Ancient Aliens

[spacecowboy342]

I wouldn't say it was impossible that aliens have come to earth in the past just that despite what AA claims there is absolutely no evidence for it and therefore no reason to believe it.

[Oniomancer]

I don't really see that these are even relevant. The first one may or may not be uphill but

it's certainly not an extremely heavy weight. He is also using his arms which wouldn't be

likely with a team of stone draggers. Note, as well in both videos that the force is applied

toward the ground. This makes dragging easier (a little less efficient) because it's more

more natural way to pull and helps make for better traction with your feet. We don't know

the coefficient of friction or the slope in either case. If I got a grandmother out there harn-

essed to a shopping cart full of manhole covers and she couldn't drag it would that prove

my point? If she did move it would that mean they mustta used ramps?

A man can move massive weights under certain conditions. The stronger a man is the more

weight he can move. The more powerful he is the more conditions under which he can

move that weight. I can't see that this has ever been in contention. The question isn't how

much Jed can move the question is whether an ancient economy with primitive technology

can do 1.6 X 10 ^ 12 ft lbs of effective work. The events portrayed in these videos don't

really speak to this question and the ability of an individual to impart force to a single load

had almost no impact on the total job.

Did they or did they not each pull dead weight well in excess of the minimum amount Seeder calculated?

I must have missed something too. Where is it written that they couldn't use a means of getting better traction, especially since on a slope there's more tendency to lean forward? No comment on the fact that the second person used the simple expedient of a rope to pull on to add the output of his arms to that of his legs?

We don't know the variables of the original settup either, whatever that was, so i don't really see where you can dismiss them on that basis.

A powerful man would have stood the tire up and rolled it to the destination. An efficient

man woiuld have carried those plates two or three at a time. A wise man would have gotten

a ticket for the train. A wonder what the Egyptians wouldda done.

None of which is remotely relevant to the problem. The size and shape of the majority of the blocks precludes any of these methods without modification.

It's funny seeing this all come up again though. I just caught most of "Land of the Pharoahs" on TCM last weekend. You and Kmt would've both got a good laugh out of it.

[Kludge808]

That video is what helped me decide they were a good subject for "discussion." (You raised a bunch of wonderful ones so it wasn't an easy choice. ) This one has the advantage of involving no precision cut rocks or vitrification. There aren't even any impossibly huge stones to lift. This makes life a bit more difficult for the FTBs but that's their kuleana.

I have the Vymaanika Shaastra bookmarked so I can download a copy later to see what AA based their presentation on.

[scowl]

I don't believe I've made any extraordinary claims. Perhaps the most surprising to

many people is I believe it's possible that aliens have been on earth in the far distant

past.

And, uh, you don't believe this is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof?

Isn't your contention that this is impossible far more extraordinary.

This isn't anyone's contention because as I'm sure you know it's impossible to prove a negative.

Our contention is that all the things that people want to believe aliens are responsible for were actually done by humans. This isn't an extraordinary claim because we have strong evidence that humans were there, however we have no evidence that aliens were there.

[Kludge808]

This isn't an extraordinary claim because we have strong evidence that humans were there, however we have no evidence that aliens were there.

Add to this that we have equally strong evidence as to how it was done.

Cladking will not rest until we all say "It Wuz AIL-E-UNZ." Okay, fine. It was aliens and we're all part of the conspiracy to hide the truth. Deal with it.

[spacecowboy342]

Add to this that we have equally strong evidence as to how it was done.

Cladking will not rest until we all say "It Wuz AIL-E-UNZ." Okay, fine. It was aliens and we're all part of the conspiracy to hide the truth. Deal with it.

Oh man, now the men in black are going to show up

[jaylemurph]

Add to this that we have equally strong evidence as to how it was done.

Cladking will not rest until we all say "It Wuz AIL-E-UNZ." Okay, fine. It was aliens and we're all part of the conspiracy to hide the truth. Deal with it.

Hey, give the man his dues. He has a thing he believes and he sticks to that. He defends his position, but I've never seen him actively try to convert anyone. That's not the worst thing in the world.

--Jaylemurph

[cladking]

And, uh, you don't believe this is an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary proof?

Our contention is that all the things that people want to believe aliens are responsible for were actually done by humans. This isn't an extraordinary claim because we have strong evidence that humans were there, however we have no evidence that aliens were there.

The only way to estimate the probability of alien visitation is to know the density of

alien crafts in the vicinity and the probability that they'd stop. We can't even begin to

make estimates of this nature. We can speculate.

The only way to estimate the probability that there would be evidence of such a visitation

requires far more speculation. One such speculation might be that any species sufficiently

advanced to bridge interstellar distances could probably hide their presence even from out

modern technology if they chose. If we can't even state categorically that there are no aliens

today then why would anyone expect solid evidence where there is almost no evidence at

all. We don't even really know that people built all these projects and the fact that people

were there shouldn't be surprising. Where were the people supposed to be? Alpha Centari?

All we have left is the possible evidence of visitation. Why is this so disturbing to so many

people? No one has to prove a negative because evidence and logic are all we have with

which to work.

The extraordinary claim is that people could do things like 6.2 X 10 ^ 12 ft lbs of work with-

out leaving any evidence for how they did it!!!!! It won't be many years before this concept is

seen as ludicrous by most people. Yet, no one seems to have a problem with speculation

when it upholds their beliefs.

[Likely Guy]

I wouldn't say it was impossible that aliens have come to earth in the past just that despite what AA claims there is absolutely no evidence for it and therefore no reason to believe it.

Oh, there's plenty of circumstantial evidence that might suggest that Ancient Aliens could have came to earth to possibly aid us in our technologies.

*crickets*

I've got nothing, do I?

[spacecowboy342]

Well I would prefer something like finding a mummy wrapped in kevlar or something

[Maureen_jacobs]

I rather enjoy the program. May not buy the snake oil they are selling, however, they do stir a bit of something up. I believe in visitors from other worldly places. I open my mind to everything. Even if the theories are implausible, doesn't mean that is pointless.

One day, Mr. Tsolakos will tame his do, poor Philipe Coppins is deceased, and that Erik guy, he will take a chill pill. Looking at the different interpretations of the past is fun. My youngest watches it with me. He does a great Tsolakas imitation.

Anyway, most things I see on tv I don't believe. But it does make you think of your own theories.

[Frank Merton]

As tend to happen with me over and over, I fall back on the fact that aliens are an unnecessary and bizarre way to approach things that we know ordinary humans could do. Anything is possible so no one can prove aliens were not involved.

I love these TV shows that say how this or that was done is a "mystery." That a dozen possible ways it could have been done have been suggested and we have difficulty determining exactly which of these or some other method was used makes it unknown how it was done, but not that it could not have been done.

[kmt_sesh]

A reminder to the group: this thread is not about how the Great Pyramid was built. Enough time has been spent—unproductively, in my opinion—in trying to make some posters see reason in a myriad of other discussions at UM. We do not need to rehash it all here.

This thread is about the TV show Ancient Aliens. While certain avenues of discussion about ancient engineering are certainly appropriate, you can see what's happened over the past several pages: almost every post has revolved around the Great Pyramid as though it's the only possible topic.

Please mind yourselves going forward, I don't want to have to close this thread.

kmt_sesh

[kmt_sesh]

Now that I got that out of the way, let me post something. I've been having computer problems and haven't been around much as of late, which evidently is one reason this thread seems to have gotten out of hand. Some of you posters have been around here longer than I have, so you should know better than to poke the tiger.

Back on topic. A seriously self-limiting problem most of the pro-alien crowd has is a painful lack of understanding of even the basics of ancient history. As we all have seen with Mr. Hair on Ancient Aliens, a lack of intellectual integrity allows one to look for excuses rather than to commit to research—and pin everything on aliens. As cormac said in an earlier post, it's a lot like fundamentalist Christians who close their eyes and ears to real-world research and chalk it all up to God. While I am not an atheist myself, I think the human potential obligates us to do more than close our eyes and ears and remain fundamentally ill informed.

An even worse problem from the same crowd is the refusal even to try to educated themselves. They embrace a level gullibility that is truly unsettling. I am continually disheartened these days by the lack of critical-thinking skills so many adults display. Even worse, such uninformed people think they somehow intuitively know "the truth" and thus don't need to dig deeper. In choosing so, they refrain from a great body of widely available professional research and make the choice to remain ill informed. This is sad.

So instead of consulting the research published by the experts who've studied Puma Punku, the Great Pyramid, Baalbek, and many other ancient sites, they turn to Ancient Aliens or rubbish published by fringe authors.

This is why I tend to get a bit reactionary by the crowd that states historical research is wrong or historians don't know what they're saying or that academia is hiding "the truth" from all of us. It is intellectual sloth and there is no excuse for it.

Simply stated, chalking up everything to alien intervention is nothing more than the antithesis of common sense.

[spacecowboy342]

I agree with your views here but the fact that they actually air this show on something called the history channel doesn't help at all as it seems to give some implied authenticity to it. It wouldn't be as bad if they at least gave equal time to actual academics to give the mainstream view

[Frank Merton]

They are driven by a desire to attract the sort of audience that can be persuaded by TV commercials: not necessarily the best and brightest.

[kmt_sesh]

I agree with your views here but the fact that they actually air this show on something called the history channel doesn't help at all as it seems to give some implied authenticity to it. It wouldn't be as bad if they at least gave equal time to actual academics to give the mainstream view

They are driven by a desire to attract the sort of audience that can be persuaded by TV commercials: not necessarily the best and brightest.

You both hit the nail on the head. The fact that the show is aired on the History Channel is troubling, but look at the state of the History Channel as of late: in between brief moments of useful programming, this channel airs an endless array of mindless flotsam with no educational or academic value. Much the same is true for the Discovery Channel, and The Learning Channel has been a vacuous wasteland for years now (I'd be willing to bet that most people who watch that channel don't even know what "TLC" stands for).

It's all about ratings, nothing more. Quality be damned. Perhaps someone can set me straight, but I think everything started to go downhill when Disney bought these channels.

[Leonardo]

I rather enjoy the program. May not buy the snake oil they are selling, however, they do stir a bit of something up. I believe in visitors from other worldly places. I open my mind to everything. Even if the theories are implausible, doesn't mean that is pointless.

You're absolutely right there, Maureen.

At the very least, programs such as AA encourage people to think about these ancient cultures and helps raise their historical profile - which is never a bad thing.

[Kludge808]

Sooo ... maybe everyone will go to the vimanas. Ezekiel's wheel? The Nephilim? How about the Nazca Lines?

[cladking]

It's all about ratings, nothing more. Quality be damned. Perhaps someone can set me straight, but I think everything started to go downhill when Disney bought these channels.

I don't think so.

Everything is imploding and the schools can no longer teach. Money goes not to research

but to things with military applications. Schools turn out consumers rather than citizens. TV

isn't even really about entertainment so much as it is maximizing the number of mindless eyes

directed toward it. When there is anything of any quality somewhere they explain it to death

because most people have learned not to pay too close attention.

Disney is not the source of the problem but merely another opportunist.

[cladking]

So instead of consulting the research published by the experts who've studied Puma Punku, the Great Pyramid, Baalbek, and many other ancient sites, they turn to Ancient Aliens or rubbish published by fringe authors.

"Professional research" is not always better than popular entertainment.

Money drives everything now.

[Myles]

If there were aliens there is sufficient evidence to support the fact with about a

40% certainty. I'd say it's quite possible and shouldn't be ruled out.

I don't understand this comment. What fact? Is the 40% just your opinion. I assume so.

My opinion, based off of all the evidence is that there is less than a 1% chance that the Earth has been visited by aliens.

[stereologist]

I don't think so.

Everything is imploding and the schools can no longer teach. Money goes not to research

but to things with military applications. Schools turn out consumers rather than citizens. TV

isn't even really about entertainment so much as it is maximizing the number of mindless eyes

directed toward it. When there is anything of any quality somewhere they explain it to death

because most people have learned not to pay too close attention.

Disney is not the source of the problem but merely another opportunist.

Maybe someone can help me out here, but didn't one of the ancient Greek philosophers have the same complaint that the young generation couldn't cut the mustard and that everything was going downhill from here?

It's the same old, same old here cladking. The expression sometimes used is, "back in the good old days ..." SNL made a skit out of it called grumpy old man. let's see if I can paraphrase your statement in grumpy old man form.

Back when I went to school they knew how to teach. They made us memorize arithmetic tables until our eyes were swollen and our finger were sliced with paper cuts and our clothes were stained red and WE LIKED IT. Back then did we waste time and effort on safer cars and namby pamby cholesterol? We ate our lard laden food and hardened our arteries and WE LIKED IT. Did we have TV like the kids have today? No. We ran around the house with racoon hats on our heads and got our history lessons from Gunsmoke and Daniel Boone with our hardening arteries and blood stained shirts learning that life was about Mousketeers and WE LIKED IT.

The problem is that there is nothing to suggest that aliens visited Earth in ancient times. No matter how much people grouse about today's generation it is only a distraction from the real issue which is no evidence for ancient aliens.

[stereologist]

"Professional research" is not always better than popular entertainment.

Money drives everything now.

Guess that the notion that money is the driving force has been the claim for a long time. Nothing new there.

As far as professional research goes it is improving especially in fields such as archaeology which has gone from interested amateurs to a science. Your glittering generality is really just a flippant statement which the evidence is strongly against especially when it comes to the subject of ancient aliens.

[Myles]

You're absolutely right there, Maureen.

At the very least, programs such as AA encourage people to think about these ancient cultures and helps raise their historical profile - which is never a bad thing.

The problem is that they state lies as facts. I don't think that is good for anything.