Why Was I Born?

[Frank Merton]

If there is a universal consciousness, I have to wonder how it maintains internal communication. Information cannot be moved faster than the speed of light, which implies it would take billions of years for this universal consciousness to have a single thought.

I suspect that sort of argument won't deter those determined to have their fantasy, as they will just create some ad hoc way around physics.

[pallidin]

Why was I born, and why now and not at some other time?

No-one know's. You seem to be a complete enigma.

[pallidin]

However, reliable sources inform me that you are here, at this time, to be my faithful servant, working hard and giving me all your money.

Message me for details on where to send me your money.

[lightly]

If there is a universal consciousness, I have to wonder how it maintains internal communication. Information cannot be moved faster than the speed of light, which implies it would take billions of years for this universal consciousness to have a single thought.

I suspect that sort of argument won't deter those determined to have their fantasy, as they will just create some ad hoc way around physics.

Right.. my fantasy is of a consciousness that is not bound by physics .. it's just what i believe. If i think about WHY i am me, here, now, it eludes me. But i FEEL that i belong. I guess i'm assigning some spiritual cause to the physical realm. Bad science i know.. but not terribly awkward philosophy?

[Frank Merton]

Religion or speculation. Philosophy requires rational approaches.

[pallidin]

Don't think too much about "Time", it can make you go crazy.

Past. Present, Future... or an all-encompassing NOW.

Elements of the paranormal, such as so-called precognition and such, seems to demand an eternal NOW that is dimensionally wrapped in the past, present and future as some type of immutable ONE.

Again, don't think too much on this as it can drive you crazy. I know, it made me crazy.

>>> pallidin reaches for another beer <<<

[onereaderone]

I have not noticed a purpose in this sense either.

For arguments sake, let's say humans have existed on earth for a million years. During those first million years I do not exist, then all of a sudden I (my consciousness of myself) pop into existence for my lifetime, then for the next trillions of years (or for an infinite number of ears) I do not exist.

How probable or improbable is the phenomenon of my existence? In one sense, the probability is 100%. But in another sense, it seems to me all this could have happened without me becoming existant at all. Looking at it this way, the probability of my existence is zero, or a tiny fraction of any probability. This could be said for all of us.

I can understand why some consider consciousness to be a universal phenomenon separate from the brain. This makes it easier to understand why we exist as personal consciousness's. I suppose it was just our turn. I don't know if this scenario is true or not. I tend to think it is not. This is my opinion, and I think it comes down to one's opinion.

In any case, I don't think there is an absolute answer to this question. It's just something to wonder about.

.

you have it right... untill you make one tiny mistake that makes it all wrong.

that one tiny mistake is eternity.

" the probability of my existence is zero, or a tiny fraction of any probability. This could be said for all of us."

when you should have said ,

" the probability of my existence is zero, or a tiny fraction of eternity. This could be said for all of us."

the simple answer is that you are a small fraction of an infinite .

as a small fraction of any infinite... you are infinite .

because of the law of squares , 13 billion years is a fraction of the whole of a very very large number of years ....

which ends in a single point in space.... a gravity well that includes all mass .... that winks out when time ends....

with in the void , with in the hollow emptyness of the infinites , in the thundering lonlyness of the infinites, the screaming vastness of the void ... a single point of distinction... how it is diffrent from every other point in the void is how its distinction is a point .

its change is its relationship to eternity.

its size is its relationship to infinity .

and the big bang happens again as it has an eternity of times before .

and just a moment after the bang , when the microwave radiation has not even stilled, and the galaxys and universals are still with in sight of each other... only a moment after it all comes into being...

there are the aware ones.

tiny souls that are aware for only a wink , a blink , a breath and the whole of them are gone .

they never leave their tiny world , they never go beyond their small and unremarkable solar system.

but pause a moment and wonder at these aware ones.

we among to great voices of dimensions here and beyond... we come into being ... and live for ever...

we among the mind song singers , hold as truth that with great age comes great knowledge.

yet here are these aware ones... tiny in every measure... and they humble the mighty , thunder the very heavens , awe the greatest souls the cosmos have ever known...

for these aware ones... are born , live, and end .... in only 75 to 100 years ... and in this breif moment... mozart , leonardo , sun tzu , hertz , science , music , mathmatics , washington , jefferson , robert e lee ... jazz , rock n roll ...

... why were you born? ... you are a greatness that humbles the greatest beings of other dimensions.

they are awe struck at your most common moment... you personaly .... god makes only one of you in all of time and in all of space ... you are singularly unique and special .

not for what you do... but for who you are.

you have a unique moment in time... and a unique place in space... and when that window opens ... you can be...

as a tiny fraction of eternity.... you are eternal .

as a tiny fraction of infinity.... you are infinite .

as a tiny fraction of god... you define order.

[lightly]

Religion or speculation. Philosophy requires rational approaches.

Ok, yup, speculation . Spirituality plays a role in many Philosophies though?

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/294716/irrationalism

irrationalism, 19th- and early 20th-century philosophical movement that claimed to enrich the apprehension of human life by expanding it beyond the rational to its fuller dimensions. Rooted either in metaphysics or in an awareness of the uniqueness of human experience, irrationalism stressed the dimensions of instinct, feeling, and will as over and against reason.

[Frank Merton]

I think of philosophy as pursuing the answer to questions science is not yet and may never be able to tackle by using deduction and reasoning. I don't see it as having no anchor -- otherwise the enterprise would be empty. Different philosophers may have different ideas, but they have a common rationality. The 20th century did largely abandon that view, but it was as I said sterile and I think has come back to it.

[StarMountainKid]

For me, all the above posts are interesting. I'm thinking about the butterfly effect and the anthropic principle, in the sense that I'm wondering what and how large a change in the evolution of the universe since the big bang would have had to happen for me not to be born as my personal consciousness.

Did all the complexity of the evolution of the universe work out just right for me (and for you)? Evidently. At any early time in the universe, if all the events occurring could be known, could the future existence of me or you be predicted?

[spacecowboy342]

As to that I don't think so.Quantum mechanics would seem to make things pretty non-deterministic and therefore unpredictable.We can't even predict where an electron will be at any one time and only give a probability of it being in any possible place until we actually observe it

[StarMountainKid]

s to that I don't think so.Quantum mechanics would seem to make things pretty non-deterministic and therefore unpredictable.We can't even predict where an electron will be at any one time and only give a probability of it being in any possible place until we actually observe it

This is true, but on larger scales quantum deterministic probabilities do exist. For instance, in the double slit experiment we cannot determine where any particular photon will strike the target, but we can predict the distribution of all the photons.

Perhaps we can ignore each separate quantum mechanical event and yet predict the overall result. I'm wondering, in this sense, if we could rewind history and start the big bang again, would the universe evolve in the same way?

Would you and I still be here or would we not? In the original big bang, are our existences predetermined at that instant? Or, are we a result of random, unpredictable quantum events?

Since we do exist, I think one could say our existences were predetermined at the BB, since we do exist. If our existences are the result of random events, it seems to me the probability of our existences would be some random fraction of 100%, and therefore the probability would be we wouldn't exist.

[spacecowboy342]

Definitely an interesting question and one I certainly don't have the answer to.Personally I don't think the future is written in advance and random chance and personal choice effect outcomes so rewinding the clock would mean all bets were off and it could turn out the same or be completely different but I base that only on feeling alone and I might change my mind if I give it more thought.

[Asadora]

I'm just pointing out that this thread started on my birthday (Aug 27th). Unfortunately, I just now noticed that.

I have my own reasonable assumptions as to why I was born; however, it was my mother who determined -when- I was born as she had me induced on the 27th of August, instead of waiting for me to be born on my actual due date which was Labor day.

Why did she do this? She's told me her reasons and I can understand those reasons.

When I think about the OP's question, it opens my mind to a plethora of ideas, wonderments and deductions. I realise that others have their own mental or spiritual spin on it and I think it's great learning of how others think of the question poised.

For me, it's like holding a bunch of seeds in one's palm and just throwing them out into the wind, wherever they may be sewn is random, yet it is a purposeful random. Some seeds may take to the soil and root; however some seeds may be unable to take to the soil and fail to grow.

When a seed does take to soil, it is something to celebrate.

We all want to think we are individually special and can offer a greatness to the world, this is why we may question as to why we were born, why we are who we have become - this is the human condition that makes us strive to find answers to the questions to which have not been answered and may very well be never be answered. Yet we continue to ask these questions even knowing the answers may -never- come. And you know what? I think that in itself is pretty awesome, sometimes a bit delusional; however awesome nonetheless.

“The two most important days in your life are the day you are born and the day you find out why.”

― Mark Twain

"Why you are born and why you are living depend entirely on what you are getting out of this world and what you are giving to it. I cannot prove that this is a balance of mathematical perfection, but my own observation of life leads me to the conclusion that there is a very real relationship, both quantitatively and qualitatively, between what you contribute and what you get out of this world."

-- Oscar Hammerstein II

"Why fit in, when you were born to stand out? " -- Dr. Seuss

Kind Regards

[onereaderone]

it is well with in the ablity of most people to predict the orbit of the moon , or planets .

navigation of the oceans was done in the near past with a clock and a device to measure with great skill the angle above the horizon ... any body in the sky .

history is more easily understood when you see the repeating patterns that are in meny ways predictable in the future , when the forces that shape history are understood .

form follows function , function is shaped by needs , needs are themselves force driven . design is evolutionary and in meny ways predictable of patterns .

any persons life is shaped by the technology of the times they live in. who they are is as much when they live as who is around them or the land below their feet .

nature and nurture questions either one does not answer the greater questions of being... but the life of the body and the changes the mind feels and records ...is nearly always shaped by the soul that holds that middle ground between the body and the mind .

who you are is more than the history your mind hold , or the body that transports you across the ground .

in the now moment , you effect and are effected... how you see life , who you are as a being shapes that middle ground between what your mind feels and sees, the smells and tastes... and what your body does with that information .

but the concept that everything repeats perfectly from the moment of the big bang to this now moment ... is not hard to show . to the degree that it repeats with precsion , is the degree that you are a form /function of a grand order of cycles ... where you personaly are important ... and have a task that requires your act in the drama that is retold eternaly

[The Id3al Experience]

Since we do exist, I think one could say our existences were predetermined at the BB, since we do exist. If our existences are the result of random events, it seems to me the probability of our existences would be some random fraction of 100%, and therefore the probability would be we wouldn't exist.

anthropic principle comes to mind

[StarMountainKid]

anthropic principle comes to mind

I wonder if the anthropic principle could be narrowed down to the individual. Take you, for example. Since you were born, the universe must have evolved as it did for you to be born. If you had not been born, the universe would have had to evolve differently.

One hitch in this idea is, at what moment in history was your birth determined? If it was a random event, how the universe evolved wold not be a cause for your birth. Yet, random events in a sense could be understood as determined, as all of the random events leading to your birth is like another anthropic principle.

If you hadn't been born, these events would not have happened, so in a way, your birth determined these events. Since you were born, these events could not have happened differently.

This is sort of like retro-causality. The present influencing the past. This is where the anthropic principle gets weird, I think. The past determines the present, but also the present determines the past.

[The Id3al Experience]

I wonder if the anthropic principle could be narrowed down to the individual. Take you, for example. Since you were born, the universe must have evolved as it did for you to be born. If you had not been born, the universe would have had to evolve differently.

One hitch in this idea is, at what moment in history was your birth determined? If it was a random event, how the universe evolved wold not be a cause for your birth. Yet, random events in a sense could be understood as determined, as all of the random events leading to your birth is like another anthropic principle.

If you hadn't been born, these events would not have happened, so in a way, your birth determined these events. Since you were born, these events could not have happened differently.

This is sort of like retro-causality. The present influencing the past. This is where the anthropic principle gets weird, I think. The past determines the present, but also the present determines the past.

So what you are saying fundamently is that there is, everything in the universe was set at the moment of the BB?. Therefore removing any Freewill be assume to have?

I have thought deeply on this matter myself. I came to the conclusion that: If we can measure we can predict. Now imagine a super computer capiable of caluclation EVERY SINGLE mathatical Physics equation at any given moment. This computer would predict with a 100% certainty the outcome.

For me personally this is a very troubling thought. SO I looked deeper and deeper, until I went crazy. Despite the soild evidence above elimanating freewill, I still beleive there is something we are missing. This I have found consiousness, the boat that connects the material world with potiental of infinite possible information. Our brain works like a compute filtering all information, maybe we are turned to only reecieved what we determine as causality.

To many holes in all the hyposises in regards to this. This is my thoughts.

Regards,

[spacecowboy342]

Free will is an illusion. We are at best semi autonomous biological machines ruled mostly by biological imperatives handed down from our evolutionary ancestor. Quantum uncertainty says we cannot calculate the behavior of matter and energy at it's most basic level

[Frank Merton]

We are told freewill is an illusion, but illusions must have an origin -- something the illusion derives from. The fact is that freewill's existence is the biggest obstacle in the way of mechanistic determinism, a rather old-fashioned idea that has a certain currency.

It is necessary to assert that it is an illusion, but I see no reason to doubt its reality and we can introspectively test it. To be sure we have instincts and emotions, but we can often override them.

[spacecowboy342]

We are told freewill is an illusion, but illusions must have an origin -- something the illusion derives from. The fact is that freewill's existence is the biggest obstacle in the way of mechanistic determinism, a rather old-fashioned idea that has a certain currency.

It is necessary to assert that it is an illusion, but I see no reason to doubt its reality and we can introspectively test it. To be sure we have instincts and emotions, but we can often override them.

This is why I say we are semiautonomous.We do at least in my view, have the ability to overide our instincts more than any other animal on the planet.Our actions are determined by our neural net which is the seat of our consciousness. The results of those actions however can change our neural net.This is how I view learning. I don't claim this is a proven idea but it is what makes sense to me

[Frank Merton]

Saying we have free will and saying we don't have it both lead to logical or philosophical quandaries. I suppose that is why the question is still in the air, unresolved. It's just that I react when I hear it is an illusion, as that I don't think is at all accurate.

[spacecowboy342]

Saying we have free will and saying we don't have it both lead to logical or philosophical quandaries. I suppose that is why the question is still in the air, unresolved. It's just that I react when I hear it is an illusion, as that I don't think is at all accurate.

There are many views on this and I agree all have problems explaining certain aspects of our lives. I favor the view I have expressed as I think it answers questions best but I can understand why some would disagree

[StarMountainKid]

If we can measure we can predict. Now imagine a super computer capiable of caluclation EVERY SINGLE mathatical Physics equation at any given moment. This computer would predict with a 100% certainty the outcome.

I'm not sure even your perfect computer could predict 100%. It would have to predict human behavior. Let's say we have ten people in a room. The computer would have to predict every person's behavior and every influence that behavior had on every other person, which would influence the behavior of every person, etc.

The computer would have to monitor every neuron in every person's brain. Do neurons fire due to causality, one neuron fires in a definite way because some other neuron fired? Or, do neurons occasionally fire spontaneously without a prior cause?

Where do ideas come from? What is intuition? Our behavior is largely due to the operation of our subconscious mind. Are all the motivations that cause our behavior, thoughts, imagination, creativity and intuitiveness mechanistic in origin? Do non-causal spontaneity and random neurological events never occur?

Is the brain a Newtonian clockwork machine, or is there something about its organization and operation that is unpredictable even in principle?

Even if the unpredictable part may be 1 - 10% of brain function, I think that would be enough so that your computer's predictions would never be 100% accurate.

If we can measure we can predict.

And, what about the measurement problem? Does the very act of measurement change that which is measured?

Edited September 10, 2013 by StarMountainKid

[Frank Merton]

There are a lot of aspects of mind that brain science (neurology is it?) has not even begun to resolve. They can tell us how a signal from the optic nerve is processed and where in the brain this happens and what neurochemicals are involved, but does that explain the experience of vision?