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A question for all skeptics


Godsnmbr1

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You're okay with nothing = something?

No, but I'm quite happy with null state = something. The qubit (or any quantum system) doesn't "flick in and out of existence", but one of it's possible states is the null state.

So, are we not talking about the qubit and how it represents a quantum system (or superposition) anymore? You'll have to let me know in advance when you wish to change what we are discussing, so I can prepare for your next shift of the goal-posts.

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No, but I'm quite happy with null state = something. The qubit (or any quantum system) doesn't "flick in and out of existence", but one of it's possible states is the null state.

And what do you believe a null state of existence is, if not the state of not existing?

The mechanics of consistency which underpin the very heart of monotonic systems depend on an elephant being an elephant and remaining an elephant, every time that you look at it.

In quantum mechanics, it's an elephant, it's an engine oil, it's a desert and for one time only you can have two for the price of three.

So, are we not talking about the qubit and how it represents a quantum system (or superposition) anymore? You'll have to let me know in advance when you wish to change what we are discussing, so I can prepare for your next shift of the goal-posts.

You appear to have me confused with someone who's here to score points with sophistry.

I thought you genuinely wanted to talk about how the Universe worked. If you're just here to win regardless - then have fun with that. If you like, I'll phone the Nobel Academy for you and tell them you've solved all the issues associated with quantum non-locality through the previously unthought of genius idea of just giving things names.

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And what do you believe a null state of existence is, if not the state of not existing?

The mechanics of consistency which underpin the very heart of monotonic systems depend on an elephant being an elephant and remaining an elephant, every time that you look at it.

In quantum mechanics, it's an elephant, it's an engine oil, it's a desert and for one time only you can have two for the price of three.

No, in quantum mechanics it's a quantum system, which remains a quantum system (the same quantum system - it's superposition never alters) no matter which way you look at it, and every time you look at it. Elephants, engine oil and deserts are all definitions of non-quantum objects.

This is what I have been putting across since we started debating. It's no use trying to 'fit' non-quantum objects into a quantum system, and vice versa. That's where you have made your error.

...I'll phone the Nobel Academy for you and tell them you've solved all the issues associated with quantum non-locality through the previously unthought of genius idea of just giving things names.

Once again - logic isn't physics. Logic depends on our definitions of what we trying to apply that logic to. And monotonicity depends on that the totality of the object logic is applied to, remains consistent. In all cases (including quantum systems and 'the Universe') it does.

And what do you believe a null state of existence is, if not the state of not existing?

What are you defining 'non-existence' as? Just that we can't observe it, or 'nothing'?

If the former, then that doesn't suggest it doesn't actually exist. If the latter, I agree that something cannot come from nothing, so that suggests it is never 'nothing' - does it not?

Edited by Leonardo
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No, in quantum mechanics it's a quantum system, which remains a quantum system (the same quantum system - it's superposition never alters) no matter which way you look at it, and every time you look at it. Elephants, engine oil and deserts are all definitions of non-quantum objects.

This is what I have been putting across since we started debating. It's no use trying to 'fit' non-quantum objects into a quantum system, and vice versa. That's where you have made your error.

Then I'll just make that phone call for you.

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I thought you genuinely wanted to talk about how the Universe worked.

No, I was talking about how logic works. Once again, we are not talking the same language. The subject is logic, specifically monotonicity.

In the context of what I have been discussing 'Universe' is just a word which describes/defines something. That something is always 'Universe'.

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No I didnt say anything about words written in text.

I know you didn't, but I did in order to make a point. Words written in text is what the bible is, with nothing to back it.. This is why it is called a book of faith..

This is a large discussion beckysmom,

It's not meant to be for two reasons. One - I do not have the time to dive into a large discussion ( busy with work and family life) and two, I was making a simple point in which I summed up in one asking why would you or any firm believer in the bible who would not ask for solid proof of this book, yet would be willing to ask a voice to prove who they are?.....This does not add up..

To add another quick question - How would you or anyone know if the voice was or was not god? What must this voice do to prove it?

Edit: Oh I forgot to say: I dont know why you assume I trust every line of text written in the bible as the voice of god, that is not true in my case... but at the same time I do think God does speak through it.

So you pick and choose certain parts of the bible to trust and skip the rest?..

Not to worry, you are not the only Christian that picks and chooses what to trust and what not to trust..All Christians cherry pick parts to run with and leave other parts out...I have yet to meet a Christian that follows the book to the letter..

EDIT - I wont ask you what parts of the bible you class as untrustworthy, I like to keep this discussion as short as possible due to not being able to get on line to post as much...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Then I'll just make that phone call for you.

"The universe is everything that exists."

From this we can understand the logical monotonicity of 'universe', because the universe will always, and only, be everything that exists. It doesn't matter what else you throw in there, or take out. 'Universe' will never be banana, or sombrero.

Logical monotonicity has nothing to do with how something works, it is to do with what something is. A qubit is monotonic because it will always, and only, be the superposition of the binary states 0 and 1.

Monotonicity, in the context we have been discussing it, is our understanding of what something is and that it is not, can never be, something else.

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Leo - it's clearly far beyond my ability to persuade you that there could possibly be any fundamental issues with logic and quantum physics.

Continue believing whatever it is that you wish to believe.

Bon voyage.

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I know you didn't, but I did in order to make a point. Words written in text is what the bible is, with nothing to back it.. This is why it is called a book of faith..

I just want to point out again that by you bringing up the bible in a discussion that was not talking about the bible makes it clear that you are jumping to conclusions about who I am and what I think. This is not rare but I do wonder why people do that.

It's not meant to be for two reasons. One - I do not have the time to dive into a large discussion ( busy with work and family life) and two, I was making a simple point in which I summed up in one asking why would you or any firm believer in the bible who would not ask for solid proof of this book, yet would be willing to ask a voice to prove who they are?.....This does not add up..

I tried to answer this in my first response to you. God was already proven to me before I ever picked up the bible. I read the bible in the same stance that I would be listening to any voice I could hear in my head. So to me, this does add up. I would approach both the same way.

To add another quick question - How would you or anyone know if the voice was or was not god? What must this voice do to prove it?

I answered this too on the initial response you quoted me from. I would ask for a miracle of some kind. I also like the response Frank Merton had, stating that it if indeed was God, we would probably have an overwhelming knowing that it was God. It would probably be a very loving and spiritually strong feeling of holiness. Depending on the degree that I was already convinced because of this overall feeling I may or may not ask for further proof. But again, in asking proof I would ask for some kind of miracle and ask God to do something that would not leave me to question.

So you pick and choose certain parts of the bible to trust and skip the rest?..

Its not as cut and dry as that. I did try to explain my stance on this as well. If you are curious about how I really feel about this discussion will you please re-read what I already wrote. This is not meant in any disrespect at all. I know that sometimes we read fast, or just the first part or not really try to let what was said sink in. I do this all the time as well.

Not to worry, you are not the only Christian that picks and chooses what to trust and what not to trust..All Christians cherry pick parts to run with and leave other parts out...I have yet to meet a Christian that follows the book to the letter..

not to worry, I'm not worried... lol

EDIT - I wont ask you what parts of the bible you class as untrustworthy, I like to keep this discussion as short as possible due to not being able to get on line to post as much...

Good because I don't even know the answer of that for myself. The bible for me is just a divination tool and not the only one I use. I can read one passage one way and understand it a certain way and read it another day and understand it totally differently. I will say some of the main concepts I don't agree with in the bible are the demonization of other religions and homosexuality, the reason I say that is because those things are still happening today. I take the stories for what they are and know they are references to moral teachings that I do agree with. To me it is not relevant if they happened in real life or not (and I'm not arguing for either stance) I am living my life today and I know that God is working in it and that's what matters to me.

edit: I did re-read my original post and see that I did bring up the scriptures. My point in this is that the scriptures are designed to help us distinguish the voice of God for ourselves (I do not mean this as an audible voice, although it can be heard that way as well). I did not anywhere state that I blindly accept any given scripture, this is what you brought up. I do believe and have been shown evidence of the true spirit of God that does not live in a book.

original response to you:

http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=254700&st=150&p=4929590entry4929590

I'm not being a smart a-word, just making it easier for you to re-read, if you really are interested in how I think.

thanks for taking time to converse with me. :)

lol ttys hopefully

have fun with family and life :)

Edited by SpiritWriter
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I just want to point out again that by you bringing up the bible in a discussion that was not talking about the bible makes it clear that you are jumping to conclusions about who I am and what I think. This is not rare but I do wonder why people do that.

If you seriously follow the bible OR even certain chosen parts of it, then, I have not jumped to any mere conclusion...

I would ask for a miracle of some kind.

This right here is one of the most common things I have heard ( time and time again ) from doubting Christians... They expect a miracle to be used as proof, for if they don't get one, then the voice or being must be a fake. These kind of Christians are as bad as the non believers, and the irony is, they don't see it....

It is most rare to find a true follower who will not demand or even expect a being to preform some miracle just to prove who they are, as this is not what true faith is... Before you say a word, allow me to explain myself a bit more on this...

In ref to this topic and to share with you where I stand on this issue ( if I heard a voice claiming to be God )...

My thoughts are - I am not one who expects miracles, in fact, I do not think that god must answer each and every prayer I say... I could go through years of IE - Bad luck, heartache, suffering and my faith in god remains the same, it never shifts.....Even if I felt like giving up, for some reason the faith hangs on......I have proven this in real life after the loss of my daughter..There were times when I wanted my faith to leave, but it stays regardless, and I seriously cannot tell you why my faith sits tight..

So, when it comes to the OP question of hearing a voice, my answer would be simple.( Bold parts to lay emphasis ).... If the voice was asking me to hurt others and do negative things in my life, then I would know that is not from god, and I would seek professional help.. BUT, if the voice just helps me and guides me through life ( the good and the bad ) then I will not care to question the voice, I sure as heck will not feel I need to push it to preform miracles, I never look a gift horse in the mouth.....Guidance that is helpful to me is more than enough.. I am a selfless human being, and I am happy to be so..

That is why I feel a bit off when I hear others say they would expect god to preform miracles for them to prove who he really is, I call this doubting and selfish.....Doubting because of the obvious, and selfish because they expect a large task such as a miracle to be done before they will accept it... "Here are some hoops God, now kindly jump through them or get lost"..!!

Another thing so many fail to think about is.. If a person believes in satan and tricking demons etc etc, then they should be good enough to be able to trick others into thinking they are from God or even God him/herself.. They can preform the miracles to convince the followers easy, if they couldn't to that, then they are not tricksters.

Its not as cut and dry as that

Many people I have spoken to react the same way or similar.. Example - A person can be so full of pride, that they struggle to admit they do in fact pick and choose what parts of their bible they like to accept and follow, and other parts the skip and leave out.. Why is this? Answer - This does not sound like the actions of a true follower,in fact, it sounds like a half ar*ed job, so they will claim that it is not as simple as that, there is so much more to it...

But, when you sum it all up in one, the truth is, they are still picking and choosing what parts they like, and what they don't bother with.. You all do it, there is not a Christian I can think of that doesn't..So yes, it is cut and dry - Some of it speaks to you and some wont.. I don't need to know the reasons why you pick and chose, I said this previously.. I just pointed out beforehand and again now, that you all cherry pick.

I did not anywhere state that I blindly accept any given scripture, this is what you brought up

It is well known as blind faith, and the reason as to why it is called blind faith, because true followers will not expect God to preform miracles to prove him/herself.. They will not demand to see any solid proof of god, and they will not tempt God either

These people will blindly follow god in good heart and spirit, and trust in god through their lives and they don't act as if they are higher than others, they just see god as guidance that is helpful and nothing more.. No ifs, no buts, no expecting god to jump through hoops for them demanding miracles, no, they trust in god enough to just allow themselves to be guided and nothing more..To lay the emphasis on this - Blind faith can be and is for many - The BEST and PUREST faith to hold..

The mistake many of you tend to make is, looking at it in a negative light, thinking that if anyone says you follow something blindly, then that must mean you are stupid and seriously gullible, but that is not always correct... I don't expect god to prove him/herself to me by expecting him to preform tasks, I just like to know I have a spiritual guidance that can be helpful, I don't care for the rest, I keep my faith in god as simple as possible...

As for the bible, I pick and choose too, I chose to beleive that the entire book is illogical, and cannot be true for me, and therefore I chose to follow God in my own way and NOT how some ancient Jewish men and women did in their day, I will not latch on to their beliefs in god, and what is dictated by many preachers.. For me, personal faith is the best faith to hold..I also view it as the purest faith to hold, I can get through life good enough with just that and nothing more...

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Woosh... Tiggs and Leo just flew over my head or was that an elephant? :rofl:

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Take Christians as an example. Their belief in God is not illogical, but a natural consequence of the definition provided in scripture. I would agree it is a choice whether to believe or not, but neither choice is illogical.

If God was both unknown and undefined, then believing in the existence of God would be illogical.

Spock would probably agree :w00t:

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If you seriously follow the bible OR even certain chosen parts of it, then, I have not jumped to any mere conclusion...

Yes you have. You ask me point blank why I would not trust a voice when I do not speculate the bible. I will stand by what I said about this point.

This right here is one of the most common things I have heard ( time and time again ) from doubting Christians... They expect a miracle to be used as proof, for if they don't get one, then the voice or being must be a fake. These kind of Christians are as bad as the non believers, and the irony is, they don't see it....

I see God work miracles every day of my life. I am not a skeptic when it comes to God at all. I do not need to ask for a miracle, because I have already seen them many times. BUT I am not used to hearing a VOICE in my head. I have seen instances where a person hears a voice claiming to be God but it was asking her to do things that were not of God. Now this was a test on her. God tests us and we have to test ourselves. To me listening to God is more than following a voice or even the bible, this was my whole point.

So when following the voice of God you do have to question. For God to prove that He is God he can do whatever he wants to. Don't you think he will want us to be sure that we are going in the right direction? God does prove himself. We can follow blind, which as you state is not a bad thing, but that's what happens anyway. We are always blind to what God is doing, we do not lead the way.

It is most rare to find a true follower who will not demand or even expect a being to preform some miracle just to prove who they are, as this is not what true faith is... Before you say a word, allow me to explain myself a bit more on this...

In ref to this topic and to share with you where I stand on this issue ( if I heard a voice claiming to be God )...

My thoughts are - I am not one who expects miracles, in fact, I do not think that god must answer each and every prayer I say... I could go through years of IE - Bad luck, heartache, suffering and my faith in god remains the same, it never shifts.....Even if I felt like giving up, for some reason the faith hangs on......I have proven this in real life after the loss of my daughter..There were times when I wanted my faith to leave, but it stays regardless, and I seriously cannot tell you why my faith sits tight..

So, when it comes to the OP question of hearing a voice, my answer would be simple.( Bold parts to lay emphasis ).... If the voice was asking me to hurt others and do negative things in my life, then I would know that is not from god, and I would seek professional help.. BUT, if the voice just helps me and guides me through life ( the good and the bad ) then I will not care to question the voice, I sure as heck will not feel I need to push it to preform miracles, I never look a gift horse in the mouth.....Guidance that is helpful to me is more than enough.. I am a selfless human being, and I am happy to be so..

This is good and I agree. I hear God all the time but he does not talk in an Audible voice, so really and truly, me personally I will have to know what I was dealing with. But in general I believe and think like you in the above paragraph.

That is why I feel a bit off when I hear others say they would expect god to preform miracles for them to prove who he really is, I call this doubting and selfish.....Doubting because of the obvious, and selfish because they expect a large task such as a miracle to be done before they will accept it... "Here are some hoops God, now kindly jump through them or get lost"..!!

yes there is a thread here recently on this that I need to go back to and read it. Titled Doubt and Faith by Markdhl (sorry forgot the spelling)

There are two types of testing of God. One I think is ok and God admires, respects and honors when we make petitions and requests and two, the kind that is a smart allec. God knows the difference and if we analyze our spirits we will know the difference too. I look at it like this, God is God, he's gonna do what He wants when He wants and he's going to help us realize what we're dealing with. Some people doubt, yes, its inevitable. Some need a little push from God. I see no problem asking him to help us see that he is real and he does do that when we ask. I don't need to ask for proof of God like a said, but I would not blindly follow a book or a voice. My God is in charge of everything that's happening.

Both of these types of testing are mentioned in the Bible and I wish I were better at quoting scripture. Now this is an example of me using the scriptures, even though I didn't look it up lol, but remembering the lesson in those scriptures knows that part of my spirit is lining up with that train of thought that is experienced by many concerning the concepts of doubt and faith and what is or what is not the spirit of God.

Another thing so many fail to think about is.. If a person believes in satan and tricking demons etc etc, then they should be good enough to be able to trick others into thinking they are from God or even God him/herself.. They can preform the miracles to convince the followers easy, if they couldn't to that, then they are not tricksters.

Many people I have spoken to react the same way or similar.. Example - A person can be so full of pride, that they struggle to admit they do in fact pick and choose what parts of their bible they like to accept and follow, and other parts the skip and leave out.. Why is this? Answer - This does not sound like the actions of a true follower,in fact, it sounds like a half ar*ed job, so they will claim that it is not as simple as that, there is so much more to it...

But, when you sum it all up in one, the truth is, they are still picking and choosing what parts they like, and what they don't bother with.. You all do it, there is not a Christian I can think of that doesn't..So yes, it is cut and dry - Some of it speaks to you and some wont.. I don't need to know the reasons why you pick and chose, I said this previously.. I just pointed out beforehand and again now, that you all cherry pick.

It is well known as blind faith, and the reason as to why it is called blind faith, because true followers will not expect God to preform miracles to prove him/herself.. They will not demand to see any solid proof of god, and they will not tempt God either

These people will blindly follow god in good heart and spirit, and trust in god through their lives and they don't act as if they are higher than others, they just see god as guidance that is helpful and nothing more.. No ifs, no buts, no expecting god to jump through hoops for them demanding miracles, no, they trust in god enough to just allow themselves to be guided and nothing more..To lay the emphasis on this - Blind faith can be and is for many - The BEST and PUREST faith to hold..

The mistake many of you tend to make is, looking at it in a negative light, thinking that if anyone says you follow something blindly, then that must mean you are stupid and seriously gullible, but that is not always correct... I don't expect god to prove him/herself to me by expecting him to preform tasks, I just like to know I have a spiritual guidance that can be helpful, I don't care for the rest, I keep my faith in god as simple as possible...

As for the bible, I pick and choose too, I chose to beleive that the entire book is illogical, and cannot be true for me, and therefore I chose to follow God in my own way and NOT how some ancient Jewish men and women did in their day, I will not latch on to their beliefs in god, and what is dictated by many preachers.. For me, personal faith is the best faith to hold..I also view it as the purest faith to hold, I can get through life good enough with just that and nothing more...

I totally agree that blind faith can be the best thing, also better than having proof, that's why I don't trip with people and the bible. Its very easy to be able to use some parts of the bible and not others for me. Its not a problem, its a good thing and I love it. I can follow Jewish tradition, no problem. I know God has called me to be Christian and that's just the way it is. God bless you and I'm glad you know the Lord.

edit: I am still editing this because I didn't read it all at first. This is actually good

Edited by SpiritWriter
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Woosh... Tiggs and Leo just flew over my head or was that an elephant? :rofl:

Spock would probably agree :w00t:

Okay, okay...I probably get a little ...ummm...involved in debate from time to time. But arguing about something that will never matter to anyone, anywhere, ever is important! :geek:

Everyone knows that! :P

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In ref to this topic and to share with you where I stand on this issue ( if I heard a voice claiming to be God )...

My thoughts are - I am not one who expects miracles, in fact, I do not think that god must answer each and every prayer I say... I could go through years of IE - Bad luck, heartache, suffering and my faith in god remains the same, it never shifts.....Even if I felt like giving up, for some reason the faith hangs on......I have proven this in real life after the loss of my daughter..There were times when I wanted my faith to leave, but it stays regardless, and I seriously cannot tell you why my faith sits tight..

So, when it comes to the OP question of hearing a voice, my answer would be simple.( Bold parts to lay emphasis ).... If the voice was asking me to hurt others and do negative things in my life, then I would know that is not from god, and I would seek professional help.. BUT, if the voice just helps me and guides me through life ( the good and the bad ) then I will not care to question the voice, I sure as heck will not feel I need to push it to preform miracles, I never look a gift horse in the mouth.....Guidance that is helpful to me is more than enough.. I am a selfless human being, and I am happy to be so..

It took me along time to edit that because I didn't read it all the way at first and had to keep reading more of it. So now I have to make a second post lol. Thanks for the thorough response.

**************

so thank you very much. I will tell you I was surprised because the way you were coming at me was like you knew I trusted everything the bible said because I was a blind christian then you turned around and said blind is good and then said you cherry pick the scriptures, you did throw me a curve ball. I liked the discussion but it only happened because you did jump to conclusion about me trusting the scriptures as the voice of god over an actual voice.

For the truth of this topic:

Hearing the voice of God (in audible form)

now and after this discussion, if I were asked that again I would say the same thing. If I heard a voice claiming to be God I would pray and ask to be sure. As a matter of fact I have done this before and God has answered me. It wasn't an audible voice, but I do need reassurance that what I'm dealing with in life is God and he is always there for me. In prayer he has performed miracles and I don't think it is a bad thing for people to get reassurance and I also know he will supply this for us in his very unique way. When dealing with God we always have to analyze our own spirit. I think we will know if we are really testing god, as in trying to control the outcome or actually coming to god with an earnest heart.

I do think an audible voice would be an urgent matter....

Edited by SpiritWriter
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I'm not a sceptic but still my answer here. I'd just chill. And assume I'd still have control over myself and decisions I can make on my own, whether there's one voice or 1000 voices in my head. And say "cool story bro" if the voice wanted an answer. Or anything relevant. Why does it have to be something special? Even if it was god.

And I would not need certification whether it's a god or not, even if there was a good chance it's just some telepathic guy/gal on ma head. I "just know" when I do. And if I dont, well, then, I do have a decent amount of patience too. No need to be hasty.

Edited by Mikko-kun
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An item for the record: awhile back on this thread I was accused of saying that all religion is illogical. All I said is that Christianity is illogical.

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An item for the record: awhile back on this thread I was accused of saying that all religion is illogical. All I said is that Christianity is illogical.

My dear friend, to many Americans it is the ONLY religion they can think of.

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Yes you have. You ask me point blank why I would not trust a voice when I do not speculate the bible. I will stand by what I said about this point.

Once again you are wrong.. For me to accept this from you, I would have to think that in no way what so ever, you use the bible..You know, the same book you claim god speaks to you from? But see, you already admitted you use the bible AND you trust in parts of it, so again no, I did not and have not jumped to any conclusion with ref to you accepting a bible without solid proof and not so much a voice claiming to be god... IF however you came back and told me you do not in any way hold any belief in any part of the bible, and God does not speak to you from it at all, then, yep I did jump to a conclusion in advance, but see, I don't think that is the case...

BUT I am not used to hearing a VOICE in my head. I have seen instances where a person hears a voice claiming to be God but it was asking her to do things that were not of God. Now this was a test on her. God tests us and we have to test ourselves. To me listening to God is more than following a voice or even the bible, this was my whole point.
Don't you think he will want us to be sure that we are going in the right direction?

Again I must ask you, how could you know if the voice in your head is not a trickster?..

We are always blind to what God is doing,

Now, see, that is weird, because previously you said this...-> "I see God work miracles every day of my life". So, is this not the words of a woman who is not that blind, as you clearly can see things you believe god is doing every day?

we do not lead the way.

Heh, tell that to the millions of preachers and church leaders lol

But in general I believe and think like you in the above paragraph.

You might have agreed with part of my post, but there is one thing you and I don't seem to agree with and that is in one hand, you would expect god to preform a miracle to prove him/herself and in the other hand, I wouldn't care to..

yes there is a thread here recently on this that I need to go back to and read it. Titled Doubt and Faith by Markdhl (sorry forgot the spelling)

I wouldn't need to go looking for threads on this sort of thing ( Doubter Christians expecting proof from god ) I have read posts like that for many years..

There are two types of testing of God. One I think is ok and God admires, respects and honors when we make petitions and requests and two, the kind that is a smart allec.

Unlike yourself, I cannot assume I know the mind of god and what god likes and dislikes.. In fact,I cannot begin to comprehend the mind of god. I would be arrogant to assume I know how gods mind works, enough to be able to claim what god likes and dislikes and the fact that we think god tests us, I cannot make those claims, because I cannot know how gods mind works....Besides, we have preachers and know-it'alls along with the holier than thous out there all thinking they know gods mind..

He wants when He wants and he's going to help us realize what we're dealing with. Some people doubt, yes,

I see no reason for god to want or even to test us in any way, for an all knowing god this is illogical.

Both of these types of testing are mentioned in the Bible and I wish I were better at quoting scripture

Which again makes it most illogical. What is written in the bible only comes from the mind of a mere human and not an all knowing being...The two minds completely differ..

God bless you and I'm glad you know the Lord.

Thank you, but I cannot ever know god, all I can tell you is that god does exist but not in the way mankind assumes.. God doesn't need to call on me to become this or that, because god already knows how I will live my life and what the outcome will be..

so thank you very much. I will tell you I was surprised because the way you were coming at me was like you knew I trusted everything the bible

I only got a tiny bit wrong with that, truth is, you only trust in "some parts" of the bible ( as you openly admit in a previous post ) so I was almost correct...

then you turned around and said blind is good

Indeed.

and then said you cherry pick the scriptures,

I wot wot......wot? lol... I think you got that one a bit confused.. Allow me to show you exactly what I did say in ref to the bible and what I in fact do pick and chose... I previously said ( see below )

As for the bible, I pick and choose too, I chose to beleive that the entire book is illogical, and cannot be true for me

The above quote from myself is telling you that I believe the entire bible ( not just parts of it ) is illogical for me.. I do not follow the bible, and will not again..I kicked following the bible in the head many moons ago...

EDIT.. Fixing some errors and I must go now, little Aaron has done a kaka in his nappy ( diaper ) and ohh boy it is ripe, he needs changing.. Catch you later sometime IF I can get on..

Edited by Beckys_Mom
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Just my random two pence worth:

My bible is my heart and the ability to know right from wrong. My mortality and ethics is the foundation of my beliefs that help me determine what is right and what is wrong, not in the eyes of God/The Universe/The powers that be, but what is right based on the values of which have been instilled in me from my childhood.

Note: The use of the word 'bible' in this instance is lowercased on purpose as the true meaning of this is: " 4. ( lowercase ) any book, reference work, periodical, etc., accepted as authoritative, informative, or reliable: He regarded that particular bird book as the birdwatchers' bible." [source: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Bible]

I've always believed in a higher power and over the years it has transformed from and to various forms. The teachings may be different. The sayings may be different. But the constant thing that doesn't seem to change (for me) is that Life is precious and we must do our very best to make the most of it and along the way treat others with kindness, accept that they will think differently and relish in the ability to share knowledge between diversity.

I think the most spiritual way to live is to believe in the power of one's heart, for it is the true manual of life. It's instilled within us all.

Again, just my two pence worth, based on my life experiences and how I view the world personally.

Kind Regards.

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You are applying limited thinking. (and are constrained by too direct/simple definotions of a square and a circle.) A square and a circle can be exactly the same thing. It just depends on the positioning of the dots/lines you use, in your imagination or in reality, to join them up. i cant draw it on here but the concept is easy to understand and imagine.

I am using definitions to establish that a square and a circle are not the exact same thing, nor can they be. As taught in Geometry (the foundation of logic.)

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I am using definitions to establish that a square and a circle are not the exact same thing, nor can they be. As taught in Geometry (the foundation of logic.)

Yes i know. Like i said, limited thinking. Euclidean geometry is very useful as a practical tool, but it is fairly old hat. A square and a circle are definitions we give to objects with certain properties.

If they can have the same properties at the same time, then they can exist as one entity. So, if we find that a square and a circle CAN have the same properties, we must accept they are the same thing, even if we then have to redefine our geometric terms.

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Yes i know. Like i said, limited thinking. Euclidean geometry is very useful as a practical tool, but it is fairly old hat. A square and a circle are definitions we give to objects with certain properties.

If they can have the same properties at the same time, then they can exist as one entity. So, if we find that a square and a circle CAN have the same properties, we must accept they are the same thing, even if we then have to redefine our geometric terms.

MW, the the responsibility of supplying convincing evidence in support of your statement lies with you. Geometrically you have an arsenal of tools at your finger tips, it is further on you to make an intelligent, sensible guess. IMHO you have hit a dead end and may want to pursue another avenue. None the less thank you for your thoughts.

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Mr Walker

A square and a circle are definitions we give to objects with certain properties.

No, "square" and "circle" are defined relationships of abstract points in an abstract space. Physical objects may approximate squares and circles, but there are no physical objects involved in the Euclidean definitions. The practical usefulness of Euclidean geometry is application-dependent. Nothing in the geometry depends on any abstraction being realized physically, beyond a convention for verifying aspects of the geometry by "constructions."

There may well be any number of actual objects, each of which simultaneously resembles a square while also resembling a circle, in one sense or other. There is, however, no square circle, a single closed figure, part of a plane, whose perimeter is everywhere equidistant from a "center" while also being at different distances from that same center.

Your four unconnected points are witty, much as Bart Simpson's famous Lisa-baiting "one hand clapping" is witty, but miss the point of formal geometry, as Bart misses Lisa's point about koans. To call the timeless "old hat" and the well-defined "limited" displays a capacity for contorting language that is wasted on anybody except a politician.

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