Ancient Aliens

[Oniomancer]

You have to understand what a seed is, how plants grow, that they propogate only their kind,

that it is good for food, that they need sun and water, that they grow best in specific soils that

vary from species to species, that you can domesticate it, that it won't be stolen by lazy people

or animals, etc, etc, etc.

The first four only require simple observation. Domestication is as simple as preferential selection of species and varieties over time. Plants that don't respond well to domestication are automatically deselected and don't enter into cultivation. Even a caveman could do it.

[cladking]

The first four only require simple observation. Domestication is as simple as preferential selection of species and varieties over time. Plants that don't respond well to domestication are automatically deselected and don't enter into cultivation. Even a caveman could do it.

There's an enormous difference between just looking and scientific observation. Birds look

but they don't necessarily plant their favorite foods because they lack the understanding. They

lack the ability to observe that agriculture is even possible. The ability to observe is related

to metaphysics. It's not necessarily complex but it is founded on premises and definitions and

these must be understandable to the species/ individual.

Yes, there is always trial and error associated with technological improvement but this can't

happen outside of theory.

[Piney]

Selective breeding is not a hard concept to grasp. But it is "trial and error" and to plant seeds from bigger and more productive plants is just common sense.

[spacecowboy342]

There's an enormous difference between just looking and scientific observation. Birds look

but they don't necessarily plant their favorite foods because they lack the understanding. They

lack the ability to observe that agriculture is even possible. The ability to observe is related

to metaphysics. It's not necessarily complex but it is founded on premises and definitions and

these must be understandable to the species/ individual.

Yes, there is always trial and error associated with technological improvement but this can't

happen outside of theory.

I'm pretty sure that even the most backward humans could do a bit better to birds. People learned to grow grain because they wanted beer.

[stereologist]

God created the universe billions of years ago and created the earth 6200 years ago in seven days.

Obviously, conflicting tenets can't be held by sane people. The erath can't be both billions of years old and 6200 years.

Thus you agree with me that your original claim was wrong. You claimed that "but any fact can be expressed within any belief system." So that seems to be false by your own admission.

[stereologist]

Cladking very little of this is needed.

You have to understand what a seed is, how plants grow, that they propogate only their kind,

that it is good for food, that they need sun and water, that they grow best in specific soils that

vary from species to species, that you can domesticate it, that it won't be stolen by lazy people

or animals, etc, etc, etc.

1. You don't need to know how plants grow.

2. You don't need to know that they only propagate their own kind.

3. You don't need to know that they need sun and water

4. You don't need to know about what are better soils

5. You don't need to know that you can domesticate it

No, no, no. You are pretending that this is more complicated than it is.

[stereologist]

There's an enormous difference between just looking and scientific observation. Birds look

but they don't necessarily plant their favorite foods because they lack the understanding. They

lack the ability to observe that agriculture is even possible. The ability to observe is related

to metaphysics. It's not necessarily complex but it is founded on premises and definitions and

these must be understandable to the species/ individual.

Yes, there is always trial and error associated with technological improvement but this can't

happen outside of theory.

You are quite wrong about birds. One of the best wild bird foods in fall and winter are the seeds of poison ivy due to the high oil content of the seeds. Birds propagate seeds of poison ivy along hedge rows and the edges of woods where the plants can grow up onto the woody plants. Birds provide the next fall's food supply by spreading the seeds of the plant. Birds make sure that there is sufficient food available for the coming end of the year.

Your claims that it can't happen outside of theory is hilarious. Do birds formulate theories?

[spacecowboy342]

Leaf Cutter ants practice agriculture as well

[Oniomancer]

There's an enormous difference between just looking and scientific observation. Birds look

but they don't necessarily plant their favorite foods because they lack the understanding. They

lack the ability to observe that agriculture is even possible.

Well that's birds for you. There's a reason we use the phrase bird brain. But before Abramelin shows up and goes Hitchcock on me or something, let's take a good look at animal food selection in the wild versus their perceived intelligence, using mammals this time:

http://www.scienceda...81126102802.htm

The ability to observe is related

to metaphysics. It's not necessarily complex but it is founded on premises and definitions and

these must be understandable to the species/ individual.

(Sigh)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics

Yes, there is always trial and error associated with technological improvement but this can't

happen outside of theory.

Trail and error barely enters into it. Every year my lawn is covered with maple seeds in various states of germination. It doesn't take Gregor Mendel to recognize them for what they are and where they came from, and what they ultimately become if I go awhile between mowings. No need for elaborate theory and planning. Just straightforward free association of the progression of a fruit from a known source to a seedling to a new plant of the same source that produced the original fruit, which can ultimately be expected to produce more of the same fruit.

Animals are keen observers of their environment. They readily identify new opportunities as well as threats and change their behaviors accordingly without the benefit of any codified systems of forethought. Being animals ourselves, we should be expected to perform at least as well in the same capacity.

Edited November 22, 2013 by Oniomancer

[Kludge808]

Is the topic ever going to return to Ancient Aliens or is it going to continue being Cladking vs the Universe with the latter winning at every turn?

BTW, guys ... Cladking is a Zoserian. You'll never change his mind about his particular brand of ... ummm ... whatever it is.

[seeder]

There's an enormous difference between just looking and scientific observation. Birds look

but they don't necessarily plant their favorite foods because they lack the understanding. They

lack the ability to observe that agriculture is even possible. The ability to observe is related

to metaphysics. It's not necessarily complex but it is founded on premises and definitions and

these must be understandable to the species/ individual.

Yes, there is always trial and error associated with technological improvement but this can't

happen outside of theory.

here you go, lets start with some easy reading, and do pls read it all

http://www.infoplease.com/dk/encyclopedia/early-farming.html

and if you still dont get it, have a deeper read

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_agriculture

Now, are you saying aliens taught this to man or not? Because it is the AA thread, not the history of farming thread...

[Myles]

Well that's birds for you. There's a reason we use the phrase bird brain. But before Abramelin shows up and goes Hitchcock on me or something, let's take a good look at animal food selection in the wild versus their perceived intelligence, using mammals this time:

http://www.scienceda...81126102802.htm

(Sigh)

http://en.wikipedia....iki/Metaphysics

Every year my lawn is covered with maple seeds in various states of germination. It doesn't take Gregor Mendel to recognize them for what they are and where they came from, and what they ultimately become if I go awhile between mowings. No need for elaborate theory and planning. Just straightforward free association of the progression of a fruit from a known source to a seedling to a new plant of the same source that produced the original fruit, which can ultimately be expected to produce more of the same fruit.

Mine usually end up in the gutter sprouting like crazy in the spring till I do my spring cleaning of the gutters.

Now, are you saying aliens taught this to man or not? Because it is the AA thread, not the history of farming thread...

I think that is exactly what he is saying.

[SHaYap]

Herbal medicine came from animals

An astonishing report appeared in the December 2012 issue of ‘Biology Letters’. Researchers at the National Autonomous University of Mexico found sparrows and finches in the campus would pick up used cigarette butts and place them in their nests. Wondering about this act, the researchers studied the matter in some detail, and found that the birds used the cigarette butts to reduce the parasite infection affecting the eggs and baby birds in the nests! They found that ‘control’ nests with no butts had more parasite count then the ones which did. It also appears that the butt-usage is perhaps an urban manifestation — an innovation — of what sparrows do in the wild, where they collect some green plant material to line the nests to repel parasites.

Link Updated: June 27, 2013 02:46 IST

Monarch Butterflies Use Medicinal Plants to Treat Offspring for Disease

Oct. 12, 2010 — Monarch butterflies appear to use medicinal plants to treat their offspring for disease, research by biologists at Emory University shows. Their findings were published online Oct. 6 in the journal Ecology Letters.

ScienceDaily link

Animal self-medication and ethno-medicine: exploration and exploitation of the medicinal properties of plants.

Huffman MA.

Source

Section of Ecology, Primate Research Institute, Kyoto University, 41-2 Kanrin, Inuyama Aichi 484-8506, Japan. huffman@pri.kyoto-u.ac.jp

Abstract

Early in the co-evolution of plant-animal relationships, some arthropod species began to utilize the chemical defences of plants to protect themselves from their own predators and parasites. It is likely, therefore, that the origins of herbal medicine have their roots deep within the animal kingdom. From prehistoric times man has looked to wild and domestic animals for sources of herbal remedies. Both folklore and living examples provide accounts of how medicinal plants were obtained by observing the behaviour of animals. Animals too learn about the details of self-medication by watching each other. To date, perhaps the most striking scientific studies of animal self-medication have been made on the African great apes. The great ape diet is often rich in plants containing secondary compounds of non-nutritional, sometimes toxic, value that suggest medicinal benefit from their ingestion. Chimpanzees (Pan troglodytes), bonobos (Pan paniscus) and gorillas (Gorilla gorilla) are known to swallow whole and defecate intact leaves. The habit has been shown to be a physical means of purging intestinal parasites. Chimpanzees and man co-existing in sub-Saharan Africa are also known to ingest the bitter pith of Vernonia amygdalina for the control of intestinal nematode infections. Phytochemical studies have demonstrated a wide array of biologically-active properties in this medicinal plant species. In light of the growing resistance of parasites and pathogens to synthetic drugs, the study of animal self-medication and ethno-medicine offers a novel line of investigation to provide ecologically-sound methods for the treatment of parasites using plant-based medicines in populations and their livestock living in the tropics.

PubMed link

THE MEDICINAL USE OF PLANTS BY CHIMPANZEES IN THE WILD

Michael A. Huffman, Primate Research Institute, Kyoto University, Inuyama, Aichi 484 JAPAN

email: huffman@macaca.zool.kyoto-u.ac.jp

fax: from overseas 81 568 63-0085 No portion of this text may be cited without the explicit permission of the author.

Copyright 1996 M.A. Huffman

CHIMPP link

Maybe its the aliens that learned a thing or two from the locals eh ?

~

[Gaden]

You are quite wrong about birds. One of the best wild bird foods in fall and winter are the seeds of poison ivy due to the high oil content of the seeds. Birds propagate seeds of poison ivy along hedge rows and the edges of woods where the plants can grow up onto the woody plants. Birds provide the next fall's food supply by spreading the seeds of the plant. Birds make sure that there is sufficient food available for the coming end of the year.

Your claims that it can't happen outside of theory is hilarious. Do birds formulate theories?

Ummm, sorry I haveto disagree somewhat. Birds don't purposely plant seeds to provide for the next years' harvest. Poison ivy grows along fence lines, hedge rows' and the edges of woods because that is where they spend most of their time. Where they spend most of their time is where they uhhh, 'eliminate waste' most often. Since the seeds don't digest, they are still viable when they pass. I don't believe it is a concientious plan by the birds.

[seeder]

Ummm, sorry I haveto disagree somewhat. Birds don't purposely plant seeds to provide for the next years' harvest. Poison ivy grows along fence lines, hedge rows' and the edges of woods because that is where they spend most of their time. Where they spend most of their time is where they uhhh, 'eliminate waste' most often. Since the seeds don't digest, they are still viable when they pass. I don't believe it is a concientious plan by the birds.

I believe you misunderstood, birds dont intentionally do any seed planting, and I don't see the poster has implied that, watch this short vid, its what the poster was meaning

The Life of Birds, Sowing the seed. David Attenborough

http://www.bbc.co.uk...rammes/p00m7tty

typos

Edited November 22, 2013 by seeder

[Gaden]

My apolgies if I misunderstood, but this statement;

"Birds provide the next fall's food supply by spreading the seeds of the plant. Birds make sure that there is sufficient food available for the coming end of the year."

makes it sound as if it is a purposeful act.

[stereologist]

Ummm, sorry I haveto disagree somewhat. Birds don't purposely plant seeds to provide for the next years' harvest. Poison ivy grows along fence lines, hedge rows' and the edges of woods because that is where they spend most of their time. Where they spend most of their time is where they uhhh, 'eliminate waste' most often. Since the seeds don't digest, they are still viable when they pass. I don't believe it is a concientious plan by the birds.

I definitely agree with you Gaden. What it shows is that this providing food for the next season is an artifact of the process. Agriculture could have started as an artifact of another process such as dropped food. Or maybe agriculture comes about as areas where food is stripped of other parts of the plant are seen as places where food appears the next year. My point is that it is not necessary to start with the idea of farming. It could simply have started as an artifact of something people were doing for another reason.

[stereologist]

My apolgies if I misunderstood, but this statement;

"Birds provide the next fall's food supply by spreading the seeds of the plant. Birds make sure that there is sufficient food available for the coming end of the year."

makes it sound as if it is a purposeful act.

I thought your post well more making and important. Thanks for applying critical thinking to my posts.

[scowl]

There's an enormous difference between just looking and scientific observation.

That's for sure! Fortunately agriculture didn't require any scientific observation or it never would have happened. In fact some societies successfully practicing agriculture believed in the "spontaneous" creation of life. For example, they believed that meat exposed to air turned it into maggots. That's what they thought was happening when they planted their seeds. This was not a scientific explanation but was only a metaphysical explanation.

Yes, there is always trial and error associated with technological improvement but this can't

happen outside of theory.

Yes it can. Trust me, I do software. I see it every day.

[Harte]

I definitely agree with you Gaden. What it shows is that this providing food for the next season is an artifact of the process. Agriculture could have started as an artifact of another process such as dropped food.

Not to mention that humans eat seeds (and thus spread them exactly like birds do.)

Harte

[seeder]

Not to mention that humans eat seeds (and thus spread them exactly like birds do.)

Harte

I remember well the mango seed I nearly choked to death on... not to mention the avocado seed I needed the heineck maneuver for

But personally, I do eat lots of seeds and nuts... shelled of course... if anything then comes out its totally puréed...

http://www.chrisbeatcancer.com/health-nuts-seeds/

.

Edited November 22, 2013 by seeder

[cladking]

The first four only require simple observation. Domestication is as simple as preferential selection of species and varieties over time. Plants that don't respond well to domestication are automatically deselected and don't enter into cultivation. Even a caveman could do it.

Yes. But brain surgery is still today just simply opening the skull such that the

patient will live. Rocket science is just building an engine with more thrust than

its weight and using a spinning top to control it. Quantum mechanics is just the

way nature usually moves in increments rather than gradually.

I suppose if we just sent that last paragraph back to caveman days they could

build nuclear power plants and fly out to Alpha Centari for the weekend.

Everything is easy once it's been invented. Beavers don't go to school to learn

how to build dams because it's so simple a caveman could do it.

Ancient man had to have science and he had to have metaphysics for that science

to progress or he had to have help.

Edited November 23, 2013 by cladking

[Frank Merton]

I don't see where quantum mechanics has anything in particular to say for or against whether nature is quantized.

I had better qualify that; of course it tells us electron orbits and so on are quantized, but the main question is whether space/time is quantized.

Edited November 23, 2013 by Frank Merton

[kmt_sesh]

Cladking, metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, not of science. It is mostly abstract in nature and is not well adapted to addressing real-world science or historical investigation.

Unless, that is, you're inventing a new meaning for "metaphysics."

[stereologist]

Yes. But brain surgery is still today just simply opening the skull such that the

patient will live. Rocket science is just building an engine with more thrust than

its weight and using a spinning top to control it. Quantum mechanics is just the

way nature usually moves in increments rather than gradually.

I suppose if we just sent that last paragraph back to caveman days they could

build nuclear power plants and fly out to Alpha Centari for the weekend.

Everything is easy once it's been invented. Beavers don't go to school to learn

how to build dams because it's so simple a caveman could do it.

Ancient man had to have science and he had to have metaphysics for that science

to progress or he had to have help.

Again you attempt to suggest that this is more complex than it actually is. Farming can be a very simple effort or a complex one. Farming does not have to be intentional at first. Your claims of requirements have been shot down quite nicely.

This thread is about ancient aliens and not your inability to understand the origins of agriculture.