The Ten Cannots

[Michelle]

My thought experiment was to not think of it in isolated, small communities. But thanks for attempting to think about it.

Sorry, Leo...all I can think of are the many people who use, abuse and take things from people without ever planning on giving back in return. This would include the children, whose parents have made just a comfortable living, moving away from home. They will bleed their parents dry, having one crisis after the other until there is nothing left for them to take. Then when they are elderly and can't take care of themselves the children are nowhere to be found. There is no one to take care of them and the parents become wards of the state

I'll admit I am cynical....I think in a society where people will not even help a wounded person on the street or call 911 if they witness a crime it will only go downhill from here.

[Leonardo]

Sorry, Leo...all I can think of are the many people who use, abuse and take things from people without ever planning on giving back in return. This would include the children, whose parents have made just a comfortable living, moving away from home. They will bleed their parents dry, having one crisis after the other until there is nothing left for them to take. Then when they are elderly and can't take care of themselves the children are nowhere to be found. There is no one to take care of them and the parents become wards of the state

I'll admit I am cynical....I think in a society where people will not even help a wounded person on the street or call 911 if they witness a crime it will only go downhill from here.

I think most of us are cynical, Michelle. I certainly am. I am just surprised at how people cannot entertain a thought without feeling threatened by it, or thinking they have to believe it or are being asked to believe it.

Edited to add: Perhaps people are so cynical now, they are afraid to entertain thoughts that might induce even a spark of hope that something better might exist?

Edited August 28, 2013 by Leonardo

[F3SS]

No. My intention was to ask people to consider such a world, and see how many would actually make a valid attempt to do so.

No-one did. And I appreciate you say you did, but all you really did was to dot isolated, primitive villages all over the world. You never considered the infrastructure we have in place, and would want - in the main part - to keep.

But, the whole point of it was to see how willing people were to look outside their current world-view and, basically as evidenced by yourself and others, they are quite unwilling. I'm not sure if this is down to simple resistance to change, or if there are other factors in play such as a hypothetical addiction to money/currency.

There is a side note about how people are quite willing to talk about changing things when they feel it might benefit them - as the rest of this thread illustrates - but not when they are unsure.

Well since I'm the only one who attended your class today you should feel honored, not disgruntled.

There is a reason I dotted primitive little villages all over the world.

First off, you didn't set the rules of this experiment. You didn't say anything about wether bartering was an option and that we have all the infrastructure in place that we do now. Your question was wide open as I said before. I took it as envisioning an alternate world and not as this real world in an imaginary future.

Second, let's say we have that infrastructure. In a world without money, who maintains it? Who keeps the plumbing running? Who keeps the electricity running and up to code? Who fixes the roof leak? Who builds and operates machinery? Seriously, small homes are one thing but who maintains all the public works and city skyscrapers? Who drills for the oil needed to operate the machines needed and to produce electricity?

I said earlier that the capitalist system is what keeps all of these modern amenities in order. And it is truth. In this world without money you allow for us to keep these amenities. And that's fine for a while until the buildings are seized by those with the most weapons and that'll only last so long until everything dilapidates because nobody is trading anything to maintain this stuff. A world without money and with modern infrastructure is an oxymoron unless it is a world of slaves and slavers.

I don't have an addiction to money. I have an addiction to live well and comfortably and in this reality money is what's needed to make that come true.

Lastly, you haven't added anything but reprimanding lecture and vague questions. It is your turn to speak of this post monetary world. I think I've said all I can.

Edited August 28, 2013 by F3SS

[Leonardo]

Well since I'm the only one who attended your class today you should feel honored, not disgruntled.

There is a reason I dotted primitive little villages all over the world.

First off, you didn't set the rules of this experiment. You didn't say anything about wether bartering was an option and that we have all the infrastructure in place that we do now. Your question was wide open as I said before. I took it as envisioning an alternate world and not as this real world in an imaginary future.

Second, let's say we have that infrastructure. In a world without money, who maintains it? Who keeps the plumbing running? Who keeps the electricity running and up to code? Who fixes the roof leak? Who builds and operates machinery? Seriously, small homes are one thing but who maintains all the public works and city skyscrapers? Who drills for the oil needed to operate the machines needed and to produce electricity?

I said earlier that the capitalist system is what keeps all of these modern amenities in order. And it is truth. In this world without money you allow for us to keep these amenities. And that's fine for a while until the buildings are seized by those with the most weapons and that'll only last so long until everything dilapidates because nobody is trading anything to maintain this stuff. A world without money and modern infrastructure is an oxymoron unless it is a world of slaves and slavers.

I don't have an addiction to money. I have an addiction to live well and comfortably and in this reality money is what's needed to make that come true.

Lastly, you haven't added anything but reprimanding lecture and vague questions. It is your turn to speak of this post monetary world. I think I've said all I can.

Fair enough. I did not stipulate it was this world, as is simply without money, that was to be considered. I assumed that was reasonably obvious, but I shouldn't make assumptions. My mistake.

I won't return to trying this again, and won't present my thoughts on such a world, as I think the whole attempt has had a negative effect judging by some of the reactions here. As for reprimanding, I would suggest "matter-of-fact". I realise I don't write very colloquially - "matey" - but there is no intent of reprimand in my posts. I'm sorry if you felt there was, and apologise for giving that impression.

[F3SS]

Fair enough. I did not stipulate it was this world, as is simply without money, that was to be considered. I assumed that was reasonably obvious, but I shouldn't make assumptions. My mistake.

I won't return to trying this again, and won't present my thoughts on such a world, as I think the whole attempt has had a negative effect judging by some of the reactions here. As for reprimanding, I would suggest "matter-of-fact". I realise I don't write very colloquially - "matey" - but there is no intent of reprimand in my posts. I'm sorry if you felt there was, and apologise for giving that impression.

Assumptions and the Internet rarely go well.

I don't know why you won't participate in your own experiment. The negativity only came about because of confusion. Me suggesting such a thing has a slim chance of becoming a reality isn't negative either. It's merely an opinion or a disagreement. That's going to happen on a discussion board. Apology accepted.

[MiskatonicGrad]

for all of you talking about socialist experiments (communes) I suggest you look up Robert Owen and the Harmony, Indiana community rather interesting.

[spacecowboy342]

Umm.. we have free education here in the US, at least through grade 12. Now, IMO, it was much better before the federal government decided to get involved, but it is still free.

Your view smacks of socialism. At least Darwinism is a widely accepted scientific theory. Socialism is an economic theory that the jury is still very much out on. The returns are looking more and more negative as socialist country after socialist country realize they that you do indeed run out of other peoples money eventually.

Perhaps my ideas are socialism. If keeping people fed housed and healthy is socialism, I fail to see the harm. Social Darwinism has nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution but was Hitler's justification for his master race theory and I want no part of it

[F3SS]

Perhaps my ideas are socialism. If keeping people fed housed and healthy is socialism, I fail to see the harm. Social Darwinism has nothing to do with Darwin's theory of evolution but was Hitler's justification for his master race theory and I want no part of it

Ok fine. I'm going to quit my job and encourage all I know to do the same. So long as you are out there working to pay for it, why should I? That is socialism.

What we are is a wealthy country who can afford to lend those who are downtrodden a helping hand. What has gone wrong with US is people started to realize that if they say just the right things and fill out an application just the right way that they could get in on the action and I don't mean on the helping side. Furthermore our government has realized that if they just go lax on the rules and give people stuff with little accountability for their worthiness of these things that they can get the takers to keep voting them in power.

Our system of understandable generosity has devolved into a pseudo-socialist type of epidemic rampant with waste, fraud and lack of accountability. If you think that's bad you should imagine the chaos that would ensue once the entire nation has the absolute right to the fruits of anothers labor whether they need help or not because socialism isn't about who needs what. It is about everybody enjoying equal opportunities no matter how hard they try. Don't mistake that for the American mantra of equal opportunity for all. It is different. The American version means all the opportunities are there if you seek them out yourself. The socialist equality is all the opportunities are there to be given and those opportunities become more and more dismal as time goes by until you run out of everybody else's money, there are no scraps left at the table and death and revolt ensues.

Work hard, don't take advantage of other people's hard work and if you absolutely must take advantage be humble about it and don't complain about how much you're given.

And Hitler was delusional. He took social Darwinism and twisted it into a crazy guys version. Enough with the whiny liberalisms. Nobody wants anyone to starve and die. We just want to teach personal responsibility. Nobody ever learns that when all their needs are given to them.

Edited August 28, 2013 by F3SS

[spacecowboy342]

Ok fine. I'm going to quit my job and encourage all I know to do the same. So long as you are out there working to pay for it, why should I? That is socialism.

What we are is a wealthy country who can afford to lend those who are downtrodden a helping hand. What has gone wrong with US is people started to realize that if they say just the right things and fill out an application just the right way that they could get in on the action and I don't mean on the helping side. Furthermore our government has realized that if they just go lax on the rules and give people stuff with little accountability for their worthiness of these things that they can get the takers to keep voting them in power.

Our system of understandable generosity has devolved into a pseudo-socialist type of epidemic rampant with waste, fraud and lack of accountability. If you think that's bad you should imagine the chaos that would ensue once the entire nation has the absolute right to the fruits of anothers labor whether they need help or not because socialism isn't about who needs what. It is about everybody enjoying equal opportunities no matter how hard they try. Don't mistake that for the American mantra of equal opportunity for all. It is different. The American version means all the opportunities are there if you seek them out yourself. The socialist equality is all the opportunities are there to be given and those opportunities become more and more dismal as time goes by until you run out of everybody else's money, there are no scraps left at the table and death and revolt ensues.

Work hard, don't take advantage of other people's hard work and if you absolutely must take advantage be humble about it and don't complain about how much you're given.

And Hitler was delusional. He took social Darwinism and twisted it into a crazy guys version. Enough with the whiny liberalisms. Nobody wants anyone to starve and die. We just want to teach personal responsibility. Nobody ever learns that when all their needs are given to them.

Well thank you for your lesson in personal responsibility.Yes Hitler was delusional and so is anyone else who follows social Darwinism

[F3SS]

Anytime.

[RavenHawk]

Perhaps my ideas are socialism. If keeping people fed housed and healthy is socialism, I fail to see the harm.

Obviously. This is not about feeding the people, it’s about slavery. About buying and selling flesh. Any time you give up your right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, you become indentured to the government or the entity offering hope. I’d rather die starving and still an individual than a kept person that becomes somebody’s asset. I’m not talking about someone offering a helping hand but the long drawn process of slow death to one’s dignity in a Socialist state. Socialism is the Maximum Entrophy of Freedom

[spacecowboy342]

Obviously. This is not about feeding the people, it's about slavery. About buying and selling flesh. Any time you give up your right to Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness, you become indentured to the government or the entity offering hope. I'd rather die starving and still an individual than a kept person that becomes somebody's asset. I'm not talking about someone offering a helping hand but the long drawn process of slow death to one's dignity in a Socialist state. Socialism is the Maximum Entrophy of Freedom

It's easy to say you'd rather die starving. Have you ever went hungry? For how long? Give people a choice between starving and stealing which do you think they are likely to choose?All that money you save from food programs will be spent on even more prisons and we already jail more people than Russia and China combined, Land of the free my (expletive deleted)

[Jeremiah65]

It's easy to say you'd rather die starving. Have you ever went hungry? For how long? Give people a choice between starving and stealing which do you think they are likely to choose?All that money you save from food programs will be spent on even more prisons and we already jail more people than Russia and China combined, Land of the free my (expletive deleted)

That is actually a pretty good argument....I am impressed.

I am against it cause I think true freedom actually addresses all of those things...but I gotta tip my hat.

It's a trap situation....the GOV stops you from starting a business through taxation, registration and or fees.....they stop you from being a door to door masseuse.....or a prostitute.....they stop you from selling weed to a willing buyer....they then tell you that you have to pay these taxes and healthcare costs, or else.....then they offer "we can feed and shelter you if you do exactly what we say".....

This IS slavery....just twisted into a new package....

Edited August 29, 2013 by Jeremiah65

[spacecowboy342]

That is actually a pretty good argument....I am impressed.

I am against it cause I think true freedom actually addresses all of those things...but I gotta tip my hat.

It's a trap situation....the GOV stops you from starting a business through taxation, registration and or fees.....they stop you from being a door to door masseuse.....or a prostitute.....they stop you from selling weed to a willing buyer....they then tell you that you have to pay these taxes and healthcare costs, or else.....then they offer "we can feed and shelter you if you do exactly what we say".....

This IS slavery....just twisted into a new package....

I am not entirely opposed to your ideas. Everyone accuses me of wanting a socialist state and that is not true, I love freedom as much as anyone. But how does old ladies having to choose between buying food and buying medicine make anyone any more free? Cut spending cut taxes cut defense I say great. But America is the richest country in the world and noone should have to go without while others live like feudal lords. Free health care=slavery? Really?I think not. Don't give out free stuff. Initiate work programs like Rooseveldt's New Deal in the thirty's and let people earn their daily bread. I'm not suggesting giving up the bill of rights. I would die first. That is what makes us free not unrestricted capitalism no matter what you all think. No socialism?Fine. How about a kinder gentler capitalism where no one does without because of other's unrestricted greed. Is there truly no middle ground here?

[Jeremiah65]

Wow....you make a point that is hard to argue with and still be a "Christ-like" christian...which is why it will never happen. Most "Christians" are not very "Christ-like" in their financial and political views....but I get what you are saying...and you know what?...I don't have an answer for that.

I think real and true freedom addresses most of our problems....but I cannot tell you a good plan for the elderly widow whose bread winning husband has passed away with little or no death insurance benefits....

"Oh that was his fault, he should have prepared"...Is true, but it does not answer the problem....so just let the old lady starve on the streets?

I can see your heart and I get it....there is no good answer for this. Had we been truly free, maybe he would have stocked away more money or been able to afford life insurance....but that does not fix "the now"....

Good argument and I am interested what the much more political figures think on this....I suffer this problem of being able to see both sides of the coin and I have to admit, my ideas do not adress this particular situation....kudos for a good argument....

[RavenHawk]

It's easy to say you'd rather die starving.

Yes it does. It depends on one’s convictions and one’s trust in how things work.

Have you ever went hungry? For how long?

Yes, I have but I don’t think for how long matters. Hunger is a great motivator. When I was laid off, I laid around waiting for the system to take care of me. I reneged on my responsibility. When I was down to the last buck in my pocket and I hadn’t eaten in a couple of days, instead of remaining the victim waiting for a job in my field. There were none to be found. I went out and got anything (any menial task) so that I could eat. I moved into a condemned shack. I told the Universe that I was ready for the next stage in my life. Before long, jobs opened up because I listened to the Universe and acted on my GOD given Rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I pulled myself up. That may sound corny to those that are not aware, but the point is, is that you control your destiny. If you wait for the government, you relinquish that control and opportunities do not open up. Opportunity needs to be ceased; it never comes to you on a silver platter.

Give people a choice between starving and stealing which do you think they are likely to choose?

There’s another choice and as I said before, you take charge of your own life and show the Universe that you are ready for more responsibility. It’s amazing what opens up when you do that. But you have to let go of your fear first.

All that money you save from food programs will be spent on even more prisons and we already jail more people than Russia and China combined, Land of the free my (expletive deleted)

The jails are full of those that have surrendered their free will and depend on the government for their subsistence. And the government is slowly leading more and more down that path.

[spacecowboy342]

Yes it does. It depends on one's convictions and one's trust in how things work.

Yes, I have but I don't think for how long matters. Hunger is a great motivator. When I was laid off, I laid around waiting for the system to take care of me. I reneged on my responsibility. When I was down to the last buck in my pocket and I hadn't eaten in a couple of days, instead of remaining the victim waiting for a job in my field. There were none to be found. I went out and got anything (any menial task) so that I could eat. I moved into a condemned shack. I told the Universe that I was ready for the next stage in my life. Before long, jobs opened up because I listened to the Universe and acted on my GOD given Rights of Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Happiness. I pulled myself up. That may sound corny to those that are not aware, but the point is, is that you control your destiny. If you wait for the government, you relinquish that control and opportunities do not open up. Opportunity needs to be ceased; it never comes to you on a silver platter.

There's another choice and as I said before, you take charge of your own life and show the Universe that you are ready for more responsibility. It's amazing what opens up when you do that. But you have to let go of your fear first.

The jails are full of those that have surrendered their free will and depend on the government for their subsistence. And the government is slowly leading more and more down that path.

So anyone who is unsuccessful has surrendered control? There is no such thing as circumstances beyond your control? I agree many could do more for themselves. As I said before I have never been on welfare though I have somtimes had to do jobs I didn't really want to do but some are in situations that make things more difficult than others. The idea(and I'm not saying you subscribe to it but some do) that everyone who is getting gov't help is just a lazy bum is BS at least from what I have observed.Some may be but should this be a death sentence? The jails are also full of people who made mistakes out of desperation. Is compassion for them wrong? What is your objection to helping those who truly need help, i.e. the elderly and the sick and lame, and providing job training for those who could work but lack the skills? And for providing health care for everyone, even the lazy?

[Yamato]

So anyone who is unsuccessful has surrendered control? There is no such thing as circumstances beyond your control? I agree many could do more for themselves. As I said before I have never been on welfare though I have somtimes had to do jobs I didn't really want to do but some are in situations that make things more difficult than others. The idea(and I'm not saying you subscribe to it but some do) that everyone who is getting gov't help is just a lazy bum is BS at least from what I have observed.Some may be but should this be a death sentence? The jails are also full of people who made mistakes out of desperation. Is compassion for them wrong? What is your objection to helping those who truly need help, i.e. the elderly and the sick and lame, and providing job training for those who could work but lack the skills? And for providing health care for everyone, even the lazy?

Forgiveness used to be a virtue. Then Christians stopped handing out second chances as instructed, and eventually people started asking: Christianity, what is it good for?

Oh and the role of government to Ravenhawk has no room for compassion. Its most important role in the world today is minding the clash of civilizations, and the war against radical Islam. Global sized bureaucracies are required. Hand over your food stamps. There's a war to wage.

Edited August 29, 2013 by Yamato

[spacecowboy342]

Forgiveness used to be a virtue. Then Christians stopped handing out second chances as instructed, and eventually people started asking: Christianity, what is it good for?

Oh and the role of government to Ravenhawk has no room for compassion. Its most important role in the world today is minding the clash of civilizations, and the war against radical Islam. Global sized bureaucracies are required. Hand over your food stamps. There's a war to wage.

Well I'm no Christian but when I see someone stumble I feel compelled to help them up. This is a hard discussion for me. I was taught from childhood to hate commies and that free enterprise was synonymous with freedom. But when I see people manipulate the system to maintain their wealth and power while those who have nothing are brushed aside as worthless and lazy I think there must be a better way. And for this I am lumped together with Stalin and Mao who cared nothing for people but only their own power and seem more like those who label me

[F3SS]

Dude all you've done is take everything that isn't in total agreeance with you and come back with quips like 'oh, so let them starve', 'just let them die, right', 'white mans greed', 'your nazi views', 'you just want to tear down all the help programs' and a whole bunch of other typically predictable crap.

And you complain about labels when all you do is label everyone else cold, heartless, greedy, racist, uncompassionate, self absorbed. The only label you've been given is socialist which you agreed on and disagreed on within a matter of two or three posts. But just agree with it because that's what you are when you want so many things to be free for some at the cost of others simply because some have things and some don't.

To each according to his needs, from each according to his means. Do you not see the incentive to succeed crushed by that motto?

[spartan max2]

When limit government people talk about getting rid of certain social programs, or lowering taxes and cutting spending.

It is not from lack of compassion it is from the belief that the free market helps the poor and all of society more then trying to tax everyone to create social programs.

Different philosophy's to solve the same problems.

"Capitalism take more people out of poverty then aid"

-Bono

[Michelle]

What is your objection to helping those who truly need help, i.e. the elderly and the sick and lame, and providing job training for those who could work but lack the skills?

This is where you loose all credibility. No one, even the heartless Republicans, say they don't think people should be helped in their time of need. What they object to is "lifers". The people who proliferate the welfare lifestyle that generations have fallen into.

I speak from experience...we own a welding business. My husband has the biggest heart and has taken in many young people to help them learn a useful, very lucrative trade, for free while being paid for minimal tasks.. The majority find that the work is too difficult and don't pursue it. There have been four girls who wanted to learn how to weld strictly for the artistic aspect. They are now doing very well

I admit I have become jaded. Once you have tried to mentor so many that have p***ed away an opportunity to get ahead you get like that.

[Jeremiah65]

I said before that I do not have all the answers and that there is going to be circumstances that pop up that have to be handled individually.

I still believe that true freedom holds all the answers....just let people do what they need to do. Don't call their trade illegal, don't tax them to death, don't require huge costs to get started and people can and will find a way.

We see sad pictures of suffering in places in Africa....why is that?....mainly...because their GOV is corrupt. If they could just go out and dig some dirt and sell the diamonds they find...this would not be the case...but they can't.

Corruption and over control is the heart of the problem.

Those that are in the drivers seat like being there and don't want to hand it over....those that have money are afraid that they might lose it unless they lobby the GOV to make competition impossible...stop and think for a minute. There are certain things people could do for themselves...but amazingly...their are laws saying they cannot....it's all about reducing competition...a captive market is everyone's dream....

Corruption....that is the problem....and freedom is the answer.... to nearly all our woes...

In a free world, people have more money in their pocket and feel a LOT more charitable....No one would starve in a truly free society where people are in charge of their own fate...."I choose to take some of my "extra money" and give it to that guy"....but we don't get to do that....the GOV takes it by force and then wastes most of it....

Edited August 30, 2013 by Jeremiah65

[spacecowboy342]

Dude all you've done is take everything that isn't in total agreeance with you and come back with quips like 'oh, so let them starve', 'just let them die, right', 'white mans greed', 'your nazi views', 'you just want to tear down all the help programs' and a whole bunch of other typically predictable crap.

And you complain about labels when all you do is label everyone else cold, heartless, greedy, racist, uncompassionate, self absorbed. The only label you've been given is socialist which you agreed on and disagreed on within a matter of two or three posts. But just agree with it because that's what you are when you want so many things to be free for some at the cost of others simply because some have things and some don't.

To each according to his needs, from each according to his means. Do you not see the incentive to succeed crushed by that motto?

I don't think at all that is what I have said, but merely that it is a crime in the richest country in the world children go hungry and elderly people do without medicine but you people will twist that into some communist ideology to justify your culture of greed. have fun

[Yamato]

Well I'm no Christian but when I see someone stumble I feel compelled to help them up. This is a hard discussion for me. I was taught from childhood to hate commies and that free enterprise was synonymous with freedom. But when I see people manipulate the system to maintain their wealth and power while those who have nothing are brushed aside as worthless and lazy I think there must be a better way. And for this I am lumped together with Stalin and Mao who cared nothing for people but only their own power and seem more like those who label me

That sounds reasonable but you might also be painting an unfair picture of free enterprise. The free market is all of us. Whatever you choose to do with your freedom is part of it. The opinions you're expressing here are part of it. Maybe starting a charity or doing charitable work for a cause you believe in would put action to your sentiments. It doesn't matter what people call you. It doesn't matter what people say. While they're just saying, you'll be doing. Your actions don't have to be filtered through the bogus left-right paradigm or by politics. Don't be embittered by groupthink or let labels hold sway over you. Free yourself from all the political traps people fall into. Grow a garden and help feed your community. Save the whales, or save those snails. It doesn't matter what you do. If we drive ourselves with passion and follow our own hearts, we'll want some recognition and we'll deserve it too.

Edited August 30, 2013 by Yamato