Doubt and faith

[Philangeli]

I think the problem is that you get frustrated to be told about aberrations which you thought could never be in your NT. Well, you guys don't read it, and when you do, you don't see these things for having been told by Paul to walk by faith and not by sight. Read II Cor. 5:7.

I don’t feel frustrated at all – in fact, quite the opposite.

I actually applaud you for giving me the opportunity to delve into the NT more deeply. It has actually helped me realize Christian truths more deeply. So, thank you for that.

There are bound to be inconsistencies in the NT. The books were compiled by various authors several years after Christ died. There were many copies in circulation. Regardless of who preached what and when, the main tenets of the faith still stand: that Christ is the Son of God, that he died, rose again and ascended into heaven. The early Christians didn’t have those books to fall back on – they received the word directly from the Apostles themselves, those who knew Jesus. How good that must have been!

It matters little to me if there are inconsistencies in the NT, and It matters little to me if you spend the rest of your life nit-picking and poring over verses in the NT, trying to prove your theories and adhering to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it.

IMO, that leads to a hardening of the heart and spirit - and Jesus had a fair bit to say about that, didn't he, Ben?

Edited October 25, 2013 by Philangeli

[Ben Masada]

I don’t feel frustrated at all – in fact, quite the opposite. I actually applaud you for giving me the opportunity to delve into the NT more deeply. It has actually helped me realize Christian truths more deeply. So, thank you for that.

You are definitely welcome. I am glad you have shared with me your acknowledgement.

There are bound to be inconsistencies in the NT. The books were compiled by various authors several years after Christ died. There were many copies in circulation. Regardless of who preached what and when, the main tenets of the faith still stand: that Christ is the Son of God, that he died, rose again and ascended into heaven. The early Christians didn’t have those books to fall back on – they received the word directly from the Apostles themselves, those who knew Jesus. How good that must have been!

Now you are attributing to Jesus a Greek identity because as an individual Jew, he could never be Christ or son of God. That he died, no argument but that he rose again and ascended to heaven you are back to the Greek myth. According to his Faith which was Judaism there are no such beliefs about a Jewish man. Only the Hellenistic Jew that Paul was could have fabricated that background. Read II Tim.2:8. If Christians had received from anything teachings of the Apostles they would not preach according to the gospel of Paul. (II Cor.3-6, 13)

It matters little to me if there are inconsistencies in the NT, and It matters little to me if you spend the rest of your life nit-picking and poring over verses in the NT, trying to prove your theories and adhering to the letter of the law rather than the spirit of it.

Well, at least by adhering to the letter of the Law, I am in tune with how Jesus behaved if you read Mat. 5:17-19 and Luke 16:29-31. Jesus went down to the letter of the Law to teach that the only way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law.

IMO, that leads to a hardening of the heart and spirit - and Jesus had a fair bit to say about that, didn't he, Ben?

Yes, he did it indeed if you read those two texts I have just mentioned above.(Mat.5:17-19 and Luke 16:21)

[+joc]

Really! You did not know that we have a longer week to work than in Christian countries? Our week working days starts Sunday and ends Friday; just as the commandment says: "Six days shall thou labor and do all your work..." In other countries the weekend is composed of two days and not one like ours.

So you are okay with Cherry Picking commandments then?

[Ben Masada]

So you are okay with Cherry Picking commandments then?

In that case, I am all ears for the quotes about my cherry picking. Care to show them?

[+joc]

In that case, I am all ears for the quotes about my cherry picking. Care to show them?

Well, you did say, "Six days shall thou labor and do all your work...".

So, you keep that commandment...but have you stoned anyone to death lately? Have any of the Israelis stoned to death anyone lately? When is the last time you sacrificed?

[Ben Masada]

Well, you did say, "Six days shall thou labor and do all your work...".

So, you keep that commandment...but have you stoned anyone to death lately? Have any of the Israelis stoned to death anyone lately? When is the last time you sacrificed?

Any law given with a punishment to stone him or her to death, was only in terms of a warranty to prevent the commandment from being broken. But usually it would never be applied. Regarding sacrifices, for two reason they are no longer needed. First because the Temple has been destroyed. and second because the prophetic reason for the sacrifices was to point to the Atonement of Judah by Israel for the fulfillment of Psalm 78:67-69 when Israel the Ten Tribes had to be divinely rejected so that Judah be confirmed to remain in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

Edited November 1, 2013 by Ben Masada

[+joc]

Any law given with a punishment to stone him or her to death, was only in terms of a warranty to prevent the commandment from being broken. But usually it would never be applied. Regarding sacrifices, for two reason they are no longer needed. First because the Temple has been destroyed. and second because the prophetic reason for the sacrifices was to point to the Atonement of Judah by Israel for the fulfillment of Psalm 78:67-69 when Israel the Ten Tribes had to be divinely rejected so that Judah be confirmed to remain in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

Interesting. ...and just as I thought... The Jews twist scripture to meet their own God Equation just like the Christians...here's a surprise, Muslims also twist the Koran.

Btw, I'm not slamming you or your religion. It is perfectly fine with me for you to believe whatever you do. But...If GOD said to stone homosexuals and adulterers...then that would be GOD'S law and if you follow GOD'S law then you should follow ALL of it. Where is GOD lately anyway? He always spoke to the Jewish Prophets telling them this or that, kill this group of people, genocide this group, destroy this, destroy that. Where are the Israeli Prophets? I guess there is nothing left to prophecy because Israel is too afraid of reprisals if they were to rebuild the Holy Temple and re-institute Sacrifices...but I digress.

[Ben Masada]

Interesting. ...and just as I thought... The Jews twist scripture to meet their own God Equation just like the Christians...here's a surprise, Muslims also twist the Koran.

Btw, I'm not slamming you or your religion. It is perfectly fine with me for you to believe whatever you do. But...If GOD said to stone homosexuals and adulterers...then that would be GOD'S law and if you follow GOD'S law then you should follow ALL of it. Where is GOD lately anyway? He always spoke to the Jewish Prophets telling them this or that, kill this group of people, genocide this group, destroy this, destroy that. Where are the Israeli Prophets? I guess there is nothing left to prophecy because Israel is too afraid of reprisals if they were to rebuild the Holy Temple and re-institute Sacrifices...but I digress.

"Their own God" is not totally correct but the Only God as there is no other. God is Absolutely One. God did not say to stone homosexuals. The writer of Torah just found the style too unnatural and an aberration among men that he stated that for a man to be caught in bad behaving as a woman to another man, both would be stoned to death but there is not a single case in record that one was ever executed.

Now with regarding to killing other peoples so that they took possession of their land, it was a common thing about migrations at that time. The custom was to kill all to prevent an insurrection later. Then they all would attribute their successes to their gods as the Hebrews would do the same but not that literally God would have designed them to behave thus. There were many migrations groups which would do the same. The Hittites, Canaanites, Philistines and you mention. All did the same.

[Philangeli]

You are definitely welcome. I am glad you have shared with me your acknowledgement.

Strange logic you have - being glad that your riposts actually strengthen my (and others, probably) Christian beliefs!

Now you are attributing to Jesus a Greek identity because as an individual Jew, he could never be Christ or son of God. That he died, no argument but that he rose again and ascended to heaven you are back to the Greek myth. According to his Faith which was Judaism there are no such beliefs about a Jewish man. Only the Hellenistic Jew that Paul was could have fabricated that background. Read II Tim.2:8. If Christians had received from anything teachings of the Apostles they would not preach according to the gospel of Paul. (II Cor.3-6, 13)

There are many different kinds of Jews, so what exactly is an 'individual Jew'? I get the impression (I may be wrong) that you consider yourself to be 'one individual Jew', and nothing else. Is that true?

Well, at least by adhering to the letter of the Law, I am in tune with how Jesus behaved if you read Mat. 5:17-19 and Luke 16:29-31. Jesus went down to the letter of the Law to teach that the only way to escape hell is by listening to "Moses" which means the Law.

By adhering to the letter of the Law, you remain a slave to the law. Where does love and true, spiritual freedom feature in this constricting, restrictive world of yours? Where does sharing your faith with all mankind feature? What a ridiculous view to hold - I adhere to the letter of the Law, so I am guaranteed to go to heaven (even though I have a heart of stone and haven't a clue what love is about). I don't mean you personally, but it reminds me of certain types from various faiths (including Christianity).

[Ben Masada]

Strange logic you have - being glad that your riposts actually strengthen my (and others, probably) Christian beliefs!

Well, what's life without illusions? Illusion is akin to habit which is stronger than hatred.

There are many different kinds of Jews, so what exactly is an 'individual Jew'? I get the impression (I may be wrong) that you consider yourself to be 'one individual Jew', and nothing else. Is that true?

Wrong! I am nothing as an individual and every thing as part of the Jewish People that as long as the natural laws function properly will remain as a People before the Lord forever. Read Jeremiah 31:35-37.

By adhering to the letter of the Law, you remain a slave to the law. Where does love and true, spiritual freedom feature in this constricting, restrictive world of yours? Where does sharing your faith with all mankind feature? What a ridiculous view to hold - I adhere to the letter of the Law, so I am guaranteed to go to heaven (even though I have a heart of stone and haven't a clue what love is about). I don't mean you personally, but it reminds me of certain types from various faiths (including Christianity).

Wrong again! By adhering to the letter of the Law I remain immune from the punishment that comes as a result of transgressing the Law.Only the Law gives you freedom from its long and reachable arms. By sharing my Faith with the rest of Mankind I am sharing with Mankind freedom from the troubles that come as a result of transgressing the Law. What is really ridiculous is the need to be treated with a promise of reward in heaven in order to behave according to the Law. Only dogs and slaves work according to that policy. I don't believe in heaven as a place to go to but as a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to allow into ourselves. (Luke 17:21).

[Philangeli]

Wrong again! By adhering to the letter of the Law I remain immune from the punishment that comes as a result of transgressing the Law.Only the Law gives you freedom from its long and reachable arms. By sharing my Faith with the rest of Mankind I am sharing with Mankind freedom from the troubles that come as a result of transgressing the Law. What is really ridiculous is the need to be treated with a promise of reward in heaven in order to behave according to the Law. Only dogs and slaves work according to that policy. I don't believe in heaven as a place to go to but as a peaceful state of mind we are supposed to allow into ourselves. (Luke 17:21).

So, as a Law abiding Jew, if your family were starving and someone offered to pay you 100 dollars on the Sabbath to do an hour's work, obviously, you would refuse and let your family starve to death.

Do you adhere to the Law because you are afraid to be punished if you break it? Or, do you adhere to it naturally, out of love, because you are spiritually free, a child of God, who has transcended the 'guilt' stage of a fearful slave, who has to be kept on a leash?

[+joc]

"Their own God" is not totally correct but the Only God as there is no other. God is Absolutely One. God did not say to stone homosexuals. The writer of Torah just found the style too unnatural and an aberration among men that he stated that for a man to be caught in bad behaving as a woman to another man, both would be stoned to death but there is not a single case in record that one was ever executed.

Now with regarding to killing other peoples so that they took possession of their land, it was a common thing about migrations at that time. The custom was to kill all to prevent an insurrection later. Then they all would attribute their successes to their gods as the Hebrews would do the same but not that literally God would have designed them to behave thus. There were many migrations groups which would do the same. The Hittites, Canaanites, Philistines and you mention. All did the same.

BS

1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

Leviticus 20

English Standard Version (ESV)

20 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ² “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. ³ I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name.

⁴ And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, ⁵ then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.

⁶ “If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. ⁷ Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God. ⁸ Keep my statutes and do them; I am the Lord who sanctifies you. ⁹ For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

Punishments for Sexual Immorality

¹⁰ “If a man commits adultery with the wife of^[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

¹¹ If a man lies with his father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

¹² If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them.

¹³ If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

¹⁴ If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you.

¹⁵ If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. ¹⁶ If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Sounds pretty cut and dried to me bro. These were not suggestions...these were Commandments...THOU SHALL kill the babies, kill the homos, kill the adulterers, etc. Just sayin'...you can undetach that anyway you want...I'm just telling you what it says...so...the rub is this...if you cannot take what God says for the Truth...just like he says it...as do the Muslims...then how can you take any of the Bible seriously? Seriously!

[Ben Masada]

So, as a Law abiding Jew, if your family were starving and someone offered to pay you 100 dollars on the Sabbath to do an hour's work, obviously, you would refuse and let your family starve to death.

Do you adhere to the Law because you are afraid to be punished if you break it? Or, do you adhere to it naturally, out of love, because you are spiritually free, a child of God, who has transcended the 'guilt' stage of a fearful slave, who has to be kept on a leash?

You are totally wrong on Jewish culture in two counts. In the case of a life being in danger whether of my family or that of anyone else that depends on me to save it, even the life of an animal, we have the concept of "Pichuach Nephesh" that allows us to work on the Sabbath or break any other commandment to save that life. Jews don't obey God's Law because they are afraid to be punished but because it is part of the Jewish second nature.

[Ben Masada]

1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

"Zeal for the House of Israel consumes me." This was very common in the mouth of the Prophets. Than in their dreams and visions they would design their decisions. God had nothing to do with killing any one. God is not like a man to kill another especially animals. (Numb. 12:6)

]20 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ² “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. ³ I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name.[/b]

Moses brought that message after a dream or vision. It means that the decision was his and not of God to eradicate the practice of idolatry from among the People.

And if the people of the land do at all close their eyes to that man when he gives one of his children to Molech, and do not put him to death, ⁵ then I will set my face against that man and against his clan and will cut them off from among their people, him and all who follow him in whoring after Molech.

Same as above.

“If a person turns to mediums and necromancers, whoring after them, I will set my face against that person and will cut him off from among his people. Consecrate yourselves, therefore, and be holy, for I am the Lord your God. ⁸ Keep my statutes and do them; I am the Lord who sanctifies you. For anyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death; he has cursed his father or his mother; his blood is upon him.

That's the same as state laws today that prohibit multiple marriages. State laws of that time would prohibit witchcraft. Only that Theocratic governments would name their decisions as divine resolutions to enhance the laws.

]Punishments for Sexual Immorality [/b]¹⁰ “If a man commits adultery with the wife of^[a] his neighbor, both the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. ¹¹ If a man lies with his father's wife, he has uncovered his father's nakedness; both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. ¹² If a man lies with his daughter-in-law, both of them shall surely be put to death; they have committed perversion; their blood is upon them. ¹³ If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them. ¹⁴ If a man takes a woman and her mother also, it is depravity; he and they shall be burned with fire, that there may be no depravity among you. ¹⁵ If a man lies with an animal, he shall surely be put to death, and you shall kill the animal. ¹⁶ If a woman approaches any animal and lies with it, you shall kill the woman and the animal; they shall surely be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Those above were only law statements to warrant the probability for unlawful behaviors but they were never actually applied in the history of Israel. They served only as fences around a propriety in a land of ethical people.

Sounds pretty cut and dried to me bro. These were not suggestions...these were Commandments...THOU SHALL kill the babies, kill the homos, kill the adulterers, etc. Just sayin'...you can undetach that anyway you want...I'm just telling you what it says...so...the rub is this...if you cannot take what God says for the Truth...just like he says it...as do the Muslims...then how can you take any of the Bible seriously? Seriously!

Yes, but God did not say what you claim above. Humans legislators or religious leaders did it to preserve harmony and peace in society. I think your idea of God is too anthropomorphic. Too Christian in other words.

Edited November 9, 2013 by Ben Masada

[buckskin scout]

Any law given with a punishment to stone him or her to death, was only in terms of a warranty to prevent the commandment from being broken. But usually it would never be applied. Regarding sacrifices, for two reason they are no longer needed. First because the Temple has been destroyed. and second because the prophetic reason for the sacrifices was to point to the Atonement of Judah by Israel for the fulfillment of Psalm 78:67-69 when Israel the Ten Tribes had to be divinely rejected so that Judah be confirmed to remain in Jerusalem forever. (I Kings 11:36)

No because the Kingdom of Israel was more apostate than the Kingdom of Judah is the real reason. Every king IIRC that representeed the Kingdom of Israel were bad. But there were good kings, bad kings, and lukewarm kings representing the Kingdom of Judah. Judah was a mixed bag but Israel was ALL bad.

Even so, Babylon took Judah captive for her sins and adultery against God and the Spirit of God abandoned the Temple.

Edited November 9, 2013 by GoSC

[Leonardo]

"Their own God" is not totally correct but the Only God as there is no other. God is Absolutely One. God did not say to stone homosexuals. The writer of Torah just found the style too unnatural and an aberration among men that he stated that for a man to be caught in bad behaving as a woman to another man, both would be stoned to death but there is not a single case in record that one was ever executed.

Now with regarding to killing other peoples so that they took possession of their land, it was a common thing about migrations at that time. The custom was to kill all to prevent an insurrection later. Then they all would attribute their successes to their gods as the Hebrews would do the same but not that literally God would have designed them to behave thus. There were many migrations groups which would do the same. The Hittites, Canaanites, Philistines and you mention. All did the same.

If you do not belive the Laws in scripture derive from the divine (or God) then why do you believe anything else scripture has to say on the subject of God?

All you are doing is cherry-picking to rationalise where your belief derives from to the accepted mores of modern society.

[Ben Masada]

No because the Kingdom of Israel was more apostate than the Kingdom of Judah is the real reason. Every king IIRC that representeed the Kingdom of Israel were bad. But there were good kings, bad kings, and lukewarm kings representing the Kingdom of Judah. Judah was a mixed bag but Israel was ALL bad.

Even so, Babylon took Judah captive for her sins and adultery against God and the Spirit of God abandoned the Temple.

Yes, but it happens that Israel did not "die" for her sins but for the sins of Judah. Therefore, Israel was sacrificed not for her sins but for the sins of another. It means that Israel was innocent of the sins she died for. Israel was rejected and removed from the Land of Israel so that Judah was confirmed to remain over the whole Land. Read Psalm 78:67-69. That's when Messiah ben Joseph aka Israel died for the sins of Messiah ben David aka Judah.

[Ben Masada]

If you do not belive the Laws in scripture derive from the divine (or God) then why do you believe anything else scripture has to say on the subject of God?

All you are doing is cherry-picking to rationalise where your belief derives from to the accepted mores of modern society.

No, it is not. Your problem is that you are a member of the literal interpretation club. To understand the Bible without causing contradiction the reader must have some expertise in metaphorical language. Otherwise he or she won't be any different from believers of talking serpents who serve only to entertain atheists.

[buckskin scout]

Yes, but it happens that Israel did not "die" for her sins but for the sins of Judah. Therefore, Israel was sacrificed not for her sins but for the sins of another. It means that Israel was innocent of the sins she died for. Israel was rejected and removed from the Land of Israel so that Judah was confirmed to remain over the whole Land. Read Psalm 78:67-69. That's when Messiah ben Joseph aka Israel died for the sins of Messiah ben David aka Judah.

What a load of baloney. Jeremiah 31:30 & Ezekiel 18:20

[+joc]

1 Samuel 15:2-3, God commanded Saul and the Israelites, “This is what the LORD Almighty says: 'I will punish the Amalekites for what they did to Israel when they waylaid them as they came up from Egypt. Now go, attack the Amalekites and totally destroy everything that belongs to them. Do not spare them; put to death men and women, children and infants, cattle and sheep, camels and donkeys.'

"Zeal for the House of Israel consumes me." This was very common in the mouth of the Prophets. Than in their dreams and visions they would design their decisions. God had nothing to do with killing any one. God is not like a man to kill another especially animals. (Numb. 12:6)

20 The Lord spoke to Moses, saying, ² “Say to the people of Israel, Any one of the people of Israel or of the strangers who sojourn in Israel who gives any of his children to Molech shall surely be put to death. The people of the land shall stone him with stones. ³ I myself will set my face against that man and will cut him off from among his people, because he has given one of his children to Molech, to make my sanctuary unclean and to profane my holy name.

Moses brought that message after a dream or vision. It means that the decision was his and not of God to eradicate the practice of idolatry from among the People.

Fine. You just made my point. God had nothing to do with anything. The Prophets gave the commandments...in the name of God...in the name of ...God...whom the Prophets also created after a dream or vision.

Thank you for validating!

[Philangeli]

You are totally wrong on Jewish culture in two counts. In the case of a life being in danger whether of my family or that of anyone else that depends on me to save it, even the life of an animal, we have the concept of "Pichuach Nephesh" that allows us to work on the Sabbath or break any other commandment to save that life.

So, why did the Pharisees criticize Jesus for healing on the Sabbath?

Jews don't obey God's Law because they are afraid to be punished but because it is part of the Jewish second nature.

If they are obeying God's Laws, why are they still being punished after 2,000 years? It seems to me that robotically obeying laws doesn't bring much spiritual solace. Do you think obeying laws necessarily makes you a 'good' person?

You mentioned previously that you don't believe in hell and that obeying God's Laws gives you peace of mind. So, you just obey them to give you peace of mind? That is the most inane, egocentric, unspiritual view I think I have ever come across on any forum.

[+Link of Hyrule]

Yes, but it happens that Israel did not "die" for her sins but for the sins of Judah. Therefore, Israel was sacrificed not for her sins but for the sins of another. It means that Israel was innocent of the sins she died for. Israel was rejected and removed from the Land of Israel so that Judah was confirmed to remain over the whole Land. Read Psalm 78:67-69. That's when Messiah ben Joseph aka Israel died for the sins of Messiah ben David aka Judah.

I don't necessarily agree with your assertion (the reason the Northern kingdom of Israel was destroyed in 722 BC was because of their own sin in going against God), but presuming your comments here reflect your own beliefs, doesn't that contradict your interpretation of Jeremiah 31:30?

[nothingman]

One of my favorite quotes due to its extreme profundity:

Life is doubt and faith without doubt is nothing but death ~ Miguel de Unamuno

Ecclesiastes 3:

There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under the heavens: a time to be born and a time to die...

(A time for faith and a time to die)

Faith and doubt: the ingredients for all seasons...

[Ben Masada]

What a load of baloney. Jeremiah 31:30 & Ezekiel 18:20.

Baloney is to admit that an individual can die for the sins of another. You quote the right texts above and don't even understand why you have quoted them. I agree with Jeremiah and Ezekiel. You are the one whom I cannot agree with. I spoke about a people (Ephraim) being sacrificed for the sins of another (Judah) as ancient Israel was rejected by God so that Judah be confirmed. My assertion is historically documented when Ephraim the Ten Tribes were removed by Assyria in 622 BCE for good from the Land of Israel and Judah stayed as the real proprietor over the whole Land of Israel for the next 131 years according to Josephus. (Psalm 78:67-69)

[Ben Masada]

Fine. You just made my point. God had nothing to do with anything. The Prophets gave the commandments...in the name of God...in the name of ...God...whom the Prophets also created after a dream or vision.

Thank you for validating!

All right 'joc', I am glad you got the point as it is all down in Numbers 12:6. I am saying nothing out of the top of my head.