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danielost

raising minimum wage does not reduce poverty

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Gunn

I want 20 dollars an hour to flip beef patties on the grill, I have no education, can barely speak the English language, am I hired?

Sure! How does a schedule of 2 hours a day, 5 days a week sound?

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Terian

I never said I was against helping people. But that "help" should not be "At the point of a gun" so to speak. I do volunteer work; i help friends and family when I can. But it's because I want too - not because I am forced too. A difference. :)

Accumulating and hoarding wealth is a natural thing. It's no different then hoarding food before the cold and dark of winter sets in. It's storing "goods/a means of survival" for a rainy day. Just because some people are naturally better at it, does not make it "bad". I notice it's almost always the people who are bad at it that complain the most and say the system is not fair... hmm... i am sensing a bias.

Cheers.

No, it's not a bias. It's an observation. An observation that many people do not care about their fellow human beings. "I got mine so screw you".

I run my own business, but I am not "hoarding wealth" in the sense I am talking about. I donate, I volunteer. I am not "wealthy" by any stretch of the words.

I am biased on one thing though. I give till it hurts. I know I should not sometimes, but sorry, I do. I also know I shouldn't judge those that do not, but sorry, I do.

I understand what you are saying about voluntary charity instead of state controled theft and abuse. I am not for the state's involvement on one hand because they are terribly inefficient and wasteful. But, I see so much greed and selfishness that I am skeptical that people would sudenly grow hearts and souls. They will convince themslevs they need this or that, a new Ipod or another McMansion in the suburbs and will not give.

I know I am a ball of conflicting, irrational emotions. I believe human beings have the capacity to do great things. I believe we could fix things if we tried. I also believe doing it at the "gunpoint of the Government" is not the right way to do it. The right way to do it is to reach the hearts and minds of human beings. To change they way they think and feel. To convince them that when we all prosper, it is good for everyone. When the least of us wallow in pain and suffering, it is a blight on all of us. I truly feel that way.

I know, my weird views of freedom and charity are strange and not generally acceptable, but I believe it is possible and essential for the longevity and prosperity of the human race.

Edited by Terian
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Jeremiah65

I was invited to take a week off for a rather rude and abrasive position on a volatile topic...my apologies to those I offended. I am just a obnoxious person with rather set in stone perspectives on the role of Government in our lives. That said, I have missed out on a few things. The first thread I noticed on my return was this one.

We have discussed this before so I would like to post my pre-written and re-used opinion on this once more. This is just my opinion and my basic take on the Philosophy of Freedom when considering this topic

I can understand why many people that like the idea of increasing the minimum wage believe that it is a good thing. I totally understand...but it always comes at a cost.

I can remember my first job while I was in high school. I made $3.35 and hour...woo-hoo! That was...erm...over 30 years ago.

What I have observed over the years is that every time the minimum wage goes up, the cost of everything else goes up. The fallout of this is while it is great that those on the low end of the income scale get a bump, they only get to enjoy it for a very short time. Also...everyone else who was making say...$12.00 dollars an hour are NOT going to get a raise but their costs are going to go up. See the prison?

I'm not saying it is right that every time the minimum wage goes up that the cost of everything else goes up to...it is just a reality. Corporations work on percentages of profit over cost. If it costs $10.00 to make something and you and your stockholders are working for a 25% gross profit...that product must sell for no less than $12.50. If the cost of producing goes up 10% and now cost $11.00 to make...the associated product will now sell for $13.75. See how this works?

I like to think of myself as a realist with hopeful thoughts. I "hope" that one day the world will be fair and we can all live in decent homes with food on our table...but the "realist" in me says..."ain't gonna happen"...

Here is a thought though…I like to toss out a little food for thought...

In 1972, the price of an ounce of gold was $38.00 per ounce

(source = http://minerals.usgs...gold/300798.pdf )

In 1972, the minimum wage was $1.60 an hour.

A person in 1972 had to work approx 23.75 hours to earn the equivalent of an ounce of gold value.

In 2013, the price of gold is roughly $1,400.00 an ounce (give or take)

In 2013 the minimum wage is currently $7.25 and hour.

A person today must work approximately 193 hours to earn the equivalent to an ounce of gold.

Just saying…this is a good indicator of how the cost of things has outpaced the incomes of consumers. This is just one blatant indicator. It’s not hard to look up the cost of milk or gasoline from a selected year, look up the minimum wage of that year and then compare the cost of that product’s current price to today’s minimum wage. The percentages get surprising.

Consider this…

In my humble opinion...

If you really and truly want to make the life of others more prosperous and fulfilling...

There is only one possible road...

Freedom.

Here comes my soapbox moment..

soapboxrant_zps0690d4a2.gif

Many have this idea that the Gov mandating wages is the answer when time and again it has been proven to be only a temporary "pleasure" until the costs rise and wipe out the gains...fact.

The Gov...while mandating this...is also holding strict laws on free enterprise and entrepreneurship. They are holding both ends of the rope that they are using to hang people with. Raising the minimum wage does not create prosperity, it continues wage slavery.

I say...get the Gov out of the way...let people do what they can do to take care of themselves. If a person wants to get a cheap trailer and a cheap grill and sell cheap hot dogs along the side of the road...he should be able to do that. He should not have to pay for licensing and regulations just to get started. Sure, have a health inspection randomly to make sure the guy isn't poisoning people...but do not punish before he even gets started.

If someone wants to be a door-to-door masseuse...they should be able to without ridiculous rules and regulations.

All these lobbied for regulations and codes do is stifle competition in the market place. If you are already up the ladder, what a better way to keep your "lofty position" than to lobby for regulations that limit and/or remove competition...

The only true answer is complete economic and financial freedom for all. I am not talking about no oversight...there are some things that have to be monitored for safety...but...many things are regulated for the sake of regulation alone.

There used to be a term "caveat emptor"..."Buyer beware"...if you choose to purchase poorly, that is your lack of research...it should not be up to the Gov to protect you from your own stupidity. There was also the term "caveat venditor"..."seller beware". If your greed to sell products causes you to give credit lines to those incapable of paying for them, that is your stupidity and you should not be able to get the Gov to recover your losses. See how nice freedom can work?

I believe things like prostitution and certain herbal substances should be legal. They can be taxed and it boils down to two people making a contract between them. There should be no place for the Gov in this arrangement.

I digress though. I believe in freedom and personal responsibility. I know many-many people believe the answer to our woes is in more and more Gov't control and for me and those that feel as I do...that is the exact opposite of what needs to happen to return to prosperity...

/end soapbox

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Frank Merton

As abrasive as I have been now and then (I always regret it too late) I'm amazed it hasn't happened to me.

I live in Vietnam, a country that a lot of American propaganda labels as unfree, but I think we are actually a good deal more free in many ways than are Americans.

The real difference between the two countries is the absence of republican democracy and instead a one-party meritocracy, but when it comes to the things you mention, almost without exception Vietnamese have greater freedom.

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danielost

The one who are screaming the loudest about the system not being fair and the government needs to force others out. Are the ones who don't really want to help others. There are al kinds of c'harities out there who need money. We don't need a bill gates telling the government to take more of our money to help others. He can donate all their money to a charity. But, what he is saying the government needs to force him to help others.

Ps. Don't give street beggers money, it usually ends up being drunk or stuck in an arm. They to soup kitchens to eat. Instead give the money to a soup kitchen or volunter to one.

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Frank Merton

We give beggars who come to our door a plate of veggies and rice. Many of them really appreciate it.

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spacecowboy342

I did say except the safety regs. That means keep them. But, stupid regs. Such as 'keep out of reach of children' on matches and lighters.

I would agree sometimes they go overboard some
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Br Cornelius

You end greed and humans will go extinct - it is this drive to be the "best", better then everyone else (or wealthier or more successful or more famous or stronger, etc), that drives invention and innovation. We need competition to survive and expand. Simple as that.

As for the Star Trek "future" - it's impossible. Nor should we aim for it. Simple as that.

That is an ideologically derived opinion. There is nothing absolute in it.

Br Cornelius

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Bavarian Raven
That is an ideologically derived opinion. There is nothing absolute in it.

Br Cornelius

Oh - prove it wrong?

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Br Cornelius

I never said I was against helping people. But that "help" should not be "At the point of a gun" so to speak. I do volunteer work; i help friends and family when I can. But it's because I want too - not because I am forced too. A difference. :)

Accumulating and hoarding wealth is a natural thing. It's no different then hoarding food before the cold and dark of winter sets in. It's storing "goods/a means of survival" for a rainy day. Just because some people are naturally better at it, does not make it "bad". I notice it's almost always the people who are bad at it that complain the most and say the system is not fair... hmm... i am sensing a bias.

Cheers.

Many primitive instincts manifest as socially destructive activities in modern societies. Again there is nothing inevitable about following our primitive instincts regardless of whether they produce good outcomes for society as a whole. We are intelligent creatures, not just instinctive beasts, and we can make intelligent choices beyond what our instincts compel us to do.

Social Darwinism has brought us to a very disfunctional and unbalanced society, which denies the overwhelming fact that man is predominantly a social creature who thrives best in a cooperative society.

Br Cornelius

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spacecowboy342

Oh - prove it wrong?

Prove it right

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Br Cornelius

Oh - prove it wrong?

Equally prove its inevitability beyond the stated theory.

Br Cornelius

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spacecowboy342

There is also a price if the minimum is not raised. Without minimum wage laws companies would not pay a wage high enough to make ends meet for unskilled jobs.This is proved by the fact that the minimum is paid but no more.People must have a chance to make a living.These are not people who are lazy and lying around collecting welfare but people working and trying to survive as best they can.Right now minimum wage is inadequate to survive.Even if it is raised as suggested it will still be inadequate but a little better.This money will be spent on food utilities and rent.Money moving around helps the economy.You all complain about people who won't work and abuse the system.Why not help those who are at least trying?

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Bavarian Raven
Equally prove its inevitability beyond the stated theory.

Br Cornelius

You questioned its validity, then prove me wrong please :)

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spacecowboy342

You questioned its validity, then prove me wrong please :)

You made a statement.It is proper to ask for evidence that that statement is true :yes:

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TSS

Social Darwinism has brought us to a very disfunctional and unbalanced society, which denies the overwhelming fact that man is predominantly a social creature who thrives best in a cooperative society.

Br Cornelius

Man thrives best when he is driven by something, what the cause of the drive is varies in every person. Man thrives best in a cooperative society? How do you mean, thrives best in what way?

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Br Cornelius

You questioned its validity, then prove me wrong please :)

If you make a declarative statement that social darwinsim is inevitable then don't be surprised when you are called on it.

The most robust and sustainable societies are the most cooperative and this applies from the most primitive tribal societies to complex industrial nations.

Competitive behaviour is always part of the mix, but when it become the dominant part then society collapses as it is doing in the USA.

Social Darwinism is an economic theory which claims biological foundations. it is as bogus as the whole neoliberal agenda which spawned it.

Br Cornelius

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spacecowboy342

Man thrives best when he is driven by something, what the cause of the drive is varies in every person. Man thrives best in a cooperative society? How do you mean, thrives best in what way?

We rose to the top of the food chain by being cooperative.We could not have overcome mammoths and sabertooths without our social skills.It is true our competitiveness played a role in our survival as well.It has also kept us on the brink of war for millenia.We must overcome some of our biological imperatives if we are to survive.Those who are poor and disenfranchised deserve chance to live too.Workers should be considered an asset by companies not a liability.No company can make money without them

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Br Cornelius

Man thrives best when he is driven by something, what the cause of the drive is varies in every person. Man thrives best in a cooperative society? How do you mean, thrives best in what way?

Suffers least mental health issues would be a very good indicator of thriving.

As I just pointed out in my other comment, the societies which have the strongest social bonds between individuals and families and tribes are those with the best stability, mental health and long term viability.

Modern society has been in existence for as short a time as half a millennium and in that time it has despoiled fairly much everything it has touched (ask any native American for an opinion on that) and is threatening the viability of all human life as a consequence. The model of social darwinism has a terrible track record for producing positive social outcomes.

I am far from been a primitavist, but point to those societies with the most cooperative philosophies as been the most socially stable and relatively the best places to live.

Br Cornelius

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Terian

Oh - prove it wrong?

Well I am the newb and am not really qualified to "prove" anything. But I will try.

I think what BR Cornelius was trying to say that it is just a way of life we choose to live and find justification in it. Kind of the old "if it's not broke, don't fix it" idea. If it is working for oyu, you see no need for a different approach.

But we are social creatures. Mankind, in general, needs each other to survive. Had we not, we would not have gathered in to tribes then villages, towns and cities. Everyone would be a farmer and a baker and a butcher and a blacksmith. But we are not made that way.

We also have the capacity to overcome our base animal instincts "mine-mine-mine" and "me-me-me" are not social traits. We have managed to overcome our base animal instincts to a point when it comes to mating and procreation. We find it to be criminal and socially unacceptable for a guy to grab your wife or daughter and have sex with her on the street...though this IS an animal instinct.

We can overcome these dark traits. The funny part is that so many things are deemed acceptable and they really are animalistic. "Might makes right" and "the end justifies the means" are not good qualities.

"Taking" more than you need just because you can does not make you "good" or "better" than the next guy. It just means you are a stronger predator. Congratulations for being able and willing to prey on the weak and those that are struggling.

I am out of my league in this argument, I just think greed is wrong and hurts far more than the few it benefits and I personally have a problem with it.

We could have a wonderful society driven by the search for knowledge, the desire to explore and discover. Instead, we kick and punch each other so someone can have a little more than the next person. We will never achieve our full capacity or capability until we acknowledge the traits and faults that are holding us back.

Oh well. I know, I'm just one of those bleeding hearts.

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spacecowboy342

I wish a few more hearts would learn to bleed.

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TSS

Modern society has been in existence for as short a time as half a millennium and in that time it has despoiled fairly much everything it has touched (ask any native American for an opinion on that) and is threatening the viability of all human life as a consequence. The model of social darwinism has a terrible track record for producing positive social outcomes.

Greater life expectancy in the Western world, greater care of the elderly since in non westernised countries the focus is on the younger generations and programmes relating to it, the chances of one man being killed by another is at it's lowest in history, greater standard of living then ever before, more opportunity then any generation previously, unlimited opportunity in achieving a personal aim/goal (limited only by a persons desire to achieve it)..and on and on...modern society is just awful isn't it....

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Frank Merton

Bleeding hearts is just foolishness. Informed compassion applied carefully and with regard for the long-term is needed. It's more difficult, but just remember that helping others too much can create dependency and there are many perfectly happy to live off your generosity.

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spacecowboy342

Greater life expectancy in the Western world, greater care of the elderly since in non westernised countries the focus is on the younger generations and programmes relating to it, the chances of one man being killed by another is at it's lowest in history, greater standard of living then ever before, more opportunity then any generation previously, unlimited opportunity in achieving a personal aim/goal (limited only by a persons desire to achieve it)..and on and on...modern society is just awful isn't it....

And yet China is the number one economy in the world while we are in decline,

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Frank Merton

And yet China is the number one economy in the world while we are in decline,

The US is not in decline economically. It is just not growing as fast.

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