The disappearance of Charles Gazzam Hurd.

[petermattson]

I've drawn a (very basic) map of Charles's likely route that night. The black triangle represents Dows Estates, the star indicates the approximate location of the restaurant/night club, the question mark is where he drove his car into the support beam and the X is his address at the Kenmore Hotel. Admittedly, the route requires a great deal of guesswork but I'm hoping it will partially clarify a few things: 1.) the fairly significant distance Charles drove to the restaurant and 2.) the relevant locations that would've been a part of an investigation into his disappearance.

[petermattson]

18 minutes ago, Regi said:

Does anybody know the amount?

No. It may be in the (as yet unconfirmed) police report but it was not in the NYT article.

[petermattson]

I'm going to add this to the discussion because it's more information about the family than has been provided as yet in this thread:

From Charles's granddaughter --

 

"According to Dad, his Hurd relatives dropped him and his mother like hot potatoes after my grandfather disappeared.  He had virtually no contact with any of them after 1937. People didn’t “talk” in those days. There was very little discussion about what happened or what might have happened. I know the Hurds didn’t care for my grandmother or her family, but I don’t really know why.  It wasn’t as though she was from the wrong side of the tracks.  Her family (Schreiber – Van Zandt) was also quite prominent. 

It is true that my grandparents were separated at the time of my grandfather’s disappearance, and there’s evidence that my grandmother was involved with another man (John Adam, whom she later married) as early as 1932 – several years before my grandfather disappeared.  It’s been speculated that John might have had something to do with my grandfather’s disappearance but who knows.  I do know it was John who was responsible for destroying virtually all of my grandfather’s photos.  

Legend has it my grandfather was a bit of a scalawag. He left Yale after only one year, and even though he was gainfully employed in the mortgage business,  he had a penchant for gambling.  Another  theory is that he owed money to the wrong people and he ended up in cement shoes at the bottom of the East River. This is the one I’m most inclined to believe."

[docyabut2]

Quote

There is a lot of cases where business men  mess up and gets lots of  money, then leaves the city.

 

Edited September 14, 2018 by docyabut2

[Vincennes]

19 hours ago, petermattson said:

I've drawn a (very basic) map of Charles's likely route that night. The black triangle represents Dows Estates, the star indicates the approximate location of the restaurant/night club, the question mark is where he drove his car into the support beam and the X is his address at the Kenmore Hotel. Admittedly, the route requires a great deal of guesswork but I'm hoping it will partially clarify a few things: 1.) the fairly significant distance Charles drove to the restaurant and 2.) the relevant locations that would've been a part of an investigation into his disappearance.

I don't know New York at all but do you think this is really a significant distance for a single guy with Charles partying interests to go to where things are really shaking ?  It had to have been a regular spot for him because they knew him well enough to cash a check and that was something a little abnormal for a restaurant to do back then.  

Also, if my theory is right that he cashed the check there in order to "float" it for a couple of days so that he could have the money before it hit the bank, he might have chosen this distance to get it to a spot that would ensure taking it a longer time to get to his bank.  

 

[Regi]

18 hours ago, petermattson said:

He left Yale after only one year,

Info from an engagement announcement is that he graduated in 1925. (Link in post 24, pg. 1.)

[Regi]

53 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

It had to have been a regular spot for him because they knew him well enough to cash a check and that was something a little abnormal for a restaurant to do back then. 

My thought, exactly.

[Regi]

Vin, I take it that you were already aware of the info in post 153. 

Is that correct?

[petermattson]

10 hours ago, Regi said:

Info from an engagement announcement is that he graduated in 1925. (Link in post 24, pg. 1.)

It does seem we have some conflicting info here. This list indicates he was in the freshmen class, would-be graduates of 1926. I would consider it a strong possibility that the engagement announcement may have fudged his record but I will seek clarification with his granddaughter.

[petermattson]

12 hours ago, Vincennes said:

I don't know New York at all but do you think this is really a significant distance for a single guy with Charles partying interests to go to where things are really shaking ?  It had to have been a regular spot for him because they knew him well enough to cash a check and that was something a little abnormal for a restaurant to do back then.  

Also, if my theory is right that he cashed the check there in order to "float" it for a couple of days so that he could have the money before it hit the bank, he might have chosen this distance to get it to a spot that would ensure taking it a longer time to get to his bank.  

 

I agree it would be hard for us to say whether that was a long drive back then (safe to say it would be a long drive NOW -- through midtown during rush hour). It may very well have been as simple as that's where the hot clubs were.

I'm trying to understand why it would matter where he cashed a check though. We don't know where his bank was and assuming the club dropped their checks and deposits every morning, I'm not sure about his money being floated (because I presume everyone would've had a little bit of float time back then without electronic transfers) but I'm open to the idea. Just need it to be explained a bit more.

This does lead me to an additional angle though. At that time, you could write checks everywhere (gas stations, diners, etc.) so what would he have needed cash for at 9 pm that night?

[Vincennes]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 10:09 AM, Regi said:

Vin, I take it that you were already aware of the info in post 153. 

Is that correct?

This guy got away with being a total scoundrel for quite a while.  The answer is simply that he lied (and I guess his family should probably be included since it's on a wedding document).  You will also find references in the New York papers social columns referring to him as a "graduate."  I think the answer is then same as today, don't always believe what's in newspapers.  

 

Edited September 17, 2018 by Vincennes

[Vincennes]

On ‎9‎/‎15‎/‎2018 at 9:24 PM, petermattson said:

I agree it would be hard for us to say whether that was a long drive back then (safe to say it would be a long drive NOW -- through midtown during rush hour). It may very well have been as simple as that's where the hot clubs were.

I'm trying to understand why it would matter where he cashed a check though. We don't know where his bank was and assuming the club dropped their checks and deposits every morning, I'm not sure about his money being floated (because I presume everyone would've had a little bit of float time back then without electronic transfers) but I'm open to the idea. Just need it to be explained a bit more.

This does lead me to an additional angle though. At that time, you could write checks everywhere (gas stations, diners, etc.) so what would he have needed cash for at 9 pm that night?

 Being old as dirt I can go back to when I started using checking accounts and the average time for a check to clear your account was two or three days after it was written and sometimes depending on accounting systems it could take as long as a week (or more).  You would even get to know which people who you wrote checks to were going to take longer than others.  So my guess here is that perhaps he had cashed at that restaurant or club before and sought it out because he liked the delay time they would take before getting it to his bank caused by their accounting system, the bank they used, whatever.  

I'm also pausing about "you could write checks everywhere."  I don't think it was the norm or socially acceptable back then to write checks at restaurants.  I can remember my father refusing to do that because "that's just not done" nor did I ever do it or anyone I was ever with do it.  I think the fact that he did that takes us to he definitely knew whoever cashed the check for him.  

So what could he have needed cash for at 9 pm ?  To me there are a couple of possibilities.  Either he could have needed it for the next few days, hotel bill, etc. OR  I think there is also the possibility the delay time wasn't the factor at all.  What happened was he got down to the Mafia playland and someone demanded he pay up NOW so they got a check or money out of him and then did away with him anyway because he'd drawn on "credit" for too long.  

[petermattson]

3 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

 Being old as dirt I can go back to when I started using checking accounts and the average time for a check to clear your account was two or three days after it was written and sometimes depending on accounting systems it could take as long as a week (or more).  You would even get to know which people who you wrote checks to were going to take longer than others.  So my guess here is that perhaps he had cashed at that restaurant or club before and sought it out because he liked the delay time they would take before getting it to his bank caused by their accounting system, the bank they used, whatever.  

I'm also pausing about "you could write checks everywhere."  I don't think it was the norm or socially acceptable back then to write checks at restaurants.  I can remember my father refusing to do that because "that's just not done" nor did I ever do it or anyone I was ever with do it.  I think the fact that he did that takes us to he definitely knew whoever cashed the check for him.  

So what could he have needed cash for at 9 pm ?  To me there are a couple of possibilities.  Either he could have needed it for the next few days, hotel bill, etc. OR  I think there is also the possibility the delay time wasn't the factor at all.  What happened was he got down to the Mafia playland and someone demanded he pay up NOW so they got a check or money out of him and then did away with him anyway because he'd drawn on "credit" for too long.  

I worked at a fast food pizza chain ( although it was a franchised store ) and we took checks up until about 2007 so I was thinking of it from that perspective. I also remember growing up that my parents would write checks just about everywhere. Perhaps not all sit-down restaurants but in my memory just about everybody took checks (thinking particularly of hotels - unless the Kenmore had decided Charles wasn't an honest broker - would have taken his checks) so I'm definitely with you on that he most likely needed the cash for a black market debt.

[Vincennes]

4 minutes ago, petermattson said:

I worked at a fast food pizza chain ( although it was a franchised store ) and we took checks up until about 2007 so I was thinking of it from that perspective. I also remember growing up that my parents would write checks just about everywhere. Perhaps not all sit-down restaurants but in my memory just about everybody took checks (thinking particularly of hotels - unless the Kenmore had decided Charles wasn't an honest broker - would have taken his checks) so I'm definitely with you on that he most likely needed the cash for a black market debt.

Old as dirt ….  I wasn't even thinking about 2000 and on, I was mainly talking 40, 50, 60s and was referring to sit down places.   

[Regi]

On 9/15/2018 at 7:44 PM, petermattson said:

It does seem we have some conflicting info here. This list indicates he was in the freshmen class, would-be graduates of 1926.

Where does it come from that "he left Yale after one year"?

[petermattson]

2 hours ago, Vincennes said:

 

I'm also pausing about "you could write checks everywhere."  I don't think it was the norm or socially acceptable back then to write checks at restaurants.  I can remember my father refusing to do that because "that's just not done" nor did I ever do it or anyone I was ever with do it.  I think the fact that he did that takes us to he definitely knew whoever cashed the check for him.  

 

Agreed. A proper investigation would've looked very closely at the "cashed a small check" detail. Questions such as,

--did he regularly cash checks here?

--were they of this or a similar amount?

--was there a particular day of the week (say, Tuesday) that he would look to cash checks?

--did he ever mention what his cash was for or did his checks ever bounce?

These are things I'd love to know but I doubt would be in a (potential) police report.

[petermattson]

Just now, Regi said:

Where does it come from that "he left Yale after one year"?

This was from his granddaughter. She didn't say where she knew this from but I would assume her father (who was only about 5 at the time of the disappearance and so would likely have heard this info from his mother or other family members). I have asked her to clarify.

[Regi]

4 hours ago, Vincennes said:

This guy got away with being a total scoundrel for quite a while.  The answer is simply that he lied (and I guess his family should probably be included since it's on a wedding document).  You will also find references in the New York papers social columns referring to him as a "graduate."  I think the answer is then same as today, don't always believe what's in newspapers. 

I didn't/don't view that info as the truth or a lie, just a discrepancy.

As for his character, I don't know anything about it. (I don't always believe info described as "legend". )

[petermattson]

I wanted to show a close-up view of the map with the most logical route Charles took that night. He was at a night club on E. 54th st., which means he was either already east of Lexington (where his hotel was) or he was just west of Lexington, in which case he had passed his own street in order to end up where he did. Assuming he was east of Lexington, it would make sense to turn down 2nd street (running south) because 1st and 3rd are one-way north. 

The blue line on the map represents his route down 2nd and his turn onto 37th (two-way) where he ran into the pillar of the el (yellow spot). You can see that the accident scene is just west of the Midtown tunnel Manhattan-side, which wasn't completed until 1940. However, the initial phase began in '36 and it's reasonable to expect they had begun to disrupt the roads in this area in preparation for the massive construction project. Perhaps this accounts for Charles's accident. Either way, you can see on the map that he *should* have been on his way towards Lexington, just one more block west, with the purple line assuming he was headed home (the top of the blue X represents the Kenmore).

I will speak for myself when I say that from the beginning I've been assuming he never made it back to his hotel but I think this (logical) route makes it clear he was headed in that direction and unless he got completely turned around and drove into the East River (possible), his last stop was in close proximity to home.

The reason I am disinclined to believe the suicide theory is that it's very difficult to hide your own body and since we have no indication his car was found, it's also difficult to hide a car when you're dead. I'm not completely dismissing the bottom-of-the-East-River idea, I just don't see it as the most logical given the (admittedly small amount of) facts we have.

[Vincennes]

2 hours ago, Regi said:

I didn't/don't view that info as the truth or a lie, just a discrepancy.

As for his character, I don't know anything about it. (I don't always believe info described as "legend". )

We did quite a bit of research back in the thread re. the fact that the college only shows him as a freshman.  Not only that but his granddaughter told me that her father, Charles' son, was the only one to graduate college and he did that with no help from the Hurds.  Sorry I can't show our conversation directly it was done in messenger.    

[Vincennes]

1 hour ago, petermattson said:

The reason I am disinclined to believe the suicide theory is that it's very difficult to hide your own body and since we have no indication his car was found, it's also difficult to hide a car when you're dead. I'm not completely dismissing the bottom-of-the-East-River idea, I just don't see it as the most logical given the (admittedly small amount of) facts we have.

 

I think they had not only cement shoes but had other creative ways in getting things gone.  Remember, Hoffa happened a whole heck of a lot later and they never have found a trace of him. 

It did just now occur to me though that I wonder if the car could have been disguised, another color, another city, did they have ways back then of tracing VIN numbers or changing them.  With the high crime rate during that time, I'm wondering why (at least I) have always assumed the car went into the river with him.  I think a red convertible which just happened to be the same model was probably parked at the same club the next week.  LOL  

 

 

[petermattson]

2 minutes ago, Vincennes said:

I think they had not only cement shoes but had other creative ways in getting things gone.  Remember, Hoffa happened a whole heck of a lot later and they never have found a trace of him. 

It did just now occur to me though that I wonder if the car could have been disguised, another color, another city, did they have ways back then of tracing VIN numbers or changing them.  With the high crime rate during that time, I'm wondering why (at least I) have always assumed the car went into the river with him.  I think a red convertible which just happened to be the same model was probably parked at the same club the next week.  LOL  

 

 

I was just having a very similar thought. Doesn't seem like it would take much to move a renovated car back in those days. 

Re-reading his granddaughter's emails, she mentioned that she thought when she was initially researching this (the '80s?) that his car had been found, with no sign of foul play but then she's never been able to find that info again. It would certainly go a long way to clearing this up if we knew.

[Regi]

16 hours ago, Vincennes said:

We did quite a bit of research back in the thread re. the fact that the college only shows him as a freshman. 

I don't know what you mean by "only" shows; do you mean as shown in school yearbooks subsequent to 1921/22?

Edited September 18, 2018 by Regi

[petermattson]

14 minutes ago, Regi said:

I don't know what you mean by "only" shows; do you mean as shown in school yearbooks subsequent to 1921/22?

The only time his name appears in a Yale list that shows up on Google is from his freshmen year. That, coupled with what his granddaughter said about only attending for one year has left us with a strong impression that he left after his first year at Yale.

[Regi]

1 hour ago, petermattson said:

The only time his name appears in a Yale list that shows up on Google is from his freshmen year.

Well, maybe that's the only time any of those other people's names show up on a google Yale list. (Just sayin'.)

Edit: I'll take it that the question I posed to Vin wasn't part of the research.

Edited September 18, 2018 by Regi