Atlantis = Niflheim

[Purple Octopus]

Forgive me, I went back and read your first post and your thoughts are well laid out there. Let me study it for a bit before I respond.

[granpa]

also read posts 15, 18, 35 and 40

Edited August 26, 2013 by granpa

[Purple Octopus]

Will do.

[granpa]

This thread appears to be dead so I'll just sum up.

The original world before Surtr (Suriel) and the Fire Giants according to norse cosmology:

The original world before Ymir according to norse cosmology:

The world the Æsir built according to norse cosmology::

One can see why the middle world was called MIDgard

Ymir is mentioned in two books of the Prose Edda; Gylfaginning and Skáldskaparmál. Ymir is first mentioned in chapter 5 of the prior, in which High, Just-As-High, and Third tell Gangleri (the disguised mythical king Gylfi) about how all things came to be. The trio explain that the first world to exist was Muspell, a glowing, fiery southern region consisting of flames, uninhabitable by non-natives. After "many ages" Niflheimr was made, and within it lies a spring, Hvergelmir, from which flows twelve rivers.

Gangleri asks the three what things were like before mankind. High continues that these icy rivers, which are called Élivágar, ran so far from their spring source that the poisonous matter that flows with them became hard "like the clinker that comes from a furnace"—it turned to ice. And so, when this ice came to a halt and stopped flowing, the vapor that rose up from the poison went in the same direction and froze to rime. This rime increased, layer upon layer, across Ginnungagap.

Just-As-High adds that the northern part of Ginnungagap was heavy with ice and rime, and vapor and blowing came inward from this. Yet the southern part of Ginunngagap was clear on account of the sparks and molten flecks flying from Muspell. Third assesses that "just as from Niflheim there was coldness and all things grim, so what was facing close to Muspell was hot and bright, but Ginunngagap was as mild as a windless sky". Third adds that when the rime and hot air met, it thawed and dripped, and the liquid intensely dropped. This liquid fell into the shape of a man, and so he was named Ymir.

High explains that Ymir is the ancestor of all jötnar (specifically hrimthursar), and that it is said that when Ymir slept, he sweated, and from his left arm and right arm grew a male and a female, and his left leg produced a song with his right leg, and from them came generations

In Vafþrúðnismál Odin asks the Giant Vafþrúðnir about the origin of Ymir. Vafþrúðnir answers:

From Éliwaves

Eitrdrops splashed

that grew into a giant

who begat all families

from which all [giants] come

that is why we are easily angered

Eitr would of course be aether which means air

AETHER : Greek protogenos god of upper air & light ; mythology : AITHER

AITHER (or Aether) was the Protogenos (first-born elemental god) of the bright, glowing upper air of heaven

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bergelmir

In Norse mythology, Bergelmir (/bɛərˈjɛlmɪər/ bair-YEL-meer; Old Norse "Mountain Yeller" or "Bear Yeller")[1] is a frost giant, the son of giant Þrúðgelmir and the grandson of Ymir

According to the Gylfaginning section of the Prose Edda by Snorri Sturluson, Bergelmir and his wife alone among the giants were the only survivors of the enormous deluge of blood which flowed from Ymir's wounds when he was killed by Odin and his brothers Vili and Ve. They escaped the sanguinary flood by climbing onto an object and subsequently became the progenitors of a new race of frost giants

Atlantis - Greek Mythology Link

According to Plato's account it was Solon, the Athenian statesman and poet whom History says lived 600 years after the Trojan War, the one who brought from Egypt the story of Atlantis. The very old Egyptian priest who talked with Solon was not at all impressed by the ancient stories of the Greeks, such as the one referring to Phoroneus as "the first man," or the legend of the Flood of Deucalion 1, for these stories, according to his view, were not at all ancient.

This Egyptian priest knew that humankind is periodically destroyed, either by fire or water, or by lesser means. And behind the story of Phaethon 3, the Egyptian said, lies the shifting of the celestial bodies around the earth, which cause destruction by fire on its surface at long intervals. When this happens those living in dry areas or dwelling in mountains suffer destruction more than those living near rivers or by the sea. On the other hand, when the world is flooded, those living in mountains are saved, but those populating the cities near the sea are swept into it by the streams. Things being of this nature, those living by the Nile were spared when the world was destroyed by fire, and when it was destroyed by water they were also spared because rain is scarce in Egypt, the water welling up always from below. In this way, said the Egyptian priest, memories of ancient times could be preserved in this country while all records were destroyed elsewhere.

If the flood of Atlantis was supposed to be the very first great flood then presumably that would be the flooding of niflheim that killed Ymir and the ice giants.

It is tempting to connect that with the story of the Nephilim in the biblical flood.

if atlantis is niflheim then it should be in the north

black sea perhaps?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Sea_deluge_theory

The Black Sea deluge is a hypothesized catastrophic rise in the level of the Black Sea circa 5600 BC due to waters from the Mediterranean Sea breaching a sill in the Bosporus Strait

According to a study by Giosan et al. the level in the Black Sea before the marine reconnection was 30 m below present sea level, rather than the 80 m, or lower, of the catastrophe theories. If the flood occurred at all, the sea level increase and the flooded area during the reconnection were significantly smaller than previously proposed. It also occurred earlier than initially surmised, ca. 7400 BC, rather than the originally proposed 5600 BC

In a series of expeditions, a team of marine archaeologists led by Robert Ballard identified what appeared to be ancient shorelines, freshwater snail shells, drowned river valleys, tool-worked timbers, and man-made structures in roughly 100 metres (330 ft) of water off the Black Sea coast of modern Turkey. Although radiocarbon dating of freshwater mollusc remains indicated an age of about 7,500 years, radiocarbon dating in freshwater molluscs in particular can be inaccurate. Such inaccuracies, however, are always in the direction of objects appearing older than they actually are (containing less 14C than expected), so the time given is a maximum age of a freshwater shoreline at that location

http://religion.wikia.com/wiki/Atlantis

In Plato's account, Atlantis was a naval power lying "in front of the Pillars of Hercules" that conquered many parts of Western Europe and Africa 9,000 years before the time of Solon, or approximately 9600 BCE. After a failed attempt to invade Athens, Atlantis sank into the ocean "in a single day and night of misfortune".

http://religion.wiki...m/wiki/Atlantis

Plato's dialogues Timaeus and Critias, written in 360 BCE, contain the earliest references to Atlantis. For unknown reasons, Plato never completed Critias. Plato introduced Atlantis in Timaeus:

For it is related in our records how once upon a time your State stayed the course of a mighty host, which, starting from a distant point in the Atlantic ocean, was insolently advancing to attack the whole of Europe, and Asia to boot. For the ocean there was at that time navigable; for in front of the mouth which you Greeks call, as you say, 'the pillars of Heracles,' there lay an island which was larger than Libya and Asia together; and it was possible for the travelers of that time to cross from it to the other islands, and from the islands to the whole of the continent over against them which encompasses that veritable ocean. For all that we have here, lying within the mouth of which we speak, is evidently a haven having a narrow entrance; but that yonder is a real ocean, and the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent. Now in this island of Atlantis there existed a confederation of kings, of great and marvelous power, which held sway over all the island, and over many other islands also and parts of the continent.

According to Critias, the Hellenic gods of old divided the land so that each god might own a lot; Poseidon was appropriately, and to his liking, bequeathed the island of Atlantis. The island was larger than Ancient Libya and Asia Minor combined, but it afterwards was sunk by an earthquake and became an impassable mud shoal, inhibiting travel to any part of the ocean. The Egyptians, Plato asserted, described Atlantis as an island comprising mostly mountains in the northern portions and along the shore, and encompassing a great plain of an oblong shape in the south "extending in one direction three thousand stadia [about 555 km; 345 mi], but across the center inland it was two thousand stadia [about 370 km; 230 mi]." Fifty stadia [9 km; 6 mi] from the coast was a mountain that was low on all sides...broke it off all round about.. the central island itself was five stades in diameter [about 0.92 km; 0.57 mi].

A map depicting the location of the Bosphorus (red) relative to the Dardanelles (yellow) and the Sea of Marmara, which together form the Turkish Straits

The "Egypt" that Solon traveled to would have to have been in or along the shores of the sea of Marmara.

This reminds me of the myth involving the Theseus

where he supposedly traveled to Crete

yet its clear to me that he probably only traveled as far as one of the nearby islands

along the road he was traveling.

the outline of the shore inside the sea of marmara kinda looks like the outline of the shore of the Mediterranean

Are you suggesting Plato transplaced Solon in the narrative, and the 'history' that Solon allegedly received from the priest in Sais was actually transmitted to him by someone in Anatolia (around Mamara)?

Dude, unless you believe that there really is an island outside Gibraltar that is larger than Africa and Asia put together and is surrounded by a sea which is itself surrounded by a single giant continent then clearly SOMETHING has to give.

Clearly something that he wrote had to be an exaggeration. I have given you my hypothesis if you have a better one then lets hear it.

I am not saying that he lied outright. That place probably really was called "little Egypt" even if only by the natives and perhaps only in a tongue-in-cheek kind of way.

http://en.wikipedia....e_Egypt_(region)

Southern Illinois (also known as "Little Egypt" or "Egypt") is the southern third of the state of Illinois. With the area code 618, the southern part of Illinois is geographically, culturally, and economically distinct from the rest of the state.

The nickname "Egypt" may have arisen in the 1830s, when poor harvests in the north of the state drove people to Southern Illinois to buy grain. Others say it was because the land of the great Mississippi and Ohio River valleys were like that of Egypt’s Nile delta. According to Hubbs, the nickname may date back to 1818, when a huge tract of land was purchased at the confluence of the rivers and its developers named it Cairo. Today, the town of Cairo still stands on the peninsula where the Ohio River joins the Mississippi. Other settlements in the area were also given names with Egyptian, Greek or Middle Eastern origins: The Southern Illinois University Salukis sports teams and towns such as Metropolis, Thebes, Dongola, Palestine, Lebanon, New Athens, Sparta, and Karnak show the influence of classical culture.

Clearly the continent that he refers to above (the land surrounding it may most rightly be called, in the fullest and truest sense, a continent) can only be asia.

The West Siberian Glacial Lake, also known as West Siberian Lake, or Mansiyskoe Lake (Russian: Мансийское озеро),

was a periglacial lake formed when the Arctic Ocean outlets for each of the Ob and Yenisei rivers were blocked by the Barents-Kara Ice Sheet during the Weichselian Glaciation, approximately 80,000 years ago. At its maximum extent, the lake's surface area was more than twice that of the present-day Caspian Sea.

It is theorized that while drainage to the Arctic Ocean basin (e.g. by the Ob and Yenisei Rivers) was prevented, the lake would eventually overflow to the Mediterranean Sea through a circuitous route that would include the Aral Sea, the Caspian Sea, and the Black Sea. This would have resulted in water from the Selenga River and Lake Baikal draining over a course of some 6,000 miles (9600 km), considerably longer than any river's course today

religion.wikia.com/wiki/User:Granpa/Factoids/Critias

For because of the greatness of their empire many things were brought to them from foreign countries, and the island itself provided most of what was required by them for the uses of life.

In the first place, they dug out of the earth whatever was to be found there, solid as well as fusile, and that which is now only a name and was then something more than a name, orichalcum, was dug out of the earth in many parts of the island, being more precious in those days than anything except gold.

There was an abundance of wood for carpenter's work, and sufficient maintenance for tame and wild animals.

Moreover, there were a great number of mammoths in the island;

for as there was provision for all other sorts of animals, both for those which live in lakes and marshes and rivers, and also for those which live in mountains and on plains, so there was for the animal which is the largest and most voracious of all.

Edited August 27, 2013 by granpa

[granpa]

Note how mountain ranges wrap around the east, south, and west of Russia.

During the ice age the north would have been covered with glaciers.

During the ice age rain that now falls in the tropics would have fallen further north along the polar front

so rainfall amounts would have been many times higher than they are now.

And in the colder weather evaporation would have been less.

https://en.wikipedia...storic_cultures

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mezine

Mezine is a place in the Ukraine having the most artifacts from the Paleolithic culture. The epigravettian site is located on a bank of the Desna river

Gravettian culture is a phase (c.28,000–23,000 ya) of the European Upper Paleolithic that is characterized by a stone-tool industry with small pointed blades used for big-game hunting (bison, horse, reindeer and mammoth).

http://www.bing.com/...ne &form=LMLTCC

Edited August 29, 2013 by granpa

[Abramelin]

The location of Niflheim, according to me:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=179840&st=630#entry3788658

[Harte]

Puzzled by a fringer who claims to be the sole human in millennia who "really" understands what some historical writer meant? You must've skipped your morning coffee today....

-- Jaylemurph

I'm waiting to hear either about pyramids in Southern Illinois or about Atlantis just outside of Cleveland.

Harte

Edited August 30, 2013 by Harte

[granpa]

I'm waiting to hear either about pyramids in Southern Illinois or about Atlantis just outside of Cleveland.

Harte

Is that what they teach you in school?

If you cant argue with what someone says

then you just pretend they said something totally different and argue with that?

Edited August 30, 2013 by granpa

[Harte]

Is that what they teach you in school?

If you cant argue with what someone says

then you just pretend they said something totally different and argue with that?

Why would I need to do that?

Have you said anything that merits even arguing for? Why aren't you arguing for it then? You've made no discernable argument for anything here, so what's to argue against?

Regarding the "pretend" part:

http://en.wikipedia....e_Egypt_(region)

Southern Illinois (also known as "Little Egypt" or "Egypt") is the southern third of the state of Illinois. With the area code 618, the southern part of Illinois is geographically, culturally, and economically distinct from the rest of the state.

The nickname "Egypt" may have arisen in the 1830s, when poor harvests in the north of the state drove people to Southern Illinois to buy grain. Others say it was because the land of the great Mississippi and Ohio River valleys were like that of Egypt’s Nile delta. According to Hubbs, the nickname may date back to 1818, when a huge tract of land was purchased at the confluence of the rivers and its developers named it Cairo. Today, the town of Cairo still stands on the peninsula where the Ohio River joins the Mississippi. Other settlements in the area were also given names with Egyptian, Greek or Middle Eastern origins: The Southern Illinois University Salukis sports teams and towns such as Metropolis, Thebes, Dongola, Palestine, Lebanon, New Athens, Sparta, and Karnak show the influence of classical culture.

I don't need to "pretend" anything gramps. Perhaps you forgot your meds?

Harte

[granpa]

deleted

Edited August 31, 2013 by granpa

[granpa]

If you were as smart as you seem to think you are and had you been paying attention

you would have realized that I posted that as proof that places can be and indeed are named "little Egypt" by the natives.

likewise, the "Egypt" referred to by plato was along the shores of the sea of marmara.

and atlantis was probably somewhere around mezine

You clearly haven't even read what I've gone to so much trouble to write

(I bet you havent even read the op)

and then you post smart aleky remarks about how I'm wrong.

At the very least you should read post 54 and 55

Edited August 31, 2013 by granpa

[Harte]

Shake off that huge inferiority complex.

Where did I say you were wrong?

If you didn't find my post funny, so what?

Harte

[granpa]

no I don't find you funny at all

[Harte]

Again, so what?

Harte

[jaylemurph]

Again, so what?

Harte

I feel like the Venn diagram of people who never find things funny and people who don't like any response but unstifled laud of their genius here is one circle.

-- Jaylemurph

[granpa]

http://college.thamesandhudsonusa.com/web/humanpast/summaries/ch04.html

DEVELOPMENTS IN MODERN BEHAVIOR: THE EUROPEAN UPPER PALEOLITHIC

The Gravettian

The Aurignacian ended around 28,000 years ago, and in central Europe, out of it developed the Gravettian technocomplex (after La Gravette, France): more regionally distinct groups sharing general characteristics over a large area, between 29,000 to 21,000 years ago (the middle Upper Paleolithic), and as late as c. 14,000 years ago in southern and eastern Europe, referred to as Epigravettian. Behavioral innovations mark the period, but were ended by the Last Glacial Maximum. These include semi-sedentism, burial, and projectile technology. Technologically, it is characterized by

prismatic blade technology and a variety of points with steep backing to facilitate hafting

burins and end-scrapers for working of skins, wood, bone, and antler

small (possible bow and arrow) points that divide the period into chronological phases.

javelins thrown with a spearthrower or "atlatl"

[cern]

http://college.thame...aries/ch04.html

DEVELOPMENTS IN MODERN BEHAVIOR: THE EUROPEAN UPPER PALEOLITHIC

The Gravettian

The Aurignacian ended around 28,000 years ago, and in central Europe, out of it developed the Gravettian technocomplex (after La Gravette, France): more regionally distinct groups sharing general characteristics over a large area, between 29,000 to 21,000 years ago (the middle Upper Paleolithic), and as late as c. 14,000 years ago in southern and eastern Europe, referred to as Epigravettian. Behavioral innovations mark the period, but were ended by the Last Glacial Maximum. These include semi-sedentism, burial, and projectile technology. Technologically, it is characterized by

prismatic blade technology and a variety of points with steep backing to facilitate hafting

burins and end-scrapers for working of skins, wood, bone, and antler

small (possible bow and arrow) points that divide the period into chronological phases.

javelins thrown with a spearthrower or "atlatl"

hi gramps

it seems odd but if you read john boardmans The Cambridge Ancient History: The prehistory of the Balkans.... you will find that there were actually people still making aurignacian tools post-glacially in the banat and mutentia regions of present day romania.

peace

[Abramelin]

The location of Niflheim, according to me:

http://www.unexplain...30#entry3788658

[granpa]

the whole artic region was Niflheim.

(especially those parts that were covered with glaciers during the ice age)

So Doggerland would indeed have been a part of Niflheim

Niflhel would have been even further north toward the north pole itself

Edited August 31, 2013 by granpa

[granpa]

hi gramps

it seems odd but if you read john boardmans The Cambridge Ancient History: The prehistory of the Balkans.... you will find that there were actually people still making aurignacian tools post-glacially in the banat and mutentia regions of present day romania.

peace

Not sure what to make of that.

It certainly fits the description though.

Edited August 31, 2013 by granpa

[Abramelin]

the whole artic region was Niflheim.

(especially those parts that were covered with glaciers during the ice age)

So Doggerland would indeed have been a part of Niflheim

Niflhel would have been even further north toward the north pole itself

Dogger Island was what was left of Doggerland after the catastrophic tsunami of 8200 BP.

Cold sea currents from the north and warmer sea currents from the newly formed Channel in the south would have met around Dogger Island, and made it a large island covered in fog.

In the Arctic no warm and cold sea currents meet and thus no fog- "Nifl" - will be formed.

The old name for the North Sea was "Hel". Coincidence?

.

Edited August 31, 2013 by Abramelin

[cern]

hi gramps

it seems odd but if you read john boardmans The Cambridge Ancient History: The prehistory of the Balkans.... you will find that there were actually people still making aurignacian tools post-glacially in the banat and mutentia regions of present day romania.

peace

gramps i should have mentioned that aurignacians were giant cromags and gravettians were gracile. the sunghir giant from near moscow is a good example. he is the guy that was buried with 5000 ivory beads.

if the people making aurignacian tools in europe at the end of the ice age were aurignacians then they would have been islands of giants in a sea of little folks.

peace

[granpa]

http://answers.yahoo...25022701AA87aVt

Do you know that "Atlantis" is an aztec word? atl-antis. atl=water. how did Plato get the word?

antis i think means copper (in Quechua). so perhaps the land of Atlantis had contact with aztec ancestors or were in the area or something. makes you wonder. Plato wrote that Orachalcum was a highly valued metal in Atlantis and it glowed red. kinda like copper.

Remarkably the name Teotihuacan, when translated from the Nahua language means "The place where men become gods."

http://www.viewzone.com/atlantis.html

Atl = Water.

Atlan = In, by, alongside, under water.

Atlah= Abundant water.

Ahtlantica=A big stretch of abundant water (A Nahuatl name for the Atlantic Ocean.).

Atlantona = Resplendent Lady of Water (Another Nahuatl name for the Atlantic Ocean).

Atlantech/Atlantesh = Place under, by, in, alongside water.

Atlantes = Nahuatl name for Atlas holding up the world.

Also coatl = Serpent

And in case you missed it earlier:

atlatl = atl-atl

⁴⁶and about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a great voice, saying, `Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?' that is, `My God, my God, why didst Thou forsake me?'

(In rigorous Mayan language, Heli Lamah Zabac Tani signifies: “Now, I immerse within Him, before the dawning of his presence.”)^[10]

⁴⁷And certain of those standing there having heard, said -- `Elijah he doth call

Edited September 1, 2013 by granpa

[Abramelin]

So Jesus was a Mayan sailor?

[granpa]

The Black Sea is one of four seas named in English after common color terms—the others being the Red Sea, the White Sea and the Yellow Sea

Strabo's Geography (1.2.10) reports that in antiquity, the Black Sea was often just called "the Sea" (ho pontos). For the most part, Graeco-Roman tradition refers to the Black Sea as the "Hospitable sea", Euxeinos Pontos (Εὔξεινος Πόντος). This is a euphemism replacing an earlier "Inhospitable Sea", Pontos Axeinos, first attested in Pindar (c.475 BC). Strabo (7.3.6) thinks that the Black Sea was called "inhospitable" before Greek colonization because it was difficult to navigate, and because its shores were inhabited by savage tribes. The name was changed to "hospitable" after the Milesians had colonized the southern shoreline, the Pontus, making it part of Greek civilization.

It is also possible that the name Axeinos arose by popular etymology from a Scythian word axšaina- "unlit", "dark"; the designation "Black Sea" may thus date from Antiquity.

Edited September 1, 2013 by granpa