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danielost

raising minimum wage does not reduce poverty

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supervike

Why shouldn't these people demand better pay?

If a corporation can look for any way to maximized profits and that is deemed 'good', why shouldn't an individual be able to look and explore their options as well?

It's a two way street, a symbiotic relationship. Working class people don't want the companies to go out of business, that would be completely insane. They are just asking for a more fair representation of their value. The ONLY way to do that is via money.

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spartan max2

Just to jump in about unions. I dont think that are inherently bad. In fact I think workers VOLUNTARILY banning together to negotiate is capitalism at its best. Its all volunteery.

I think the problem is today is that we FORCE people to be in unions. Forcing people in unions makes the union a monopoly making it corrupt because it no longer has to care about its members

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Leonardo

^ so the company should just willingly accept a smaller profit for the good of someone else? Erm why? That goes against everything we see in the biological world. :s ps - this is the real world here, not some fantasy communist slave world. Bottom line is, if min wages go up so will prices to cover the losses. ;) it's quiet simple.

This is an argument often trotted out to defend excessive capitalism - "It's just natural selection."

Except that we have brains which allow us to make decisions which are right for our society, but not necessarily in concert with 'natural selection'. The 'natural selection argument' implies we are simply human animals with instincts, rather than human beings with a brain.

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Frank Merton

People making 7 bucks an hour can't afford property

Why should they be guaranteed property?
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Frank Merton

The labor market is the main driver behind increasing prices, and so long as there is slack in the labor market (unemployment and underemployment), there is a drag on prices. It's a hard choice -- between full employment and inflation.

Other things going up in price, such as commodities, tend to get offset by substitution and reduced consumption, but when wages go up the constraints on spending that unemployment generates hold back overall prices.

Most governments try to aim for near-full employment and in the process accept a little inflation. It is a difficult balance because acts by the government have a lag, so that the right balance is hard to determine.

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Frank Merton

This is an argument often trotted out to defend excessive capitalism - "It's just natural selection."

Except that we have brains which allow us to make decisions which are right for our society, but not necessarily in concert with 'natural selection'. The 'natural selection argument' implies we are simply human animals with instincts, rather than human beings with a brain.

What you say is true, but tends to lead to political efforts (such as mandatory wages and prices) that are on the same order as Canute ordering the tide not to come in. You cannot legislate natural processes.

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Frank Merton

Just to jump in about unions. I dont think that are inherently bad. In fact I think workers VOLUNTARILY banning together to negotiate is capitalism at its best. Its all volunteery.

I think the problem is today is that we FORCE people to be in unions. Forcing people in unions makes the union a monopoly making it corrupt because it no longer has to care about its members

Unions can't function voluntarily longer than a short period because otherwise non-union competition drives unionized firms out of business.

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Thanato

I make 10.25 minimum wage (ontario) and if I budget I can survive payin rent and buying food, I can not survive and support my son at the same time which is why I have help.

Remember many of these places make good profits and can actual absorbe the costs of a higher minimum wage.

Sure something's do go up in price but rent wouldnt increase, hydro wouldn't increase, gas wouldn't increase.

Some items might but most won't.

Not everything is directly tied with the minimum wage. But also raising the minimum could I fact encourage economic development. More money in people's pockets means more spending and buying items they might not of bought.

So the more money you pay people the more money gets spent and the more economic growth happens.

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questionmark

And hat is the government doing to help make jobs. They are increasing income, corpor ate, sales tax on medicl devises. Let's not fofget the thousands of new regultions which also cost time nd money.

The government does not "make jobs", the economy does. But as long as you can make more money playing with money on Wall Street don't hold your breath until anybody does.

The rich like to work as much as the poor do.

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Bavarian Raven

This is an argument often trotted out to defend excessive capitalism - "It's just natural selection."

Except that we have brains which allow us to make decisions which are right for our society, but not necessarily in concert with 'natural selection'. The 'natural selection argument' implies we are simply human animals with instincts, rather than human beings with a brain.

Just because you don't like how something works doesn't make it bad. ;) just saying.

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Bavarian Raven

Oh and for the record, I started at min wage a long time ago. I know what it's like. I worked hard. Saved. Payed my way through Uni. Now I make a decent living. It can be done. It just takes effort, a will, luck, and sacrifices.

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Frank Merton

The government does not "make jobs", the economy does. But as long as you can make more money playing with money on Wall Street don't hold your breath until anybody does.

The rich like to work as much as the poor do.

Actually in most cases it is work that is the reason they are rich. My observation of workers in the States is that those in lower-status (lower paying) jobs are usually there because of problems -- usually attitude. I see that among some posters here too.
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Frank Merton

How to get out of a minimum wage job:

Go to night school.

Go to work early and leave late.

Don't gripe.

KA

Be friendly to everyone, not just your boss

Volunteer for things

Don't overdo it

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danielost

Why shouldn't these people demand better pay?

If a corporation can look for any way to maximized profits and that is deemed 'good', why shouldn't an individual be able to look and explore their options as well?

It's a two way street, a symbiotic relationship. Working class people don't want the companies to go out of business, that would be completely insane. They are just asking for a more fair representation of their value. The ONLY way to do that is via money.

You have to remember labor is a product. Right now we have more labor than we need. Like having to many apples th price goes down. Currently most of the job gains are part time jobs.

Since the 90s family usually needed two jobs one for living, one to pay the taxes. Today most workers will have to have two jobs to pay for obama care. The companies are either reducing hours or workers so they don't get hit by obam care. The worker will have to shell out at least $2000. A year to pay for it.

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F3SS

Frank, if only we could agree on guns :)

And this is where the right-wing rhetoric falls down - because, no, they don't.

Prices have to go up if companies want to maintain the same profit margins, but it is a fallacy they have to go up to cover the new wage.

It isn't rhetoric. It's business and how it works. First, small companies will always want to maintain the same or higher profit margins. Why wouldn't they? Second, large corporation have shareholders who invested money into the company. You won't get a lot of shareholders willing to take high risks for less ROI. Why would they?

You want social fairness. You should run a business and accept all the risks and headaches that come with it. Then tell us if you feel the same.

Why shouldn't these people demand better pay?

If a corporation can look for any way to maximized profits and that is deemed 'good', why shouldn't an individual be able to look and explore their options as well?

It's a two way street, a symbiotic relationship. Working class people don't want the companies to go out of business, that would be completely insane. They are just asking for a more fair representation of their value. The ONLY way to do that is via money.

There's nothing wrong with asking for better pay. Demanding it? I don't think so.

The 'individuals' options are slim when they're only looking at where they currently work. Demanding a raise isn't exploring an option. It's saying that they're not going to try harder to better themselves. It's saying they're going to demand you fix their personal situation for them. Exploring options would be looking towards another job, looking towards further education, looking towards screwing 'the man' and attempting to make it on their own and many others. Choosing a life at McDonald's or Walmart then getting mad because they don't pay well, deciding that's as far as your going to get yourself and then demanding the employer fix their situation is not exploring options.

Burger flipping, bagging groceries... Isn't a minimum wage for a minimum skill fair representation? I'm not demeaning the job but literally anybody with hands and eyes can do it.

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danielost

If frank, a person living in a communist country can understand this, why can't those of you living in the so called free world understand it.b

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Frank Merton

If frank, a person living in a communist country can understand this, why can't those of you living in the so called free world understand it.b

I went to college in the states and spend probably a month or so there each year as part of my job.

However, the principles of economics applies to socialist countries too (Vietnam is no longer really socialist, but more like Sweden). Countries like Vietnam have large underemployed populations, so minimum wages have even more bad effects than in a more fully employed economy like the States. I think a low minimum wage is appropriate, and Vietnam has one, as a tool against exploitation (it is something fairly easy to check and enforce when one sees exploiters), but must be set with extreme care and a lot of study. Since politics is not involved here, I think Vietnam can use this tool better than democracies can, where it becomes a political thing.

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F3SS

^^^@Daniel... That truly is something to ponder.

Edited by F3SS

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questionmark

How to get out of a minimum wage job:

Go to night school.

Go to work early and leave late.

Don't gripe.

KA

Be friendly to everyone, not just your boss

Volunteer for things

Don't overdo it

Helps, but then it increases the amount of illegal aliens again because they need somebody to do the cheap labor jobs.

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F3SS

I went to college in the states and spend probably a month or so there each year as part of my job.

However, the principles of economics applies to socialist countries too (Vietnam is no longer really socialist, but more like Sweden). Countries like Vietnam have large underemployed populations, so minimum wages have even more bad effects than in a more fully employed economy like the States. I think a low minimum wage is appropriate, and Vietnam has one, as a tool against exploitation (it is something fairly easy to check and enforce when one sees exploiters), but must be set with extreme care and a lot of study. Since politics is not involved here, I think Vietnam can use this tool better than democracies can, where it becomes a political thing.

If there's a way to compare to US $ could you tell us what the minimum wage is in Vietnam and are minimum wage jobs similar to ours? Also, is there a limit to how much wealth and success a citizen can gain there?

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Frank Merton

Helps, but then it increases the amount of illegal aliens again because they need somebody to do the cheap labor jobs.

Well then let them in legally. You then don't have what otherwise is in effect slave labor and the distortions on the economy are reduced, plus the nation is made stronger.

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F3SS

Helps, but then it increases the amount of illegal aliens again because they need somebody to do the cheap labor jobs.

If we properly enforced our immigration laws that wouldn't really be anything of concern. I don't think you're exactly right but you're not exactly wrong either. I don't want to derail the thread on immigration policies though.

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Frank Merton

If there's a way to compare to US $ could you tell us what the minimum wage is in Vietnam and are minimum wage jobs similar to ours? Also, is there a limit to how much wealth and success a citizen can gain there?

The exchange rate is not around 20,000 VND to the dollar. The highest minimum wage (in urban areas) is 2,300,000 per month.

There are now two known legal billionaires in Vietnam. One made his fortune in Russia selling something like Ramen, the other makes movies.

Technically you are limited in your wealth if you are a member of the party, but there are so many ways to defeat this that I doubt it means much except symbolically.

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F3SS

The exchange rate is not around 20,000 VND to the dollar. The highest minimum wage (in urban areas) is 2,300,000 per month.

There are now two known legal billionaires in Vietnam. One made his fortune in Russia selling something like Ramen, the other makes movies.

Technically you are limited in your wealth if you are a member of the party, but there are so many ways to defeat this that I doubt it means much except symbolically.

Is that about $115 a month? If so, everybody in America stop whining right now!

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Frank Merton

You have to remember that most work in Vietnam is family-run farms and small retails and small manufacturers where there are no employees, just family members in the extended family, with maybe a few adopted family members. They share the income of the business in various ways, usually by living together and reinvesting.

The minimum wage generally applies to government employees and foreign enterprises, and of course joint ventures.

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