinavia and surrounding areas are not always easy to decipher, even though his writing of geography was what he considered a "clarior fama" ("a clearer story"). Writing in the capacity of a Roman admiral, he introduces the northern region by declaring to his Roman readers that there are 23 islands "Romanis armis cognitae" ("known to Roman arms") in this area. According to Pliny, the "clarissima" ("most famous") of the region's islands is Scatinavia, of unknown size. There live the Hilleviones. The belief that Scandinavia was an island became widespread among classical authors during the first century and dominated descriptions of Scandinavia in classical texts during the centuries that followed.

The name "Scandia", later used as a synonym for Scandinavia, also appears in Pliny's Naturalis Historia, but is used for a group of Northern European islands which he locates north of Britannia. "Scandia" thus does not appear to be denoting the island Scadinavia in Pliny's text. The idea that "Scadinavia" may have been one of the "Scandiae" islands was instead introduced by Ptolemy (c.90 – c.168 AD), a mathematician, geographer and astrologer of Roman Egypt. He used the name "Skandia" for the biggest, most easterly of the three "Scandiai" islands, which according to him were all located east of Jutland.[21]

The earliest Samiyoik texts written down refer to the world as Skadesi-suolo (north-Sami) and Skađsuâl (east-Sami), meaning "Skaði's island" (Svennung 1963). Svennung considers the Sami name to have been introduced as a loan word from the North Germanic languages;[36] "Skaði" is the giant stepmother of Freyr and Freyja in Norse mythology.

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Scandinavia

In the same vein, the Fenno-Scandinavian Shield could have been pushed away eastwards and became extremely deformed into a Peninsula:

Together with slices of older basement, these rocks were thrust several 100 km eastwards over the edge of the Fennoscandian Shield in several large thrust sheets known as nappes, when North America and Greenland collided with Scandinavia during the Caledonian orogeny ca. 400 Ma ago. Areas of Caledonian deformation, which also include the Precambrian gneisses of western Norway.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scandinavia#Pliny_the_Elder.27s_descriptions

Meaning, that the baltic region might have been also influenced by a Greenlandic continental collision...

Regards,

Mario Dantas

Edited August 19, 2013 by Mario Dantas