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the real evolution of man.


danielost

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Just an FYI here, Daniel. I took a class in Chinese, Japanese & Korean history at the University where I work, and learned that China had written history at the time of the flood, and had no record of any inundations or a major flood in their part of the world. Don't know how this might fit in with the story of the flood, but thought I'd put it out there. In thinking about this, I wonder where Noah would have gotten pairs of platypus, or Pandas, wallaroos, Western diamondback rattlesnakes, or other creatures not native of his part of the world, and how this fits in with the narrative.

While I'm not Christian, I am interested in the theology of Christianity and other religions, and how issues like this are addressed.

Hey you're not supposed to ask questions like that.... hahahaha....,you'll bring the wrath of the Bible punchers down on your head.Dont say I didn't warn you.( and I wonder where they got Penguins from...hee hee)
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Hi Daniel. I too dont believe in evolution, but I also dont believe in the bible. But to call someone stupid for not having the same beliefs as yourself is childish.

Evolution to me all just sounds like man trying to answer the question of life as we know it, just theories, let them have there moments.

I believe in a higher power aka God, however I dont believe in man made religon. Ive been asked many times why I believe or wheres my proof of the existence of God? Its simple there is None. Kinda like Evolution no proof there either. What has man seen evolve in the 1000s of years we been here? Nothing. Is there a completed evolutions tree? No. Will man ever be smart enough to answer the questions of God, Evolution etc etc. No

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i am still reading through all this, on page three now.

I keep thinking one thought over and over and over.

Sometimes when I am debating or arguing, and i do not like losing, i will snap

Please.. do not confuse my beliefs with FACTS!

that is sort of what i feel he is saying... he does not wish his beliefs to become confused with facts.. so he has to turn a belief system into a fact..

which of course, is impossible to do

I have to ask though, evolution has NOTHING to do with the bible or god, it is in no way a study of if there is a god or not.

So why do bible/god believers have problems with it? Telling me god is not powerful enough to use evolution? Just because it is not mentioned in the bible does not mean it is not the tool.

I do not see the big deal

Edited by willowdreams
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i am still reading through all this, on page three now.

I keep thinking one thought over and over and over.

Sometimes when I am debating or arguing, and i do not like losing, i will snap

Please.. do not confuse my beliefs with FACTS!

that is sort of what i feel he is saying... he does not wish his beliefs to become confused with facts.. so he has to turn a belief system into a fact..

which of course, is impossible to do

I have to ask though, evolution has NOTHING to do with the bible or god, it is in no way a study of if there is a god or not.

So why do bible/god believers have problems with it? Telling me god is not powerful enough to use evolution? Just because it is not mentioned in the bible does not mean it is not the tool.

I do not see the big deal

Because the bible says that god made the animals each after their own kind. Most bible thumpers think this means that god made all life as is. But, I do not think the origanel group ôf life is still alive. Life h to adapt to new climates and environments. Except man who changes the environment to suit himself.

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Daniel have you ever had science classes? or been to school?

Yep straight a's. Doesn't mean I believe it just that I understand it. I know for a fact that there was something before this life, and it wasn't life. A state of being but not living.

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Daniel have you ever had science classes? or been to school?

Dude, you would not believe the number of American high schools who either don't teach evolution or teach our kids that it has no more scientific credence than Creation, Intelligent Design, and every other crock theory that religious nuts have come up with. A Gallup poll in 2012 showed that 46% of Americans still believe in Creation and these people are not going to allow high schools to drop that percentage down to European levels.

I went to college with these poor misled high school graduates. I'll never forget how confused a guy was in Geology 101 when the professor started talking in terms of millions and billions of years. He had never even heard of the Big Bang Theory.

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First, evolution,macro, has no proof.

Second, the only reason you say I don't understand evolution is because I disagree with it.

Third, I have gone beyond what I learned in school. I have read about it. I watch almost all of the evolution shows they put out, and I still disagree with it.

Fourth, if you want to think you are pond scum, don't let me stop you. But I am not pond scum nor desended from it, as evolution theory would have me believe.

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First, evolution,macro, has no proof.

This sentence makes no sense. 'Macro' isn't a recognised term when it comes to evolutionary theory.

Second, the only reason you say I don't understand evolution is because I disagree with it

No. The reason people say you don't understand it is because.............you don't understand it. (see your comment above)

Just claiming you do, doesn't make it so. You've frequently demonstrated that you have little clue what evolutionary theory actually says.

Third, I have gone beyond what I learned in school. I have read about it. I watch almost all of the evolution shows they put out, and I still disagree with it.

As above. You can watch all the TV you like. It hasn't appeared to increase your understanding of it. I suspect that everything you know of evolution you learnt from CreationTV (or similar).

Fourth, if you want to think you are pond scum, don't let me stop you. But I am not pond scum nor desended from it, as evolution theory would have me believe.

And there we have the crux of the matter. You reject it because you don't like it.

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I can't understand how a person who claims to be educated in biology cannot accept evolutionary theory as the best description of the history of life and natural selection the best picture for how it works (with a few other mechanisms playing smaller roles). Someone who claims otherwise is just not credible, especially since the arguments we see presented here and elsewhere against it are so easily refuted if you understand the subject.

It would be kinda like someone claiming to have gotten A's in history saying that Japan invaded Russia during WWII.

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Exactly what was pointed out by Arb. Most people against evolution like to think they are from some higher force. That they were directly created as an absolute, perfect image of the God they believe in.

People seem to think that because we are from some perceived "lesser" animal or microbe that it degrades their worth. It's like they are from and follow the ideology of Descartes that animals are simply automatons. They're smarter than you think. You shouldn't feel at all insulted or disgusted with yourself (Although I can't comprehend this line of thinking, I'll trying to empathise on it).

Since God is all knowing and all powerful he would have known we would have got to this point through this evolutionary process to come to this "perfect image". Why is there still a problem?

It seems this bigotry isn't constrained to situations relative to our own species. Humble yourselves.

Edited by Orcseeker
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Exactly what was pointed out by Arb. Most people against evolution like to think they are from some higher force. That they were directly created as an absolute, perfect image of the God they believe in.

People seem to think that because we are from some perceived "lesser" animal or microbe that it degrades their worth. It's like they are from and follow the ideology of Descartes that animals are simply automatons. They're smarter than you think. You shouldn't feel at all insulted or disgusted with yourself (Although I can't comprehend this line of thinking, I'll trying to emphasise on it).

Since God is all knowing and all powerful he would have known we would have got to this point through this evolutionary process to come to this "perfect image". Why is there still a problem?

It seems this bigotry isn't constrained to situations relative to our own species. Humble yourselves.

Don't even need to humble yourself if you look around and see that the mere presence of life seems to be something incredible in itself. We have yet to find a microbe anywhere but our little rock. Add this to the cataclysms that life on Earth has endured and one has something to marvel at even from a purely scientific view.

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Don't even need to humble yourself if you look around and see that the mere presence of life seems to be something incredible in itself. We have yet to find a microbe anywhere but our little rock. Add this to the cataclysms that life on Earth has endured and one has something to marvel at even from a purely scientific view.

I was thinking along those lines though danielost professes to have studied biology. Even studying and seeing how life operates on this planet and how awe inspiring and amazing some things are. This ultimately comes down to the belief that they are directly created to be superior than every other creature on this planet and that every other creature was put here to serve them.

The thought they are descended from such creatures where they are supposed to be superior is comparable to the elite of the medieval times interacting with the peasants.

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Daniel have you ever had science classes? or been to school?

Have you ever gone to church with an opened mind. If not I sugest going to a mormon ward. Meetings are three hours a day, so that families can spend the rest of the day together doing family things. One meeting usualy starts around nine am on Sunday. Although I just learnedc in isreal it is on Saturday.

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Daniel, any thoughts about Chinese history having no record of inundations or floods? I'm not trying to put you on the spot, just wanting to know how this discrepancy is worked out theologically, of if it has been worked out at all from a god-breathed biblical reference point of view.

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Have you ever gone to church with an opened mind. If not I sugest going to a mormon ward. Meetings are three hours a day, so that families can spend the rest of the day together doing family things. One meeting usualy starts around nine am on Sunday. Although I just learnedc in isreal it is on Saturday.

I've been to a church with an opened mind. And to be completely honest, it scares me. People praying, singing and praising this all powerful entity... It really freaked me out.

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I can't understand how a person who claims to be educated in biology cannot accept evolutionary theory as the best description of the history of life and natural selection the best picture for how it works (with a few other mechanisms playing smaller roles). Someone who claims otherwise is just not credible, especially since the arguments we see presented here and elsewhere against it are so easily refuted if you understand the subject.

It would be kinda like someone claiming to have gotten A's in history saying that Japan invaded Russia during WWII.

It is simple. If man started out like a chimp how come the chimp didn't advance along side of us.

If standing up and presenting your most volnerable spot to a preditor, hoe come no one else did it.

If standing up so you could see over the tall grass and slowing down to the sped of a turtle was such a good idea how come no one else did it.

We are not the only ones to make tools. We are not the only ones to have thumbs or thumb like appendages. African elephents have two finger like apndages at the end of their trunk, asains have one. Elephants can untie knots, which is why they are chained instead of roped. Yet, we are the most advanced of the tool makers why.

If eating meat made our brains so much bigger than chimps or lions why.

We are the slowest of the carnivores and we are the worst armed. Well except for me, I have nails that women would kill for. I have drawn blood before.

I

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One wonders how all the isolated species and groups got where they are without leaving evidence of their migrations.

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I've been to a church with an opened mind. And to be completely honest, it scares me. People praying, singing and praising this all powerful entity... It really freaked me out.

Mormons pray six times for the meeting because there are three destict parts to a meeting. Plus twice for the sacriment. Usually the bishop(unpaid preist) doesn't say much. Members of the congergation get up and give speaches on the subject of the day. No one passes a collection plate. If you go on the first Sunday, members get up and give their testimony of their faith. That meeting is lo sometimes. They will treat you like a member and answer any questions if the can. None of that everyone getting up and kneeling together to pray. Christ said not to do that.

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Just got home after about 9 hours of work, so have not read all the updates since I last posted.

I spoke with my daughter (i can speak to her bout anything and we bounce things off one another, she offers perspectives i do not always see, she can be very intuitive).

Anyways, we talked about evolution, how it does not prove or disprove god, yet many xians are upset over and and reject it, I always say they do not want their faith confused with facts. But she offered something different.

To accept evolution, even if you believe in god and feel he used evolution as a tool, it can be overly humbling/disquieting for some people.

As long as you can avoid evolution in all it's forms, then you will always feel 'chosen', 'special'. Science already took away our 'specialness' in astronomy. We are not the center of much of anything, our sun is just an average sun, we are not even the center of our galaxy, we are just a tiny grain of sand among all the other grains of sand and ll the stones and boulders and mountains..

To believe in evolution of man.. is to then lose even more 'special' feelings and thoughts of the human race.

I get it. I do understand it. However, regardless of my 'getting' it, it does not change things.

The more I learn of space, the less I even believe in the likelihood of even an IDEA of a 'god' like figure. I call myself a cross between athiest and agnostic, but the more I learn the less i am an agnostic.. isn't it funny how that happens?

It happens to MOST people, not all, just most.

My daughter listened to this today and shared it again with me

it may NOT be about evolution per se, but... it is in its way.. very important to the topic of science.. period.

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This loss of "specialness" happened a couple thousand years ago in India.

Be that as it may be, I think the real opposition to evolution is more simple. People are taught certain things in childhood that they believe and are afraid to doubt and react with anger to others' questioning it.

The same applies to the moral rules we are taught in childhood. "A man having sex with another man" -- that, they are told, is immoral, and they can't see that it is nothing more than a received cultural construct that has nothing to do with true good and evil.

To question Adam and Eve or Noah or Jesus' resurrection or whatever is similar. Just things people believe from childhood and don't have the ability (really -- the ability, as in gumption or intelligence or mental independence) to question.

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This loss of "specialness" happened a couple thousand years ago in India.

Be that as it may be, I think the real opposition to evolution is more simple. People are taught certain things in childhood that they believe and are afraid to doubt and react with anger to others' questioning it.

The same applies to the moral rules we are taught in childhood. "A man having sex with another man" -- that, they are told, is immoral, and they can't see that it is nothing more than a received cultural construct that has nothing to do with true good and evil.

To question Adam and Eve or Noah or Jesus' resurrection or whatever is similar. Just things people believe from childhood and don't have the ability (really -- the ability, as in gumption or intelligence or mental independence) to question.

Not sure which is sadder... the idea that a person cannot give up some of the special feelings you get when you think you are the 'chosen' by being created by a creator to be intellegent and almost 'better than'.. or.. your view.. not having the ability to gain the mental independence in order to question.. and step outside the bounderies you are raised in..

both seem sad :(

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It is simple. If man started out like a chimp how come the chimp didn't advance along side of us.

If standing up and presenting your most volnerable spot to a preditor, hoe come no one else did it.

If standing up so you could see over the tall grass and slowing down to the sped of a turtle was such a good idea how come no one else did it.

We are not the only ones to make tools. We are not the only ones to have thumbs or thumb like appendages. African elephents have two finger like apndages at the end of their trunk, asains have one. Elephants can untie knots, which is why they are chained instead of roped. Yet, we are the most advanced of the tool makers why.

If eating meat made our brains so much bigger than chimps or lions why.

We are the slowest of the carnivores and we are the worst armed. Well except for me, I have nails that women would kill for. I have drawn blood before.

I

Because we adapted to use tools and have developed in such a way to have this use considered viable. The rest is all simply connected through that one great advancement.

We have physically observed evolution. A species of fish developed an extra fin I heard and we were able to record observations. There was a purpose for the extra fin but memory escapes me as the the reasoning and the particular species involved.

Say for instance that this fish continued evolving. There's at be a driving force behind the species to improve and continue its existence.

Lets look at this hypothetically following the lifetime of evolution. This fish may have developed this extra fin to improve mobility in catching prey. Perhaps it might recognise some prey out of its underwater habitat may be more nutrient rich. It might then require a way of leaving the water.

Some fish propell themselves out of the water to achieve such a feat. Perhaps this fish follows that path. It then might recognise, as a result of this advancement, the prey has become more hesitant to venture near these fish. So the fish might need to develop a way to allow them to temporarily leave water to catch this prey.

This could lead to the development of appendages and changes to the skin to help it deal with being exposed to air. Possibly explaining the existence of a frog. Gradually the need to be outside to catch prey becomes the driving force to this species advancing. The respiratory system changes in response to this.

The creature is now a legged amphibious being. Perhaps in other areas this fish had not been required to pursue the same means for betterment and survival and in turn remained the same or evolved within their environment.

The move into drier climate or simple change in climate (which has constantly occurs on earth) may have forced this amphibious animal to change once again. For its skin to change to become less dependant on water. Whereas some areas this may not have been an issues and so continued the amphibious scale.

Do you see that this is a completely logical and viable theory?

I would be further interested to see your opinion on my previous post about the religious aspect of being the most superior creature on the planet due to being created in Gods image.

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One wonders how all the isolated species and groups got where they are without leaving evidence of their migrations.

Don't know but tell me how moose ended up in europe(europien elk) and north american if the two seperated milions of years apart, when dinos roamed the earth. There isn't a lot of plants to eat on a frozen ocean. Then youu have american and european bison(I think extinct now). That one I blame on man.

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Orcseeker. We are not the only tool maker. Nor are we the only ones who can make a simple machine. I watched a nature show where a herd of elephants were trying to get water out of a mud pool. One of the babies got knocked off into it. It got stuck, mom tried to pull it out of the mud but couldn't get a grip. So two of the elephants kept the baby from sinking into the mud. While the rest of the herd built a ramp down to it ans saved the baby.

Chimps make tools both chimps and apes make beds to sleep in. But, they don't have a large brain.

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