The disappearance of Ray Gricar

[2-B]

Didn't have time to do this yesterday and am constrained to my phone at the moment, but in case these are helpful to anyone, I took some screenshots of the courthouse and parking lots behind it from Google Earth. As someone, I think morn, already pointed out, the CH lot is very small and the space right beside the door to the left is an ADA spot. At 6'0" RG probably took only a few strides to reach his Mini. Lots of reasons he may have parked in that corner spot. I agree with whoever remarked that it's interesting he's still focused on the direction the Jeep went as he leaves two hours later.

[2-B]

Yes, they both graduated in '85. But it is an enormous university. However, given their academic interests, it's quite possible their paths intersected on more than one occasion.

In addition to that, BD worked for DPW between '92-'98. Not sure which county though.

KA was so certain in the early days that the poster JJ knew too much about certain specifics of the courthouse (layout of offices, certain office protocols, certain things about Ray's personal and professional life, etc., etc.) that he could not therefore be a disabled, retired guy from Philadelphia. Based on that premise, she embarked on a series of theories regarding JJ's "real" identity, even after he telephoned her one time and the number check out as belonging to XX (His actual identity, which by that time was widely known). So she pursued, among other avenues, the theories that his posts were actually written by PF (he was a staunch defender of PF in those days, to the point of absurdity, once telling me I needed to seek mental help for my Patty obsession in response to a post which had absolutely nothing to do with Patty and then weakly defending himself by arguing that some other poster had mentioned her. Oh yes, the good old days...he is so shackled Over Yonder that only a few of us know his capacity for absurd vitriol).

But I digress. It was always clear to me that the insider details JJ had in the early days (I say JJ because he was not yet Blogger Dude) came from someone who was indeed an insider. He spent only two academic years at UP 30 years ago. He entered the CTV boards with the lamest of disclaimers for why he was posting on the case. It became increasingly evident over the years he has little or no respect for RG, and for many years he rarely missed an opportunity to spin a discussion to denigrate his character.

Yet he knew all these specific details about RG, his personal and professional life (many things not public record), and for years posted from early in the day till the wee hours of the morning on the case. his path and Sloane's and perhaps even PF's would likely have crossed at PSU despite its size, given their majors, interests, and time frames. They may have had disagreements since in public comments, but The path of information from Sloane to JJ in those early years seems to me a sure thing. The only question in my mind is whether he took/takes marching orders from him or from someone else.

My opinion only after ten plus years with this danged case. YMMV, of course.

[2-B]

However, I thought the other question KA said JJ had raised which was that there was no spouse to make claim on his pension perhaps was an issue. I have not a clue what happens to state pensions in cases like that. The daughter certainly wouldn't have received the pension payments like a wife would but would the entire amount, even the amount paid in, revert to the state ??

I digress ..... bored, having my carpets cleaned.

At least with the state retirement system--and this had to have been true of the county system also--you can name anybody you want as beneficiary. Doesn't have to be a spouse.

As I remember it, when RG was declared dead in 2011, Lara received the money in his pension. Someone please correct me if my memory is faulty on this. I do know Patty was not a petitioner when Goodall drew up the petition to have him declared dead.

[2-B]

If it was a setup, to make it looked RG drove to Lewisburg and jumped off a bridge , its surprising the authorities didn't check out Patty`s home, after all she claims she was the last one to see him.The home looks like a older home where there might be old wells or something around ,they usually check out the area where the person was last seen. Did they ever really check around his home with Patty?

A cursory walk through was done. But....

1. BPD held on to the "three theories, equally likely" position as long as they held the case and always maintained it was "just a missing persons case," whatever that means. It's true they had no blood slashed all over the Mini's seats or OJ -like blood trail. But as I've said before, neither did nearby Ferguson Township police when Cindy Song disappeared. They re-classified her case pretty quickly as suspected homicide even though demographically she was more likely to be a runaway and circumstantially more likely to be a suite (recent bad breakup with boyfriend). They used her having enrolled in the next semester's classes and having just put in an order for computer parts to rule out both. (Gricar had both professional and personal things written on his office calendar....)

2. As we've recently discussed, PF was not treated as most people who last saw a missing person are treated. For her own peace of mind and for the investigation, it would have been better if the BPD hadn't shown this favoritism. Until we find out what happened to RG, it seems she'll always be under that umbrella of suspicion even if she's a totally innocent, grieving girlfriend.

[mbrn30000]

One thing that gets in my crawl...not that I really understand that expression...but what bugs me is the way RG ran that office kind of like his own business. When he made PF the VA and then later when she was done playing VA gave her a clerks position reveals, at least a little, about what kind of people they were. The person who benefits from a personal relationship is just as responsible. What kind of HR rules does the county have? Most HR rules requires a posting of open positions, perhaps government testing, points for minorities, vets, the hard to employ. Surely there could have been an outside applicant for the clerks position that had at least PF's credentials? It was 2005, in the middle of our warring decade, perhaps there was some disabled vet with the skills needed for a clerks position working for the county. Perhaps some out of work 55 year old with many years experience was struggling to find a job, but who's resume blew the doors of PF except where they slept. yeah it bugs the heck out of me. Patty wants to be VA boom she is VA then she is bored or whatever two years later and boom she gets a clerks position. Did they cut her pay or did she get to keep her last raise? The person who accepts these kind of special favors is just as guilty as the favor giver. I don't really care if her family were old timers, nepotism always is a bad thing, and loverism is even worse.

Edited July 25, 2015 by mbrn30000

[Vincennes]

Thanks, 2B, for a whole heck of a lot of information there. Thanks also for the aerial views, that hadn't clicked with my brain when you first talked about those side streets.

Re. JJ and BD, obviously, someone with those view points that needed to be expressed seems to me as odd as KA thought it was. I think it's also notable that here we are in a brand new thread and I for one am a new poster, really knew to looking at the facts here and we are right back to discussing Patty.

[Vincennes]

One thing that gets in my crawl...not that I really understand that expression...but what bugs me is the way RG ran that office kind of like his own business. When he made PF the VA and then later when she was done playing VA gave her a clerks position reveals, at least a little, about what kind of people they were. The person who benefits from a personal relationship is just as responsible. What kind of HR rules does the county have? Most HR rules requires a posting of open positions, perhaps government testing, points for minorities, vets, the hard to employ. Surely there could have been an outside applicant for the clerks position that had at least PF's credentials? It was 2005, in the middle of our warring decade, perhaps there was some disabled vet with the skills needed for a clerks position working for the county. Perhaps some out of work 55 year old with many years experience was struggling to find a job, but who's resume blew the doors of PF except where they slept. yeah it bugs the heck out of me. Patty wants to be VA boom she is VA then she is bored or whatever two years later and boom she gets a clerks position. Did they cut her pay or did she get to keep her last raise? The person who accepts these kind of special favors is just as guilty as the favor giver. I don't really care if her family were old timers, nepotism always is a bad thing, and loverism is even worse.

I mentioned this a while back and you need to add to that the Country takes on a very dubious legal position in regard to these kind of things. They are open to claims of sexual harassment and to another kind of claim that doesn't come to mind right now. As I said before our Supt. went about pretending to still be married among the reg. employees and wearing his wedding ring. He would have fallen over his desk and you would have had to revive him if someone made a claim he was dating anyone under him.

[Vincennes]

It's also funny that it would have been acceptable for her to be in another department in that court house but NOT working for him. Didn't she leave another department to take the VA job in the first place ?

[2-B]

Now we have BD who 2B thinks is JJ, didn't read his posts but is that purpose still continuing. Even a further out question.

JJ *was* BD, no thinking involved. :-)

Pete Bosak was a Centre Daily Times employee on the crime beat. He took over the Gricar Q&A after Erin Nissley (who did a great job) left for greener pastures. Bosak also started for a short time a blog on the Gricar case that ran in the CDT.

Bosak had a lot of disdain for message board posters on the Gricar case--called them some nasty names openly in his blog, basically saying they were basement dwelling, pajama wearing idiots. Now there was admittedly a small handful of nut cases in those early days. All crime cases attract a small handful of nut cases. I personally thought on the whole the Gricar posters were sincere and making and honest effort to figure out what had happened to him.

Bosak, however, called JJ "the only logical poster" posting on the case, which baffled me, since most of his posts contained logical fallacies big enough to drive an 18-wheeler through. But on that basis, when Bosak left for greener pastures, he handed JJ his Gricar blog in the Centre Daily Times, and for many years, the CDT allowed him to spew misinformation and to manipulate the public view of what happened to Gricar.

The CDT discontinued all blogs a little while ago, but to this day, if you Google a Gricar-related issue, you're likely to get a link to "Sporadic Comments," his blog. Folks newer to the case see this as the Bible of the case, and he helps perpetuate that idea, frequently referring people who ask for a source for something he asserts to his own blog! I've even seen on at least two message boards where his entrance was greeted with accolades. The "great" Guru of Gricar, the official case blogger, was joining them! He's helped plump his own reputation, once calling himself "the only game in town" (only one step better than the time he told all other poster at CTV "This is MY board" (and that's exactly how he wrote it).

And here's why he fled our board: he originally left In Session because we all knew what he was and how he operated, and we wouldn't put up with his lies. So he went to Crime Library, where he snickered and lied (about Gricar, KA, the posters back at In Session) and tried to promote his blog. Then, In Session decided to close, so we went over to Crime Library, where some of us were already members since it was part of the same TruTV system. We had a great moderator there, and when JJ lied about Tony Gricar and tried to publicly slime him, JJ came within an inch of getting banned. He doesn't know this, but the moderator asked me if he should be banned. I conferred with the "regulars," and we all decided to give him *one* more chance.

But it was his decision to stop posting there. He went Over Yonder, where the rules are such that it's very difficult to point out when reader need hip waders without sitting in the corner for a year. Ask Super Smith or Saunterer.

You likely think that's more than you wanted to know about BD, but honestly, it only scratches the surface. My concern with him is that he is so slick he's been able to shape public perception in the Gricar case to a huge degree. A public who thinks Ray walked away isn't a public who will in any way make it clear to law enforcement that the public won't stand for s cold case that just languishes in a dusty box on a shelf.

Ray Gricar was my district attorney for more than 20 years and a damned good one, a man of integrity dedicated to seeing justice done--and a far sight better than anyone else in that office since. He deserves better than to be seen as some loony character who one day just chucked it all to prove how smart he was, regardless of the pain he'd inflict.

[Vincennes]

I have to mention another thought here that occurred to me watching some of the videos today. Does everyone here in the thread swim ? Has it ever seemed to anyone else that using that bridge as a method of suicide would be odd for a swimmer ? I know people jump off bridges but the ones I've seen that are most used are ones tall enough that would probably knock you out upon impact or stun you long enough you were done by the time you even started to regain consciousness. That bridge isn't high enough to do that. If you planned on hitting the rocks at low level water maybe. At the water level that river was at I think you could dive off it without much problem. Treacherous current ? Maybe. But I live close to the Scioto where it's wide around Columbus. It's known for it's under current but it's also DEEP there and there have been enough drownings, I'm sorry to say, you go in here at spot Z, they pretty much know they go down the river a ways to spot X on the map and pull your body out because that's where it's going to be. Also all the reports remark on the fact that water was crystal clear at that time, you could see through it to the bottom. Doesn't like it's extraordinarily deep, taking on that kind of current would seem a maybe.

As a swimmer, if I were contemplating ways to off myself, I'd think I'd more likely take a shot at holding my nose in the bathtub because that's about how much I think I could count on stifling my bodies response to swim. Also keeping in mind chances are 50/50 it's broad daylight and that's a very popular "Street of Shops." Again, not my choice as a DA for an alarm to go up and someone fish me out while still gurgling or a DA flailing his arms in a river then trying to convince people he fell off the bridge. Might be a pretty darn embarrassing spot to chose.

Edited July 25, 2015 by Vincennes

[wijg]

Seems to be a ton of guests keeping an eye on this thread lately.

Looks like between 10-17 guests have been reading this forum most of the day. Seems unusually high.

[mbrn30000]

I have to mention another thought here that occurred to me watching some of the videos today. Does everyone here in the thread swim ? Has it ever seemed to anyone else that using that bridge as a method of suicide would be odd for a swimmer ? I know people jump off bridges but the ones I've seen that are most used are ones tall enough that would probably knock you out upon impact or stun you long enough you were done by the time you even started to regain consciousness. That bridge isn't high enough to do that. If you planned on hitting the rocks at low level water maybe. At the water level that river was at I think you could dive off it without much problem. Treacherous current ? Maybe. But I live close to the Scioto where it's wide around Columbus. It's known for it's under current but it's also DEEP there and there have been enough drownings, I'm sorry to say, you go in here at spot Z, they pretty much know they go down the river a ways to spot X on the map and pull your body out because that's where it's going to be. Also all the reports remark on the fact that water was crystal clear at that time, you could see through it to the bottom. Doesn't like it's extraordinarily deep, taking on that kind of current would seem a maybe.

As a swimmer, if I were contemplating ways to off myself, I'd think I'd more likely take a shot at holding my nose in the bathtub because that's about how much I think I could count on stifling my bodies response to swim. Also keeping in mind chances are 50/50 it's broad daylight and that's a very popular "Street of Shops." Again, not my choice as a DA for an alarm to go up and someone fish me out while still gurgling or a DA flailing his arms in a river then trying to convince people he fell off the bridge. Might be a pretty darn embarrassing spot to chose.

You need to read my posts about that. I have been saying that over and over...lol. it's not a lethal jump. Why risk a broken leg and a painful float down the river. I don't think people who can swim can force themselves to drown. I did say is it possible he leaned out and blew his head off falling into the river. that was kind of a wild thought, but it could be a serious one. It is just not high enough that I think you would pick it for your fatal jump. He could drive down to Maryland. I remember a bridge I took over the Chesapeake, and believe me, I almost died driving over it. Now that's a bridge. http://archive.delma...ct-your-travels- throw your laptop from there. it won't be coming back. It's 3-4 hr drive from Lewisburg. He could have made it there by 5 pm easy.

Edited July 25, 2015 by mbrn30000

[wijg]

23 guests now viewing? Geez... we're popular tonight!

[mbrn30000]

that jeep had no where to go if the lot looked then as it does today, unless they drove over the curb. Maybe that is what caught RG's attention. either that or they parked on that far parking space. PF have any friends with a Jeep? is there a film of RG leaving the lot? did anyone pull out soon after him? Was the sighting at the park before or after this sighting?

edit: I think I found answer. this was after the park sighting.

Edited July 26, 2015 by mbrn30000

[Caramina]

Seems to be a ton of guests keeping an eye on this thread lately.

Looks like between 10-17 guests have been reading this forum most of the day. Seems unusually high.

Yup, I have been reading here EVERY day since long before I joined.

Methinks maybe so many lately is that most of them believe PF is somehow involved in the disappearance, since there's been many posts recently about her.

[Caramina]

Respectfully snipped:

2-B: You may be right about the kid. He seems of no interest to RG, but that Jeep certainly caught his eye. We don't know why. Was it peeling through the parking lot with screaming tires? Did the person driving or passengers in it make him take notice? Wish we knew. May be nothing, but maybe not.

Respectfully snipped: by me as well Vincennes

LOL, being a smoker myself, that was my first thought when I saw an outside cigarette ash container.

[Caramina]

I don't really have a developed theory on that, since I don't know if either RG or PF wanted to be married. Its just kind of funny the rules changed about the time the RG disappearance happened. The change in the law had to be in the legal news, so maybe it spawned a discussion about their future and one of them said, we have no future. Did they lay any concrete at the homes of any of the players back then? Maybe a new flower box, a new patio, finally built that gazebo they always wanted. jk.

Hmmm, "many a truth is said in jest"

Who knows....

[wijg]

The highest I saw was 26 guests, and as I write this we're still at 19, deep into the late night on an otherwise uneventful Saturday.

Something that was said in the last 3-5 pages must have stoked some gossip in Centre County, and now everyone is looking for what we're going to say next.

Just my theory, of course.

[wijg]

Vin

Something else about that timeline if true, she calls only her brother at 8:30 pm before calling the police at 11:30pm. It alleges she never called any of RG's friends or relatives. Its still before 9pm on the west coast, where RG's daughter lives, so why not at least call her, and ask when is the last time you talked to him? We know the daughter claimed Thursday but PF would not know that Friday night(or maybe she would). Maybe PF has no personal friends to call, and maybe none of RG's friends were really close. We have heard Sloane was close, so why not call him. Since PF was one, she would know all of RG's coworkers, why not call them? She had to call her bro as soon as she got home from the gym. What did her brother do in response to her call? Did he come rushing over? My first thought under these circumstances would be RG was called out on a DA related emergency, my second thought would be a car accident, her first thought was he wanted to leave her and be alone. So she calls bro for reassurance? Very, Very Strange. How about- "Bro, Ray's not home! Can you check with the hospitals and police departments between here and Lewisburg, I am going to call our police here and some of the ADA's and ray's friend Sloane." Nope, she asks why would he leave me?

I have always found it odd that she didn't call Sloane. That would have been my first phone call.

Also, with regards to Thursday 4/14... check out this screen cap from the Bellefonte PD website:

That's from this website: https://sites.google...site/raygricar/

(not sure who made this site, but thank you to whoever did. Among other things, the timeline is a good resource, and the archiving this screen cap was clutch... that screen cap is from 1/29/2009).

Edited July 26, 2015 by wijg

[Saru]

Because the sheer size of this thread has been causing some slowdown on the forums recently we are splitting it up so that the discussion can continue without further performance issues.

The continuation thread can be found here:

http://www.unexplain...howtopic=284058

This thread will now be locked and archived.