Is slavery a natural condition

[Sir Wearer of Hats]

Last night, Aussie PM Kevin Rudd was called out by a pastor on his plays for a conscience vote etc on marriage equality in Australia should he win the election.

Basically the Pastor threw Jesus in Rudd's face and said (basically) "you need to listen to Jesus and see that homosexuality is a sin".

Rudd's response was classic Rudd, quick and dismissive "the bible also calls Slavery a natural condition".

Which has gotten the backs up of a few Christians who said "no it doesn't!" and go on to cite every verse where slavery is mentioned - you know the ones, makes slaves of your neighbours, sell your daughter into slavery, treat your slaves good etc - as evidence that the Bible doesn't say it's a natural condition. While missing the bit that God seems to be okay with someone owning another person, or lots of other people.

Anyway, the question is - who is right? Does the Bible say or imply that slavery is a natural condition or was Rudd off the mark and (I quote someone in my Farcebook feed) "insulting all true Christians by implying God supports slavery".

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Slavery is natural condition. Slavery was never abolished. Only we have different terminology. Workers. This is not democracy. Its demoNocracy.

So I vote-yes. Slavery is natural condition. Bible is right.

Big Bad Voodoo

Edited September 3, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[Bendy Demon]

Just because something is 'natural' doesn't mean it is right.

Hitting is also natural but we, as a society, should not be engaging in it.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

should not be engaging in it.

Capitalism engaing it.

Big Bad Voodoo

[Frank Merton]

Slavery is natural condition. Slavery was never abolished. Only we have different terminology. Workers. This is not democracy. Its demoNocracy.

So I vote-yes. Slavery is natural condition. Bible is right.

Big Bad Voodoo

I don't think that is quite accurate; slavery depends on violence to sustain itself and keep slaves obedient. That we are forced to go out and work to make a living is only reasonable as there are large numbers who would not work. That is called parasitism.

One of the problems with democracy is that those who find themselves, almost always because of some personal lack, in jobs they don't like and that don't pay well, use the political process to force political intervention, and in the end make things worse.

[danielost]

Slavery is natural condition. Slavery was never abolished. Only we have different terminology. Workers. This is not democracy. Its demoNocracy.:-)

So I vote-yes. Slavery is natural condition. Bible is right.

Big Bad Voodoo

No workers are not slaves. They provide a service for a price. If

you are not making enough money you look or make a better job. Labor is a product, just like electricity, water, or office supplies.

When the econom is in the dumps and there aren't enough jobs the price/wage goes down.

As for slavery, I don't think god likes it. But, he gave rules to protect the slaves and limit their status as slaves for seven years. We called this indenture servents. Both groups were treatedx horrible in the usa.

[Frank Merton]

Just because something is 'natural' doesn't mean it is right.

Hitting is also natural but we, as a society, should not be engaging in it.

While that is true, I would argue that slavery is not natural. Humans and a few insects have slaves.

[Elfin]

I don't think that is quite accurate; slavery depends on violence to sustain itself and keep slaves obedient. That we are forced to go out and work to make a living is only reasonable as there are large numbers who would not work. That is called parasitism.

One of the problems with democracy is that those who find themselves, almost always because of some personal lack, in jobs they don't like and that don't pay well, use the political process to force political intervention, and in the end make things worse.

If this personal lack includes not having access to the right education and contacts for nice, cushy jobs and inherited wealth and power, then they are merely exercising the principle of might is right to try and redress the unfairness.

Edited September 3, 2013 by Elfin

[SpiritWriter]

No, its of the devil. But the devil's attempts are also served as a footstool. Those that are of The Devil shall perish.

[danielost]

I don't think that is quite accurate; slavery depends on violence to sustain itself and keep slaves obedient. That we are forced to go out and work to make a living is only reasonable as there are large numbers who would not work. That is called parasitism.

One of the problems with democracy is that those who find themselves, almost always because of some personal lack, in jobs they don't like and that don't pay well, use the politicalp process to force political intervention, and in the end make things worse.

Sorry frank but that is socialism. Capitalism is about givin everyone a fair chance to be successful. Where as socialism is about keeping everyone the same. Being the same is not the same as being equal.

You live in a coutry that forces everyone to be the same. Where as I live in a country thatg gives everyone n equal chance of success.

Oh and the usa is not a democracy, it is republican.

[Frank Merton]

If this personal lack includes not having access to the right education and contacts for nice, cushy jobs and inherited wealth and power, then they are merely exercising the principle of might is right to try and redress the unfairness.

I know many people raised in poverty who have become important members of society. Lack of educational opportunity is a problem that some overcome and others don't.

[Elfin]

No, its of the devil. But the devil's attempts are also served as a footstool. Those that are of The Devil shall perish.

The Bible and Koran and other monotheist texts uphold slavery. So yes, I agree, it is a product of evil.

[Frank Merton]

Sorry frank but that is socialism. Capitalism is about givin everyone a fair chance to be successful. Where as socialism is about keeping everyone the same. Being the same is not the same as being equal.

You live in a coutry that forces everyone to be the same. Where as I live in a country thatg gives everyone n equal chance of success.

Oh and the usa is not a democracy, it is republican.

Well, technically I'm a socialist, although I actually believe in pragmatic mixing of state and private enterprise.

Your statement about the US being a republic and not a democracy may be technically true, but has nothing to do with what I said and was pedantic and irritating in the extreme because of its superciliousness.

[Elfin]

Sorry frank but that is socialism. Capitalism is about givin everyone a fair chance to be successful. Where as socialism is about keeping everyone the same. Being the same is not the same as being equal.

You live in a coutry that forces everyone to be the same. Where as I live in a country thatg gives everyone n equal chance of success.

Oh and the usa is not a democracy, it is republican.

Socialism is about giving everyone a fair chance.

I know many people raised in poverty who have become important members of society. Lack of educational opportunity is a problem that some overcome and others don't.

And those who have been given a really good education have nothing to "overcome".

[SpiritWriter]

The Bible and Koran and other monotheist texts uphold slavery. So yes, I agree, it is a product of evil.

So would you say you attribute the act of slavery to these sources? Or are you saying you hate it because these entities support it? If the act of slavery derived from its own source would you hate it just the same?

I would hope you could see a product for itself and not tie it to your personal biases.

Edited September 3, 2013 by SpiritWriter

[Almagest]

God doesn't support slavery - he demands it of us all.

[Elfin]

So would you say you attribute the act of slavery to these sources? Or are you saying you hate it because these entities support it? If the act of slavery derived from its own source would you hate it just the same?

Slavery existed long before monotheism was invented, but it did nothing to stop it. It is therefore part of the detritus of the past, against wich we are still fighting.

[Frank Merton]

That the Bible and Q'uran don't denounce slavery shows us that this was the prevailing attitude of the cultures that produced those books. The lesson I draw from that is that we cannot depend on our cultural training (aka "conscience") to determine good and evil but instead have to think about it using rational compassion.

[Elfin]

God doesn't support slavery - he demands it of us all.

What a nice god he is then.

[SpiritWriter]

Slavery existed long before monotheism was invented, but it did nothing to stop it. It is therefore part of the detritus of the past, against wich we are still fighting.

Monotheism on its own has nothing to do with slavery according to pure belief in a singular entity. Have humans used slavery and covered it up with religion? If so that is of the devil. Your terminology is not 100% sound.

Edited September 3, 2013 by SpiritWriter

[SpiritWriter]

<3 much love though

peace

[Elfin]

Monotheism on its own has nothing to do with slavery according to pure belief in a singular entity. Have humans used slavery and covered it up with religion? If so that is of the devil. Your terminology is not 100% sound.

The sacred books that monotheists hold to be holy scripture endorse slavery.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why monotheism is evil, because it produces holy, unchanging books, that retard human development.

[SpiritWriter]

The sacred books that monotheists hold to be holy scripture endorse slavery.

This is one of the fundamental reasons why monotheism is evil, because it produces holy, unchanging books, that retard human development.

We retard our own human development by sticking to a certain way of thinking that is full of hate.

Edited September 4, 2013 by SpiritWriter

[Frank Merton]

We retard our own human development by sticking to a certain way of thinking that is full of hate.

Maybe sticking to ancient beliefs that intellectually honest people long ago abandoned also retards our human development.

[SpiritWriter]

Maybe sticking to ancient beliefs that intellectually honest people long ago abandoned also retards our human development.

Maybe you just don't believe in God.

I do, and I don't feel retarded one bit, thank you...

Edited September 4, 2013 by SpiritWriter