The disappearance of Ray Gricar

[Saunterer]

I know ... you are all waiting on me to be banned from WS. I can hardly believe I am still a member there. Here is some sage advice (final warning) to me from the ridiculous, pandering **** that protects the blogger dude over there:

"Hey Saunterer - let's try this one more time.

You need to stop poking at other posters. It is not your job. If you are here just to stir the pot, then please move on. If you want to have a serious discussion, then stop stirring the pot.

The blog that you don't like has been linked in Ray's threads for some time now and is an approved blog. Other posters may read there and it is up to them to use their OWN critical thinking skills to determine how much weight they want to give the info posted there. It is NOT up to you to tell them.

This is your last warning. You are welcome here and your opinion is welcome. But your baiting and stirring is not welcome and it won't be tolerated. Think about that for a minute because if you don't stay and put forth other ideas, then there will only be one train of thought, huh? You can post and get your message across without attacking others.

Salem"

How does one fight for truth in any forum where the admin approves of a slanderous blog that absolutely defames Ray Gricar? Good going SS. Keep going SS, because I have been clearly blackballed!

[Saunterer]

I cannot 'sneeze' over there without the admin knowing and somehow construing it as a TOS violation. Reckless disregard for the truth and, therefore, total disrespect for the missing DA, Ray Gricar.

[SuperSmith]

Yes you have struck a strange cord over there. Wonder if some PMs were thrown Salems way

[Saunterer]

You can bet my 5 day time out over there was because of some @sshole over here ... and the fact that Salem is not a friend.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Saunterer

[2-B]

What date did you pick? I can swing it your way if you promise to split the take with me. I think 70/30 me/you is fair, not?

Fair enough. I'm giving you till Halloween. That may be optimistic, depending on the grape.

[2-B]

Leathers, Billy Joe. But the suicide note and excited utterance in the bar thingies were always questionable.

At the risk of sounding like someone else, "my LE sources" (credible) support the alleged bar excited utterance as having occurred. Which of course is not to say BJL actually had anything to do with Ray's disappearance.

[2-B]

How does one fight for truth in any forum where the admin approves of a slanderous blog that absolutely defames Ray Gricar? Good going SS. Keep going SS, because I have been clearly blackballed!

I was stunned to read that Blogville was an approved blog, whatever that is. That made me want to scream, "Approved on what basis? Has anyone there actually evaluated any of those entries for factual accuracy or logical fallacies?"

The notion that readers can make up their minds re Blogville's value has not been a successful one. The Sheeple follow when sporadic rebuttal is disallowed.

The head of Blogville today is correcting a new poster who read that the Mini Cooper "reeked" of smoke. That, indeed, was the initial characterization of what LE witnessed when they first opened the Mini, so much so that we had the now infamous comment re first thinking RG had been off on a bender, or words to that effect, given the cigarette butts and the smoke smell. Over time that morphed into "slight smell of cigarette smoke," perhaps to mirror DZ's leaning n the window theory adapted from CB's visions. How strong was the odor? I DON'T KNOW. But neither does anyone else other than LE, and so the balanced picture of the morphing needs to be presented.

Likewise, the new poster has raised the issue of hard drive destruction by water as questionable and an anecdote re physical destruction of a hard drive. That's being countered by the so often repeated and INACCURATE claim that reading on the Internet would have led RG to choose water as a method of eliminating data on a drive. That goes unchallenged thus far.

Just two examples. The most egregious example this morning started 11/5/11, with the colossal lapse in judgment descriptor and continues with the "nothing illegal or unethical....so far" mantra. That kind of thing needs factual balance.

Edited September 25, 2013 by 2-B

[Saunterer]

At the risk of sounding like someone else, "my LE sources" (credible) support the alleged bar excited utterance as having occurred. Which of course is not to say BJL actually had anything to do with Ray's disappearance.

I can confirm the above (likely from the same credible source).

One thing I think I have never seen is the letter to the editor of the CDT, by Ray Gricar, in regard to the charges against BJL that were dropped. I was/am too poor to pay for it.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Saunterer

[SuperSmith]

Just an observation.

July 24th, 2005 the CDT printed this article for Sunday paper readers. http://www.centredaily.com/2005/07/24/3790/gricar-mystery-fading-from-memories.html

Bennett- "Detectives have had less and less presence in the area as the time has gone by, but Bennett did notice plain-clothes agents nosing around one day within the past month."

August 2, 2005 the CDT printed this article for Tuesdays paper.

http://www.centredaily.com/2005/08/02/3791/gricars-laptop-found.html

Week later the laptop is found. Interesting I think.

[Saunterer]

Any blogger that refuses, minimalizes or outright rejects dissenting opinion ... together with a "this is my blog, get your own damn blog if you do not like it" type response to criticism ... is a blog to be universally avoided. So why does Websleuths not only not prohibit a poster there from linking to his egregious blogsite, but tells me that it is an approved blogsite? WTF? I respect the fact that admins have one of the worse online jobs imaginable. They can (and do) control the flow.

But I have absolutely no respect for the admin over there (Salem). To tell me that "The blog that you don't like has been linked in Ray's threads for some time now and is an approved blog" is absolutely unacceptable ... for reasons that Salem, and therefore Websleuths, must be held accountable.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Saunterer

[Saunterer]

Just an observation.

July 24th, 2005 the CDT printed this article for Sunday paper readers. http://www.centredai...m-memories.html

Bennett- "Detectives have had less and less presence in the area as the time has gone by, but Bennett did notice plain-clothes agents nosing around one day within the past month."

August 2, 2005 the CDT printed this article for Tuesdays paper.

http://www.centredai...ptop-found.html

Week later the laptop is found. Interesting I think.

*Month or so later a hard drive matching Gricar's laptop is found. Me thinks you are confused SS ... although, this came from WKOK news, 8/2/05:

"LEWISBURG - Just two days after the laptop of missing Centre County District Attorney Ray Gricar was found in the Susquehanna River without a hard drive, sources tell WKOK that the hard drive has been found. Sources, who wish to remain anonymous, tell us that the hard drive was found this afternoon underneath the river bridge in West Milton, upriver from where the laptop was discovered by two fishermen over the weekend.

Meanwhile, psychic profiler Carla Baron, who has been assisting in the case, says that cadaver dogs and search crews have been going over an area in Lewisburg that Baron described in her readings. She says the searches have been going on for almost two weeks and have been kept under the radar to protect everyone involved............(Sara Lauver)."

Unfortunately, that hard drive (if it ever existed) did not fit Gricar's laptop. And Carla Baron's crack crew (known to me as Lauver's unnamed source) came up with nothing at all related to Gricar's disappearance. But I watched them from a distance, not wanting to interfere or possibly "poison the fruit", lol.

Edited September 25, 2013 by Saunterer

[SuperSmith]

No I'm not confused I don't think. The late July article by the CDT indicated that not much was happening with the case and low and behold the week later the laptop is found. Hard drive wasn't found till October right? Read the two articles. Almost as if whomever responsible for the location of the laptop planted it to toy with LE and the media

[Saunterer]

No I'm not confused I don't think. The late July article by the CDT indicated that not much was happening with the case and low and behold the week later the laptop is found. Hard drive wasn't found till October right? Read the two articles. Almost as if whomever responsible for the location of the laptop planted it to toy with LE and the media

My bad. You are correct. Just wanted to add the absurd infusion of Carla Baron and her local K9 connection at the time.

[Saunterer]

You know ... I have often thought about what ifs. What if the family, or LE, or the press for that matter, had just been a little more trusting, a little more up front with the truth when it mattered most. OK, despite the fact that Ray Gricar is still officially considered as just a missing person, the recent investigation of some possible criminal connection preserves LE's legal right to continue to refuse the release of Ray Gricar's file.

But LE is not prohibited from releasing file information indicating that the Ray Gricar investigation is, in fact, an ongoing criminal investigation. Apparently few people in the pubic domain realize that, probably because since 2006 all LE has been willing to really talk about is intentional walkaway stuff.

Edited September 26, 2013 by Saunterer

[SuperSmith]

My hope is that Detective R submits the case to the newly formed Cold Case unit for which is a governing member. However, with the recent Angels story I have to wonder whether Chief SW would intervene again to shoot it down. Not sure how that would work.

[SuperSmith]

To submit a case for our expert panel to review, please email:

kennethmains@aisocc.com

https://www.aisocc.com/home.html

Anyone want to step to the plate and submit RG's case?

[SuperSmith]

Well I guess I have joined S1 in the time out chair over on WS. Funny how you can be polite as can be but as soon as you show that J.J. post inaccurate information, post the evidence of it, that a poster gets kicked to the curb. I wasn't even afforded the courtesy of an email from the Admin.

[2-B]

S and SS: I've watched the evolution of Over Yonder for 17 years. Under original ownership and different philosophy of moderation, it was once much like CL, a place where all viewpoints were welcome, including dissenting ones. If arguments became very heated to the point of true nastiness, they were moved to a sub-forum called The Parking Lot, where registered members (but not the unregistered public) had access to them. The moderation was carried out with wisdom and fairness. The sale of the forum and its rise in media visibility via the JBR case changed things forever Over Yonder. I had long since parted ways with the group but occasionally followed some of the in-fighting, splitting off, turbulence, politics, and cliques that IMO destroyed what had once been a decent place to post on the Ramsey case. From what I can see today only following the RG thread there, things are still turbulent because of over-moderation and favorite-playing. Yes, a moderator's job is thankless, but playing favorites, being inconsistent in applying TOS, and trying to micro-manage every word on a thread makes a moderator's job harder and, worse, makes the discussion far less productive for everyone involved.

Political correctness threatens the democratic notion of free speech that the Internet was heralded as promoting: a market place of ideas with a democratizing leveling effect, where every voice would have as much chance to be heard as the next. Over-moderation threatens that. So does the CDT's latest move to requiring Facebook login for comment--who from Penn State wants his/her anti-BOT comments associated with real identity when we've seen what happened to Jeff Byers?

Two slightly different versions of the same issue, I suppose. But there's a nexus: Blogville has been able to operate for years anonymously and without accountability on CDT pages, gaining CDT "respectability" to the point that people link to it as a source. It's an approved blog (whatever that means) and thus can be pedaled by its writer despite otherwise being a TOS violation Over Yonder.

Yet it is riddled with factual, scientific, and logical inaccuracies. Worse yet, it has single-handedly driven the degradation of Ray Gricar's character and integrity long before the 1998 case was a known issue.

That you two have been silenced over there is offensive for that reason. I'm sure we'll hear screams of "legacy protection," so let me beat those cries to the punch with the reminder that desire for accuracy and truth is not equivalent to legacy protection.

//End today's rant, w/ apologies.

Edited September 26, 2013 by 2-B

[SuperSmith]

I haven't been kicked off but the page has been submitted for "review". I contacted Salem and he indicated I was singling out a certain poster. I had only pointed out to the blogger that because "he says so" or because something was "hinted" does not make it a fact in a case and really should be kept to the vest. His contention is that there is with 100% certainty an eye witness to Gricar in Lewisburg carrying his laptop around. I have never heard of that or seen that written by anyone but him. If I am wrong I will admit it but he has yet to show me proof. He says he "knows" it and others have hinted to it.

Edited September 26, 2013 by SuperSmith

[Bay Harbor Butcher]

Hi everyone,

I have long been a reader but didn't see fit on expressing my opinions. I can't get into the Web Sleuths page anymore either and have no idea why that is.

It's kind of weird that people don't accept or even consider other's views. I have talked with a few people in "the know" about the case but don't have anything to add that hasn't been mentioned before.

I hope we hear some more about this Hells Angel's lead eventhough it seems like it isn't going anywhere.

Hope to add something to this conversation but think people are wasting too much time talking about the infamous "blogger" haha.

[SuperSmith]

BHB, thanks for joining in. Your thoughts and theories are always welcome here so have no fear. After I got locked out I emailed the adminstrators and I was the reason for the lock out apparently. I called out a certain poster for his inaccurate postings and backed it up with information. I was spanked for it but after pleading my case I was directed here.

http://www.websleuths.com/forums/showthread.php?p=9863216#post9863216

[Bay Harbor Butcher]

haha I have seen the back and forth between you two in the past. I have spoken with him before, I understand he can be very strong with his opinions but I just like to see that people care so much about this case. I have gone back and forth with my feelings on what actually happened to Ray and even wanted to visit the Street of Shoppes itself just to get an idea for how easy it would be to abduct someone without it being seen. This case has some parallels to the John Glasgow case which is equally frustrating.

Anyway I'm just glad to finally post something after reading everyone else's thoughts and opinions for the past 2 years.

SuperSmith what is your current theory on what took place with Ray?

[SuperSmith]

haha I have seen the back and forth between you two in the past. I have spoken with him before, I understand he can be very strong with his opinions but I just like to see that people care so much about this case. I have gone back and forth with my feelings on what actually happened to Ray and even wanted to visit the Street of Shoppes itself just to get an idea for how easy it would be to abduct someone without it being seen. This case has some parallels to the John Glasgow case which is equally frustrating.

Anyway I'm just glad to finally post something after reading everyone else's thoughts and opinions for the past 2 years.

SuperSmith what is your current theory on what took place with Ray?

I believe Ray was winding down his career. Gearing up for retirement and was especially busy trying to tie up his cases before the end of the year. I believe he took that Friday off to relax and go for a drive. I do not know if he made it to Lewisburg or not but his car, laptop, and hard drive did. I believe he was being monitored. I believe he stumbled upon something around the time of his disappearance that threw him for a loop. Perhaps the Friday off was to gain some perspective on it. If he did make it himself to Lewisburg I believe he was coached into another vehicle by threat. His scent was around his car but from what I understand his scent could have simply traveled from the Mini by opening and closing the door. I do not believe he was in the Street of Shops as the scent dogs confirm that. I do not believe the laptop and hard drive were in their resting places until AFTER the searches of the river were conducted. I believe he was taken to a secluded place, interrogated possibly, and disposed of. I think there is more than one perp involved and that they were quit familar with Ray. The Hells Angel story perked my ears up because I could envision that scenario quit easily but it was shot down pretty quickly. I believe that whomever is behind this has great influence because I do not think the investigation was carried out per normal protocol. It seems has if the investigation was coached. I believe his body is obviously well hidden and unless someone squeals we will never know the answers.

A couple of things I am stuck on is one the laptop. Did he take it with him that day? Was it stolen from his home? Either way I see it as them thrown in the location they were as a diversion to law enforcement. It has made everyone believe that he wanted to get rid it and walk away. Someone as intelligent as Ray, if his intention was to walk away, wouldn't make such a critical mistake.

Two is the timeline. The sightings have clouded the case. The Fenton sighting at the courthouse around 3:30pm bugs me a great deal. All the sightings in Lewisburg etc. Its hard to pinpoint an actual time of when he did disappear.

Three is the yellow flowers that were said to have been found by the river in an orange juice carton. What signicance if any?

Foul play is the only scenario I envision UNLESS he was threatened that harm would come to his family if he didn't leave Bellefonte.

I also believe the Sandusky affair could play a part in this as well.

[Bay Harbor Butcher]

Have you been to the Street of Shoppes before?

i won't ask specifics but you have spoken with people that have inside knowledge of the case, right?

[SuperSmith]

Found this today. You veterans can expand on this if you can remember.

"Q: Was a search done along state Route 192, the road Gricar said he was on when he was last heard from?

A: Bellefonte police officer Darrel Zaccagni said both state Route 192 and state Route 45 were searched soon after Gricar was reported missing on April 15. A few people came forward and said they saw a red-and-white Mini Cooper -- the same type of car Gricar was driving when he disappeared -- in the area on April 15 and 16, but police could not confirm that the car seen was actually Gricar's.

At least one person reportedly saw the Mini Cooper leaving a stone quarry located along Route 192 about a mile from where the car was found in a Lewisburg parking lot. Zaccagni said police have searched the quarry twice and have talked to quarry workers there, some of whom said they also remember seeing a Mini Cooper driving away from the quarry.

The quarry has two small, shallow sludge ponds, but nothing unusual was found there, Zaccagni said. Bellefonte police officers also walked through a small wooded area near the quarry but found nothing out of the ordinary there, either."