The disappearance of Ray Gricar

[2-B]

Yes, I get alerts to message boards if key words are mentioned.

I can't imagine it being word of mouth, but possible, I guess.

JMO

Interesting. Wonder why in all this time with Gricar as one of my alert words I've never been taken to CTV, In Session, Crime Library, Over Yonder, here, or some of the minor boards as far as Gricar is concerned? I guess the closest I've come would be links to PB's old Q&A and some blog by some guy.

[SuperSmith]

Very doubtful but thought I'd post since its fairly close.

http://republicanherald.com/news/forensic-team-searches-area-in-new-castle-township-1.1659601

http://wnep.com/2014/03/28/hikers-find-human-remains-in-schuylkill-county/

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/03/hikers_discover_skeletal_human.html#incart_river_default

[SuperSmith]

I cannot think of a good reason why this inmate (Hells Angel) would lie about knowledge of and the location of Ray Gricar's body and how his murder unfolded. Being that the accused was an informant for the FBI it makes sense that this inmate (being an HA member himself) would want to get back at the individual for being an informant. Ratting out a rat pretty much. I see this inmate having little to gain otherwise as he was going to be up for parole in a short period of time anyway. The fear of incriminating himself regarding the body dump adds credibility to me and any immunity granted would be written as such that Gricar's body would indeed be found for the immunity to be granted.

Edited March 31, 2014 by SuperSmith

[2-B]

http://www.centredaily.com/2014/03/29/4110646/our-view-time-for-report-on-kanes.html?sp=/99/145/

Comments with this Chip Minemeyer editorial on Kane's investigation of TC's investigation of JS are absolutely priceless. Multiple posters take Blogger Boy to school. Some of my favorite avenues he's taken along:

1. He's accused of being a shill for TC. (Mmmmm..... :-) Could fit vwith the puppet/puppet master theme). In the same breath he's accused of shilling for years for a Ray Gricar walkaway theory.....

2. He's told by another poster to catch up on the facts.

3. My personal favorite from RB to JJ: "Quit making stuff up." Ha, ha. If I had a buck for every time I said that to JJ, I would be in competition with Mark Zuckerberg and Warren Buffett. Or at least Oprah.

Last, and this is the kicker, to support TC, he expends quite a few posts arguing that TC couldn't go to trial with only one complainant, and says that that complainant's three trips to the GJ may have occurred as a result of not enough or not compelling enough evidence to convince GJ members--so that TC's alleged delay may have been a desire to build a stronger case by finding other victims rather than going to trial with insufficient ammunition.

Does he even realize the irony and hypocrisy of what he's saying, Mr. Colossal Lapse in Judgment?

I think he likely does--and doesn't give a flying fig so long as he can fool most of the people most of the time.

[2-B]

I cannot think of a good reason why this inmate (Hells Angel) would lie about knowledge of and the location of Ray Gricar's body and how his murder unfolded. Being that the accused was an informant for the FBI it makes sense that this inmate (being an HA member himself) would want to get back at the individual for being an informant. Ratting out a rat pretty much. I see this inmate having little to gain otherwise as he was going to be up for parole in a short period of time anyway. The fear of incriminating himself regarding the body dump adds credibility to me and any immunity granted would be written as such that Gricar's body would indeed be found for the immunity to be granted.

I'm willing to buy all the many logical and sensible observations you've made re the HA angle. And it would certainly fit with lpshred's analysis of the reason for why the case was passed to the state police and why it was passed when it was, i. e., a criminal act within the bounds of PA.

If that's the scenario, however, who do you think is pulling Blogger Boy's strings and who has furnished him with certain pieces of information to push at certain junctures? For instance, why did he enter CTV pushing Mel Wiley? And why did he enter defending PF to the point of hysteria? If it's a HA scenario, do you just discard his role as irrelevant and discard him as some troll/nutcase?

Edited March 31, 2014 by 2-B

[2-B]

Very doubtful but thought I'd post since its fairly close.

http://republicanherald.com/news/forensic-team-searches-area-in-new-castle-township-1.1659601

http://wnep.com/2014/03/28/hikers-find-human-remains-in-schuylkill-county/

http://www.pennlive.com/midstate/index.ssf/2014/03/hikers_discover_skeletal_human.html#incart_river_default

Saw this over the weekend. Guess authorities are zeroing in on a local fellow who disappeared in 2011, but no solid confirmation yet.

[SuperSmith]

I'm willing to buy all the many logical and sensible observations you've made re the HA angle. And it would certainly fit with lpshred's analysis of the reason for why the case was passed to the state police and why it was passed when it was, i. e., a criminal act within the bounds of PA.

If that's the scenario, however, who do you think is pulling Blogger Boy's strings and who has furnished him with certain pieces of information to push at certain junctures? For instance, why did he enter CTV pushing Mel Wiley? And why did he enter defending PF to the point of hysteria? If it's a HA scenario, do you just discard his role as irrelevant and discard him as some troll/nutcase?

I would say that perhaps they are all connected. Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps he is pushing chips around online for a Federal Agency? Would be pretty bad publicity for the public to learn of the demise of a County DA by an informant run by the FBI.

Also, it could be possible that the "big" drug bust of March 2005 directly involved drug trafficking of the HA club. Would be a bad PR move for the public to learn that the DA who was front & center during TC's show boating presser was offed by the same drug group.

Or SS could've owed the HA group money and offered up RG......who knows just all speculation on my part.

These are just scenarios and no hard evidence exists to substantiate them and your point is well taken 2-B.

[lpshred]

I would say that perhaps they are all connected. Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps he is pushing chips around online for a Federal Agency? Would be pretty bad publicity for the public to learn of the demise of a County DA by an informant run by the FBI.

Also, it could be possible that the "big" drug bust of March 2005 directly involved drug trafficking of the HA club. Would be a bad PR move for the public to learn that the DA who was front & center during TC's show boating presser was offed by the same drug group.

Or SS could've owed the HA group money and offered up RG......who knows just all speculation on my part.

These are just scenarios and no hard evidence exists to substantiate them and your point is well taken 2-B.

I've always thought if it was by HA, it was a contract job. HA was just doing the deed for someone else that wanted him gone. That said, what was so bad that they couldn't just let him retire and fade away? This makes me think of the non-support of MM in the DA race. Something like that could have upset TC's gang in the LE space.

Now that I write that, I think I'm with SS. I think HA had enough motivation on their own.

[SuperSmith]

I've always thought if it was by HA, it was a contract job. HA was just doing the deed for someone else that wanted him gone. That said, what was so bad that they couldn't just let him retire and fade away? This makes me think of the non-support of MM in the DA race. Something like that could have upset TC's gang in the LE space.

Now that I write that, I think I'm with SS. I think HA had enough motivation on their own.

If is related to the big drug bust it is retribution for lost money and sends a message.

If it is revenge it has no timeline and slow burning is in play.

If it is related to the Sandusky debacle it could be political.

If it is related to Sandusky and associates it could be to hide a child porn ring for which a lot of people would be covering their asses.

All of which could have involvement from the HA or former members

[lw-intuit]

We're now two weeks away from the 9th anniversary of RG's disappearance.

With the new lead in place, PSP, I am wondering if there might be an investigative reporter anywhere in Central PA who is going to ask questions regarding progress and push for an update for the public. Considering we had no update whatsoever from the SPM investigative team in years other than to tell us such a team existed, we heard nothing more. The public was never given the names of those on the team, or progress reports.

Is the new lead going to follow that same pattern and if they are, why no questions from local reporters? On the 9th anniversary, I would hope someone is willing to stand up for RG and ask some questions.

JMO

[2-B]

I would say that perhaps they are all connected. Has it ever crossed your mind that perhaps he is pushing chips around online for a Federal Agency?

Do you remember my Luna Redux Redux thread back on Crime Library, the one with the Venn diagram? That was done before the HA story broke, of course, and maybe before Sloane's drug bust, but sure I've contemplated what role he might play with Federavl chess pieces. A year or more before RG disappeared he was on Web Detectives, denigrating Luna the way he's denigrated RG, and arguing suicide by mini-stabs with a mini-knife in the groin. And attacking BK for using a vanity press rather than explaining that BK owned a small but respectable publishing company. So it was somewhat ironic that that he showed up discussing RG after BK wrote about RG and a drug theory (but missed or avoided any mention of Luna going after child porn connected to government folks, and argued vehemently against any connection or parallels between JL and RG).

Could there be an HA dot to connect in there somewhere? Maybe. But that wouldn't necessarily fit with anything that was told to the Altoona Mirror or anything passed to or dug up by BB, so I'd have to think more on that angle for a while.

[2-B]

We're now two weeks away from the 9th anniversary of RG's disappearance.

With the new lead in place, PSP, I am wondering if there might be an investigative reporter anywhere in Central PA who is going to ask questions regarding progress and push for an update for the public. Considering we had no update whatsoever from the SPM investigative team in years other than to tell us such a team existed, we heard nothing more. The public was never given the names of those on the team, or progress reports.

Is the new lead going to follow that same pattern and if they are, why no questions from local reporters? On the 9th anniversary, I would hope someone is willing to stand up for RG and ask some questions.

JMO

Too bad true investigative reporters are scarcer than hen's teeth these days, at least when it comes to MSM. Real investigative journalism is essentially dead, except as it exists in the hands of those brave maverick souls willing to go it alone and stake all they have in the pursuit of truth. Not many have that courage. /rant

That said, I expect nothing of value to come from the Centre Daily Times and even less from PN.

[SuperSmith]

Do you remember my Luna Redux Redux thread back on Crime Library, the one with the Venn diagram? That was done before the HA story broke, of course, and maybe before Sloane's drug bust, but sure I've contemplated what role he might play with Federavl chess pieces. A year or more before RG disappeared he was on Web Detectives, denigrating Luna the way he's denigrated RG, and arguing suicide by mini-stabs with a mini-knife in the groin. And attacking BK for using a vanity press rather than explaining that BK owned a small but respectable publishing company. So it was somewhat ironic that that he showed up discussing RG after BK wrote about RG and a drug theory (but missed or avoided any mention of Luna going after child porn connected to government folks, and argued vehemently against any connection or parallels between JL and RG).

Could there be an HA dot to connect in there somewhere? Maybe. But that wouldn't necessarily fit with anything that was told to the Altoona Mirror or anything passed to or dug up by BB, so I'd have to think more on that angle for a while.

It has been reported and books been written that the HA club (certain chapters) have done (others) bidding whether that be gun running, drugs, information, hits, etc. In my opinion it's not much of a leap to think that the HA did this for someone much like the Boy is doing his thing for someone. HA has the brass ones and the capabilities to do pull it off.

I cannot stand CB but her scenario fits nicely in what I envision. RG stumbled on to something big, Trucking warehouse, RG tortured for information (knee caps spun), dumped in an abandoned well or shaft, etc.

Now that said another possibility is that this inmate that came forward is trying to pin the crime on this former HA member & FBI informant as payback or to cover his own rearend.

[SuperSmith]

I wish Bob Buehner would come out and elaborate on his interview regarding the Hells Angel group and his penpal

[Saunterer]

God willing, I will have the chance again this year to help end Tom Corbett's pathetic political career...once in the primary election and likely (unfortunately) again in the general election. Tom Corbett is an absolute embarrassment to the great state I have lived in all my life, to the university where I studied, to the Republican Party, and to every competent law enforcer and law-abiding citizen.

Tags: Ray Gricar, Penn State

[SuperSmith]

Perhaps I just don't remember but I definitely do not recall this statement about a pack of gum

"DUANE DIXON, BELLEFONTE POLICE CHIEF: The car was locked up in a dirt parking lot and the cell phone was left in the car. And there was I believe a pack of Eclipse gum in the car. And through the processing of the car, they also found some cigarette ashes on the passenger floor."

http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/1103/25/ng.01.html

If this is accurate and coupled with the water bottle found in the car it certainly appears to me that RG stopped along the way to wherever to purchase these. Its possible he brought these items from home but I wonder if LE ever checked surveillance video from convenience stores on 192.

[fromthedeepestjungle]

I would dout that about checking anything like that lets see 1 small store just outside of center hall next would be reberburg which have 2 intown I dont think there are anymore on 192 untill at the end onto rt 11-15 now on rt 45 there are more snappys at the light next jodons country store in spring mills next is burkholders going into millheim next would be the I think hosterman and stovers have a littlle one in there hardware next would be millheim mart right before you go into millheim next would be harluton 1 store then right outside of there is a harvey mart which burnt down and killed 2 people that were inside at the time it was then rebuilt aslo same owner of the eating place right across rt45 burnt down alittle while ago the next one would be mifflinburg which there are many then after there going into lewisburg the plane will be a mystery just like this but someone always knows what happen because they are involved yep

[fromthedeepestjungle]

dont know what eles to say

[fromthedeepestjungle]

I think SS you want people to chime in what would they say there is probley alot of people in this county that dont care or they read the blog and take that as this guy knows what he is talking about just watch me walk away (song) someone or afew went to great lenghts to keep it out of public view also information if LE has any everything leedes to a dead end on trace like a plane 1 soul or 238 souls without a trace

[2-B]

We're about a week and a half away from the ninth anniversary of the disappearance--hard to fathom--and for some reason the anniversary minus any known progress is really irritating me this year, even though I know the case has been moVed, something which should make me feel better.

Caught the last few minutes of Ray's Disappeared episode on the ID channel (again) the other day and felt so bad for Lara and Tony. I don't think either wears his/her emotions on the sleeve (maybe a lot like Dad/uncle), but I believe both struggle with finding ways to accept they may never get answers. Getting philosophical here, I've always hoped we'll find answers for them and for Ray himself.

And so we've turned over the few puzzle pieces we've had for nearly nine years now, adding tidbit here, tidbit there.

For much of that time, I concentrated on analyzing individual tidbits till I felt confident I understood what I could/all that I could, about each tidbit, long before I felt comfortable trying to fit those puzzle pieces into possible theories.

Any of us who are serious case followers know how difficult it is to formulate a theory that doesn't require pounding some square pegs into round holes to make the theory work. To mix metaphors, it's the proverbial left over loose ends I'm talking about, the ones that require some incredible flight of fancy and/or out of character behavior to make the theory work. Blogger Boy has any number of these if you want to venture into the Blog Bog for some of the more outrageous variety.

But some really solid theories sometimes have me picking at those loose ends as well. I've been mulling over the HA angle again because both BB and SS give it a lot of credence and lord knows, BB has serious sources and serious gravitas when it comes to this case.

But I started thinking the other day about how The Boy brought Mel Wiley to the discussion as a parallel to Ray's case WITHIN 4 DAYS of joining CTV, then lied and said it was KA who did so.

So two things:

1. Obviously Wiley was an important talking point to introduce EARLY (along with the laptop being the key and how RG "had" to have been in Lewisburg). Where did that information on Wiley come from? The Boy claims from riding by Burnt Cabins on some family trip, but since he won't allow that Gricar could have heard of it happening 25 miles from Cleveland, this seems concocted and far less likely than the obvious path: directly from SS to be used as "evidence" of walkaway.

2. If, as I believe, The Boy's role in this case is either as a favor or as a paid shill, there is only one way I can envision an HA connection that puts that Wiley info on the CTV board in September 2006, and that would be through SS.

But my question would be--and it's perhaps naive because I know so little of the HA's, the mob, etc.--but if some organized group helped RG to disappear, wouldn't there have been a much clearer message?

That is, we've been treading water for 9 years with the official line being "might a been suicide, might a been walkaway, might a been foul play." Is that the kind of message an organized group sends as opposed to a bloodied body left to be found, rather than cryptic messages on the internet pointing to voluntary walkaway?

I hope that made sense. I think it made more sense in my brain.

[MrsPC]

good post 2-B - except my issue with "Blogger Boy" is that he immediately ran defense for Patty Fornicola when he first started posting on our original forum. I still find that odd to this day.

[SuperSmith]

good post 2-B - except my issue with "Blogger Boy" is that he immediately ran defense for Patty Fornicola when he first started posting on our original forum. I still find that odd to this day.

In order to perpetuate a walkaway scenario and point away from murder it to me would be logical to defend the number one individual that the public will suspect in a murder scenario. Taking the focus off Patty lends to moving forward with the Wiley comparisons and RG sitting on an island sipping on Grey Goose martinis.

The clear picture for me is the blogger knocking down one domino at a time.

MOO

[SuperSmith]

That is, we've been treading water for 9 years with the official line being "might a been suicide, might a been walkaway, might a been foul play." Is that the kind of message an organized group sends as opposed to a bloodied body left to be found, rather than cryptic messages on the internet pointing to voluntary walkaway?

Perhaps the later disposal of the hard drive & laptop (IMO, was discarded after the initial searches) was an attempt to point in one direction. Problem is it didn't, it only strengthened the 3 way scenario puzzle.

Also perhaps any message (if there is one) doesn't really matter as long as the body remains unfound.

Blogger boy could just be in place to keep other uninterested or to keep from searching.

Most people are going to be more aggressive and demanding in finding answers to a murder of a good man and DA vs. someone who left his job behind, his daughter, suspected of letting JS off the hook, leaving his girlfriend, cheating on his girlfriend, a womanizer, someone who had suspicious financials, or was some agent for another country.

MOO

Edited April 7, 2014 by SuperSmith

[2-B]

good post 2-B - except my issue with "Blogger Boy" is that he immediately ran defense for Patty Fornicola when he first started posting on our original forum. I still find that odd to this day.

So much so that for a while there was speculation whether his identity was actually PF! I agree that it was downright bizarre. I've never forgotten two really odd exchanges I had with him on the Patty front. One occurred when I was outlining some scenario that had ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to do with Patty, and he started going all ballistic on me. When I asked him what in the world had bees in his bonnet, he told me something like, "But IF you inserted PEF into that scenario instead...." I was just flabbergasted that he was so Patty-obsessed he was accusing people based on his distorted thinking that Patty COULD be substituted in a completely unrelated scenario.

Another occurred when I was indeed discussing what I had clearly labeled as a hypothetical scenario involving PF. At one point he got so bent out of shape he told me I needed to seek mental help. He was seething. It was so odd that a **hypothetical** could make him so angry, especially when there were other posters like Day and Laws who were outright accusing PF, not looking at hypotheticals.

That said, the CTV board at the time was pretty PF-centered in its discussion at the time Blogger Boy showed up, and it was obvious he wanted to control what we talked about (the laptop and walkaway that occurred from Lewisburg) and what we didn't ("all discussion of PF should be off the table).

I guess what I was trying to say in my earlier post is all that, including Wylie, strikes me as as too personal and too linked in part to Sloane to be part of the HA scenario, hence, a square peg in a round hole for me.

[2-B]

Perhaps the later disposal of the hard drive & laptop (IMO, was discarded after the initial searches) was an attempt to point in one direction. Problem is it didn't, it only strengthened the 3 way scenario puzzle.

Also perhaps any message (if there is one) doesn't really matter as long as the body remains unfound.

Blogger boy could just be in place to keep other uninterested or to keep from searching.

Most people are going to be more aggressive and demanding in finding answers to a murder of a good man and DA vs. someone who left his job behind, his daughter, suspected of letting JS off the hook, leaving his girlfriend, cheating on his girlfriend, a womanizer, someone who had suspicious financials, or was some agent for another country.

MOO

I could be way off base about this, but I always thought organized groups wanted bodies to be found so that the message was loud and clear. You know, "Mess with us, and this is what you get." I confess to little knowledge about all this, with Hollywood being about my only source, and then not my favorite genre. The Departed was really good. :-)