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danielost

raising minimum wage does not reduce poverty

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TSS

And yet China is the number one economy in the world while we are in decline,

..and works it's people into the ground and treats them as numbers. Yes the western world can always improve, we know that, social darwinism gets a lot of flake from certain quaters on here...yet it's constantly and consistently improved from day one - from working practises to the employees themselves. Us workers today don't know we're born when you compare us to the workers of say the 1800's....and 200 yrs from now it'll no doubt be different again.

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F3SS

Well anyway, I guess they were probably thinking along the same lines as you just mentioned about some of the employee's you hired in the past...I don't know. I guess they've been screwed over by quite a few employees in the past and just had this assuming attitude that all potential new hires were worthless until proven otherwise, or until an employee has worked for them a while. But it was just the way they came off about it, just seem so cold and inhuman at times, you know?

Absolutely man. Employers get shafted and it's just as wrong as an employee getting screwed. You think employers don't care about their workers? Well, when you are an employer you really get to see who's priorities are where. Employees can no will take a huge dump on you at any given time. Not all of them but, yea ok yes all of them at some point or another but most don't make a habit of it. I have had guys lie, cheat and steal from me and my customers, exaggerate their hours and steal my time in other ways, try to take business from me so they could do it 'on the side', break my tools and deny it, call off at terrible times for terrible reasons, quit without notice, show up unreasonably late or not at all, make mistakes which is not so bad in itself but then lie about it or pass the buck, talk trash on me, show up drunk or show up high, cause scenes, have fits. Phew! Each instance has its own story or stories but I digress. Now, it looks like I run an awful company but these are mostly sporadic instances accumulated over several years and most everybody attached to an instance has been fired.

So yea, employers are cautious and some have probably been hardened over time to the point where they're all business and don't care to chit chat. Being honest, my non-confrontational personality is my biggest management draw back and is probably the sole reason I have had so many of these issues. Everybody knows they can get away with a lot. I always give people more chance than they deserve but Eventually though, I get the last laugh and it's actually kind of funny to fire someone over very obvious reasons and see them act flabbergasted. It's hard for me not to be friendly but it does spoil the employees sometimes because when I do get mad they act like I'm some kind of tyrant when in fact I have never actually screamed at anyone. I've been demanding and have sworn a few times but in all actuality they could have it much worse.

You seem like you have a good work ethic/personality though. I've had terrible bosses myself in the past but you've got to have thick skin and to be honest from my experiences the worst bosses with the biggest god complexes seemed to have anger about their mediocre position in their middle age life. I like to take satisfaction that I have now surpassed their success. The nastiest boss I ever had when I worked at a print shop used to be highly abusive to many who worked there and would often laugh ignorantly when I talked about my possible future. He'd say 'you came here from a grocery store and now you're just an intern for me' as if to scoff at any chance of success. The payoff now is that he was released years ago from that job and is now stocking shelves at the very same grocery chain he made so much fun of me for working at when I was just a teenager. He's in his fifties and now does exactly what I did when I was 19 and it's the local store I shop in a lot. I have a small grin every time I see his miserable ass. Karma btch!

Disclaimer: I in no way mean to demean that type of work. But he did and now he does it and is probably making as much as I did as an intern for him 12 years ago.

Geez, I can go off. Sorry.

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spacecowboy342

The US is not in decline economically. It is just not growing as fast.

For us that is decline as our system is based on growing our way out of hard times.That's the whole theory behind the tax cuts for the rich. We have been following this policy more or less since the Reagan revolution back in 1980, and yet things keep getting worse. Perhaps the theory is flawed?

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F3SS

Greater life expectancy in the Western world, greater care of the elderly since in non westernised countries the focus is on the younger generations and programmes relating to it, the chances of one man being killed by another is at it's lowest in history, greater standard of living then ever before, more opportunity then any generation previously, unlimited opportunity in achieving a personal aim/goal (limited only by a persons desire to achieve it)..and on and on...modern society is just awful isn't it....

Absolutely. We have come quite far. The bleeding hearts just don't realize that our world population is so enormous and is a big reason why things look so grim if you are looking strictly at hard numbers.

..and works it's people into the ground and treats them as numbers. Yes the western world can always improve, we know that, social darwinism gets a lot of flake from certain quaters on here...yet it's constantly and consistently improved from day one - from working practises to the employees themselves. Us workers today don't know we're born when you compare us to the workers of say the 1800's....and 200 yrs from now it'll no doubt be different again.

I said it before. This whole thread is nothing but a first world problem.

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spacecowboy342

..and works it's people into the ground and treats them as numbers. Yes the western world can always improve, we know that, social darwinism gets a lot of flake from certain quaters on here...yet it's constantly and consistently improved from day one - from working practises to the employees themselves. Us workers today don't know we're born when you compare us to the workers of say the 1800's....and 200 yrs from now it'll no doubt be different again.

Isn't that what you want here?Get rid of minimum wage and all regs on businesses and let the rich get back to exploiting everyone as is their due,right?

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Frank Merton

I think with certain reforms the US could grow much more rapidly, but I think the same about China. China is coming up from a low base so a period of more rapid growth percentage-wise doesn't really mean that much.

Remember that China has three times the population of the US with a third the economy. Even when China tops the US sometime this century it will still be poor compared to the US.

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TSS

Isn't that what you want here?Get rid of minimum wage and all regs on businesses and let the rich get back to exploiting everyone as is their due,right?

No, you just haven't been reading the posts, and instead chose to think this is a choice of extremes. I'm all for regulation (up to a point)...my points have been about being told what wage I should offer for any given job. This is an idea dreamt up by people who do not run small business's, and have no idea how this stops jobs being offered in the first place.

If I can pay someone who hasn't got work, which helps them out and helps grow the business so I can then up their wages at a later date - who are you (or anyone else) to tell me I can't offer that job, or the person that wants to work for me can't have that job because it doesn't pay what you think it should?

Edit - corrected one word.

Edited by Sky Scanner
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spacecowboy342

No, you just haven't been reading the posts, and instead chose to think this is a choice of extremes. I'm all for regulation (up to a point)...my points have been about being told what wage I should offer for any given job. This is an idea dreamt up by people who do not run small business's, and have no idea how this stops jobs being offered in the first place.

If I can pay someone who hasn't got work, which helps them out and helps grow the business so I can then up their wages at a later date - who are you (or anyone else) to tell me I can offer that job, or the person that wants to work for me can't have that job because it doesn't pay what you think it should?

Perhaps you have a point.Perhaps small businesses as you describe should be made exempt from the minimum wage law.I worked once for a short time for a mom and pop type sign business. They were not required to pay overtime for over 40 hours because they had only 2 employees. In a case like that paying less than minimum could be an option and if someone needed a job bad enough they would agree. But large companies with billions in assets could easily pay more than they do and still make money.Perhaps better paid workers would be more productive and offset the difference

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F3SS

Sky, 4800 posts and I've never heard of you yet you make so much sense. Where have you been?

Isn't that what you want here?Get rid of minimum wage and all regs on businesses and let the rich get back to exploiting everyone as is their due,right?

Why do you always insist on telling people they want or say things they've never asked for or said? Makes it very hard to have these talks with you. Otherwise you have valid points of view worth talking about even though we won't agree but it's things like that that make it hard to push the conversation along.

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F3SS

Perhaps you have a point.Perhaps small businesses as you describe should be made exempt from the minimum wage law.I worked once for a short time for a mom and pop type sign business. They were not required to pay overtime for over 40 hours because they had only 2 employees. In a case like that paying less than minimum could be an option and if someone needed a job bad enough they would agree. But large companies with billions in assets could easily pay more than they do and still make money.Perhaps better paid workers would be more productive and offset the difference

That's not always true. Take Walmart for example. They make mega billions in profit but if they spread the profit around to all 2 million employees they could only achieve an extra $1/hr for every employee. Perhaps a little more but definitely not $2/hr not to mention the inability to keep the company afloat due to no working capital.

Edited by F3SS
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spacecowboy342

Sky, 4800 posts and I've never heard of you yet you make so much sense. Where have you been?

Why do you always insist on telling people they want or say things they've never asked for or said? Makes it very hard to have these talks with you. Otherwise you have valid points of view worth talking about even though we won't agree but it's things like that that make it hard to push the conversation along.

I am just trying to extrapolate from what is said.If my conclusions are incorrect then by all means correct me.The same has been done to me on other threads where I have been accused of being a communist because I think in America no one should go hungry or be without medical care. I am no communist and I think enterprise and excellence should be rewarded.I just don't see how raising the minimum wage to where people can make a living is going to be the end of free enterprise.

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TSS

Sky, 4800 posts and I've never heard of you yet you make so much sense. Where have you been?

Where have I been? Working of course lol :P ....I go through phases on here, i'm in the calm before the storm with work hence being on here more the last few weeks...as of next thursday I have 3 existing contracts that kick back in till xmas, so I won't be on here at all. Similarly though, you have a similar amount of posts yet I can't remember seeing your name around before.

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spacecowboy342

That's not always true. Take Walmart for example. They make mega billions in profit but if they spread the profit around to all 2 million employees they could only achieve an extra $1/hr for every employee. Perhaps a little more but definitely not $2/hr not to mention the inability to keep the company afloat due to no working capital.

I don't know the details of Wal-Marts operation,but no working capital?Seriously?Did I not read that Sam Walton's children together had more money than the bottom 50% of America put together?How is it Wal-Mart has no working capital?

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F3SS

I am just trying to extrapolate from what is said.If my conclusions are incorrect then by all means correct me.The same has been done to me on other threads where I have been accused of being a communist because I think in America no one should go hungry or be without medical care. I am no communist and I think enterprise and excellence should be rewarded.I just don't see how raising the minimum wage to where people can make a living is going to be the end of free enterprise.

I remember that thread and you were spouting socialist ideas and I definitely may have said you were a socialist but iirc you kept labeling yourself a communist on everybodies behalf. No need to extrapolate which is a fancy word for "assume" in this context. If you are unsure, inquire further. Your assumptions just seem to go to far. As much as I can I try to say all that I can say and have it all mean exactly what I say it means but if you are unsure, again, inquire.

Aside, what good is a 'living wage' when the prices go up accordingly and everyone ends up back at square one soon enough?

I always wonder this... If our method of currency and its constant devaluation continue indefinitely where ones that leave us in 150 years? $85 minimum wage and $70 value meals at McDonald's? I don't know how it all works but if there's a constant increase in everything, after so many years it's got to become unsustainable. So we either need to straighten our economics out or change it entirely or else it will have to necessarily crash and burn.

Where have I been? Working of course lol :P ....I go through phases on here, i'm in the calm before the storm with work hence being on here more the last few weeks...as of next thursday I have 3 existing contracts that kick back in till xmas, so I won't be on here at all. Similarly though, you have a similar amount of posts yet I can't remember seeing your name around before.

Oh I've been right here in the US threads pretty consistently as long as I've been here. I used to visit ghost and pyramid threads but this site has taken the fun out of believing in ghosts and I've learned that the pyramid threads are full of intelligent people far more interested than I and that there was only so much I could ask or add which was pretty much nothing. I was far happier in those conversations asking silly questions with wide eyed wonder.

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F3SS

I don't know the details of Wal-Marts operation,but no working capital?Seriously?Did I not read that Sam Walton's children together had more money than the bottom 50% of America put together?How is it Wal-Mart has no working capital?

I didn't say that, lol. I said that applied in the events that they just shared all their profits and wealth with all 2 million employees. Basically, the point was that scratching all profits would not help the entire staff all that much and that it would run the business into the ground thereby eliminating 2 million jobs and the cheapest place around for broke folks to shop.

Edited by F3SS
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spacecowboy342

The only socialist idea I recall was socialized medicine and I still believe it is a good idea.Right now insurance companies and banks have the country in a stranglehold and nothing is ever done without their ok.I never claimed to be a communist or a socialist for that matter.I think free enterprise is best just not unregulated free enterprise. I lived in Japan for a year and I saw the conditions their poor lived in while their wealthy lived like feudal lords.It just seems we should be able to have free enterprise and still provide a safety net for those who need help.I personally know of old ladies on fixed incomes who have literally had to make a choice between buying food or medicine.I find this despicable in the richest country in the world.Does this make me a socialist?I am no economist or political scientist but I know right from wrong and this is wrong

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spacecowboy342

I didn't say that, lol. I said that applied in the events that they just shared all their profits and wealth with all 2 million employees. Basically, the point was that scratching all profits would not help the entire staff all that much and that it would run the business into the ground thereby eliminating 2 million jobs and the cheapest place around for broke folks to shop.

Maybe you are right.Actually I believe Wal-Mart pays their employees pretty well.Although it seems after Wal-Mart runs all their competition from mom and pop stores out of business it seems their prices rise and they are no longer quite as cheap
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F3SS

Maybe you are right.Actually I believe Wal-Mart pays their employees pretty well.Although it seems after Wal-Mart runs all their competition from mom and pop stores out of business it seems their prices rise and they are no longer quite as cheap

They do make it hard for competition no doubt but you can't deny that the shot callers behind the scenes are business genius', well Sam Walton at least was. You don't get to be the worlds largest private employer for nothing. The problem giant businesses face, well not a problem for them really, but the dilemma is that when a company starts growing it's kind of hard to say 'alright, we are big enough now and we can stop'. It couldn't have happened without consumer consent and the customer is always right.

Edited by F3SS

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spacecowboy342

They do make it hard for competition no doubt but you can't deny that the shot callers behind the scenes are business genius', well Sam Walton at least was. You don't get to be the worlds largest private employer for nothing. The problem giant businesses face, well not a problem for them really, but the dilemma is that when a company starts growing it's kind of hard to say 'alright, we are big enough now and we can stop'. It couldn't have happened without consumer consent and the customer is always right.

This is true.Who is going to say no to cheaper prices?I would agree that Sam Walton knew his business
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Br Cornelius

Greater life expectancy in the Western world, greater care of the elderly since in non westernised countries the focus is on the younger generations and programmes relating to it, the chances of one man being killed by another is at it's lowest in history, greater standard of living then ever before, more opportunity then any generation previously, unlimited opportunity in achieving a personal aim/goal (limited only by a persons desire to achieve it)..and on and on...modern society is just awful isn't it....

In many non-western societies if you survive to adolescence your chance of a long life is quite high. Older people are integrated into social structures and remain productive into very old age - they are not shunted off to live in isolated retirement dependent on faceless youth to pay their pensions. I think you are very wrong about the relative importance placed on the young between developed and developing countries.

Overall though, rapacious growth has caused an unsustainable society with a very short life expectancy. This is in comparison to societies which have remained stable and prosperous for many thousands of years.

As I said, I am no primitivist, but I think that modern society is sick at the core and cannot continue in its present form without destroying the things it depends on to survive. Capitalism is eating its children to make a buck and is in something of a crisis which has no intrinsic solution within the philosophy other than a cyclic near total collapse and reinvention. This is wasteful at every level.

Br Cornelius

Edited by Br Cornelius

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Frank Merton

There are two kids of capitalism -- monopoly capitalism and competitive capitalism. The first if big and fat and greedy and able to treat employees well but never does, the second is thin and lean and works hard and can't afford to be too generous to its employees. The second type is always trying to find a way to become the first type.

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TSS

In many non-western societies if you survive to adolescence your chance of a long life is quite high. Older people are integrated into social structures and remain productive into very old age - they are not shunted off to live in isolated retirement dependent on faceless youth to pay their pensions. I think you are very wrong about the relative importance placed on the young between developed and developing countries.

I don't have time to address the whole post this evening (I will if time allows tomorrow though), but I don't believe I am wrong about the above. This is worth a read:

http://www.wwu.edu/culture/Eyetsemitan1.htm

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danielost

Maybe you are right.Actually I believe Wal-Mart pays their employees pretty well.Although it seems after Wal-Mart runs all their competition from mom and pop stores out of business it seems their prices rise and they are no longer quite as cheap

Come on you can't believe that they are dropping prices without raising hem on something else.

A friend of mine was in a clothing store a day before a big sale and on the day of it. He noticed that not only did the prices not go down they had gone up.

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danielost

There are two kids of capitalism -- monopoly capitalism and competitive capitalism. The first if big and fat and greedy and able to treat employees well but never does, the second is thin and lean and works hard and can't afford to be too generous to its employees. The second type is always trying to find a way to become the first type.

Monopolies never survive, because they lose their drive. They don't inovate.

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spacecowboy342

Monopolies never survive, because they lose their drive. They don't inovate.

Monopolies are illegal. If this were not the case Standard Oil would rule the world

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