Full-face veils are 'inappropriate' in school

[Commander CMG]

• Deputy Prime Minister said veil is also not appropriate at airport security
  
• Dr Sarah Wollaston for Totnes, Devon, say schools 'collude with making women invisible' if they allow niqab
  
• Comments come after Birmingham Metropolitan College reverses ban on full-face veils after students protest
  
• Earlier this week a judge allowed a woman to give evidence in court wearing a burqa for the first time
  

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[Drayno]

I can see that this is going to cause a bit of controversy.

[freetoroam]

Full veils in schools and court? This would not be happening in France!

I just can not believe these people who come out with this, as if we did not know this years back!! Are they really only finding this out now?

[Taun]

They comment that the veils are "religious", yet it was my understanding that the veil is a cultural issue NOT a religious one... (i.e. not required by the Quran/Koran)... Am I incorrect in this thought?

[freetoroam]

I can see that this is going to cause a bit of controversy.

Why should it? If a woman wants to wear a full veil, then great, go ahead....but do it in a muslim country and not on the streets of England.

[Commander CMG]

Full veils in schools and court? This would not be happening in France!

I just can not believe these people who come out with this, as if we did not know this years back!! Are they really only finding this out now?

Muslim woman must remove veil to give trial evidence View: Link

[Arbenol]

I don't think it necessary to go the way of France. A total ban seems excessive. Everyone should have the right to go about completely covered with only their eyes showing if that's what they want (it seems to be a popular look amongst superheros).

The situation changes however when that person enters, and consequently agrees to abide by the rules of, any instituion that bans it. Schools, courts and banks for a start. Any shopkeeper should have the right to insist that their customers are recognisable - the shopper has the right to take their custom elsewhere.

[Keel M.]

They comment that the veils are "religious", yet it was my understanding that the veil is a cultural issue NOT a religious one... (i.e. not required by the Quran/Koran)... Am I incorrect in this thought?

This is from Wikipedia:

There is a difference of opinion amongst scholars in Islam as to whether or not covering the face is obligatory (fard). The niqab has continued to arouse debate between Muslim scholars and jurists both past and present concerning whether it is fard (obligatory), mustahabb(recommended/preferable), or cultural.^[8] The opinions of the four traditional Sunni schools of jurisprudence are as follows:

• Maliki: In the Maliki madhhab, the face and the hands of a woman are not awrah; therefore covering the face is not obligatory. However, Maliki scholars have stated that it is highly recommended (mustahabb) for women to cover their faces.
  
• Hanafi: The Hanafi school does not consider a woman's face to be awrah;however it is still obligatory (wajib) for a woman to cover her face. While the Hanafi school has not completely forbidden a male’s gaze towards a female’s face when there exists absolutely no fear of attraction, the woman has no way of knowing whether the gazes directed towards her are free of desire or not, especially when she is out in public. The Hanafi school has thus obliged women to cover their faces in front of strangers.^[9][10]
  
• Shafi'i: The Shafi'i school has had two well-known positions on this issue. The first view is that covering the face is obligatory at all times when in presence of non-mahram men.^[11] The second view is that covering the face is preferred in general, but obligatory only in a time of fitnah (where men do not lower their gaze; or when a woman is very attractive) ^[12]
  
• Hanbali: According to the Hanbali school, the awrah of a woman is her entire body including her face and her hands. Hence, covering the face is obligatory (fard) in this madhhab.
  
• Salafis : Salafi scholars (with the only exception of Muhammad Nasiruddin al-Albani) state that it is obligatory for a woman to cover her entire body (besides her face and hands) when in public or in presence of non-mahram men.^[13]
  

[Taun]

This is from Wikipedia:

Thanks CB...

[pallidin]

Women wearing veils. That's just disgusting, as what gender gave ANYONE'S actual birth? That's right, WOMEN.

This is so wrong, on so many levels. I'm a male, but this is clearly sexist to an extreme, repugnant degree.

And what about terrorist(male or female) hiding stuff under the clothing with the guise of being a strict Muslim woman?

Sorry, but this is so stupid I must now step away for a moment and puke.

Edited September 16, 2013 by pallidin

[Leonardo]

Overseas students come into this country and receive benefits to enable them to learn and achieve scholastic awards. If some of these students wear full-face coverings while attending whatever academic institute they apply to, how are we to know it is actually them learning and, presumably, passing exams?

In any situation where the identity of the person is required to be established, the need for this identity to be established should override any religious/cultural beliefs. This is a secular society. While people are free to practice their religion without prejudice, the rules of the society are based upon secular principles and those principles should not come second to religious beliefs.

[Wickian]

Are students allowed to attend class in Halloween masks year-round? If not then face veils shouldn't be allowed either.

[+and-then]

This is from Wikipedia:

I realize that here in the west we oversexualize almost everything AND that this leads to crime and social problems. This has occurred in my lifetime. I can remember the absolute horror of the "old folks" when I was a boy in the 60's and the mini skirts became the rage. So modesty has a lot going for it but I think almost any other culture on earth by comparison to Islam would be extreme if Islam is correct. Men absolutely dominant and women little more than chattel. I think it's disgusting. I think one of the reasons they seem to want to fight EVERYTHING is the repressed sexual tension.

The veil should be allowed in places in public where there are no legal or safety concerns. And I should be able to point, laugh and make a fool of myself about it when I see it

Edited September 16, 2013 by and then

[freetoroam]

There are women who are oppressed in muslim countries, women who get stoned for refusing to obey their husband, and yet we have women in England walking around with these veils as if its a fashion statement.

Personally, not only do I find it a 2 fingers up towards the western world, it is a complete utter disrespect and insult to all those oppressed muslim women who have been stoned or killed fighting for their right NOT to wear it!!

[Drayno]

Overseas students come into this country and receive benefits to enable them to learn and achieve scholastic awards. If some of these students wear full-face coverings while attending whatever academic institute they apply to, how are we to know it is actually them learning and, presumably, passing exams?

In any situation where the identity of the person is required to be established, the need for this identity to be established should override any religious/cultural beliefs. This is a secular society. While people are free to practice their religion without prejudice, the rules of the society are based upon secular principles and those principles should not come second to religious beliefs.

Very clear reasoning, Leo.

Good post.

[spud the mackem]

When school comes out and these veiled Ladies are all standing around waiting for their kids,covered from head to feet in black gear,how do the kids know which one is their mom ?

I cannot see why these people walk around looking like plastic bin bags.

[Ealdwita]

I cannot see why these people walk around looking like plastic bin bags.

They do it firstly to raise the profile of Islam (part of their 'rule the world' project). Secondly - because they know it divides and therefore weakens the opinions of non-Muslims. Thirdly - it's the Islamic equivalent of 'the finger'!

[shadowhive]

Overseas students come into this country and receive benefits to enable them to learn and achieve scholastic awards. If some of these students wear full-face coverings while attending whatever academic institute they apply to, how are we to know it is actually them learning and, presumably, passing exams?

In any situation where the identity of the person is required to be established, the need for this identity to be established should override any religious/cultural beliefs. This is a secular society. While people are free to practice their religion without prejudice, the rules of the society are based upon secular principles and those principles should not come second to religious beliefs.

Very well said.

The full face covering is very much an obvious issue for reasons that aren' religious. Facial recognition and identification is important in many areas. If I went in a school/bank/shop with a mask covering my face I'd be asked to take it off for those reasons. Why should it be any different for them?

[Aggie]

I agree everybody is entitled to wear whatever they want but, like others have said, it's a matter of safety....you can't tell who is hiding under a burka, there have been criminals that have escaped wearing burkas.

My daughter (9) once asked me why they cover with a burka and I told her it's part of their culture or religion. I also told her I don't agree with it cause if there was a God and he wanted us to cover our bodies from head to toes, then surely we would be born wearing clothes.....but we are not, we are born naked.

[Commander CMG]

:ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r: My Ninja army are keeping covered up. :ph34r: :ph34r: :ph34r:

[itsnotoutthere]

Perhaps the answer is to allow muslim women to wear the veil if they so wish. But then make it legal for any school, shop or employer to refuse them entry to their establishment without fear of prosecution, after all it is all about freedom of choice. Seems fair.

[Arbenol]

Perhaps the answer is to allow muslim women to wear the veil if they so wish. But then make it legal for any school, shop or employer to refuse them entry to their establishment without fear of prosecution, after all it is all about freedom of choice. Seems fair.

That makes far too much sense. They'll never consider it.

[s33ker]

There are women who are oppressed in muslim countries, women who get stoned for refusing to obey their husband, and yet we have women in England walking around with these veils as if its a fashion statement.

Personally, not only do I find it a 2 fingers up towards the western world, it is a complete utter disrespect and insult to all those oppressed muslim women who have been stoned or killed fighting for their right NOT to wear it!!

Exactly what freet says, but with afew Fwords thrown in.

[pallidin]

Perhaps the answer is to allow muslim women to wear the veil if they so wish. But then make it legal for any school, shop or employer to refuse them entry to their establishment without fear of prosecution, after all it is all about freedom of choice. Seems fair.

That's total BS, and you know it. Perhaps you're just being sarcastic.

Hidden identity, even if for a moment, is an important security issue around the ENTIRE modern world, for OBVIOUS reasons.

While I'm at my rant, I really hate the idea that women, in some countries, must wear veils and other full covering clothing while in public, getting beat if they do not, and again, in some countries, are not allowed to even drive a car.

This is beyond sick, in my opinion.

[itsnotoutthere]

That's total BS, and you know it. Perhaps you're just being sarcastic.

Hidden identity, even if for a moment, is an important security issue around the ENTIRE modern world, for OBVIOUS reasons.

While I'm at my rant, I really hate the idea that women, in some countries, must wear veils and other full covering clothing while in public, getting beat if they do not, and again, in some countries, are not allowed to even drive a car.

This is beyond sick, in my opinion.

Well it was rather tongue in cheek.

What I actually believe is that anyone who decides to live in another country should by doing so accept & abide by the rules & laws of that country, and not by stealth try to influence and change the laws in that country. In some strict muslim countries western holiday makers have been jailed for kissing their partners in public.

Despite what anyone says the veil is simply another way for muslim men to subjugate their women & nothing more. And It amuses me no end that the so called 'progressive feminists' (feminist journalists in particular & usually of the liberal left persuasion) in this country, you know, the sort that get all hot under the collar about 'lads mags' can be guaranteed to fall uncharacteristically silent in the face of male muslim oppression of their partners & the double standards that 'progressive feminists' display in this area I find truly nauseating.

Edited September 17, 2013 by itsnotoutthere