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danielost

why do non-believers always

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spacecowboy342

It is amazing that so much has been learned since 1956 and answers for many of our problems haven't been found yet. The opposite is rather true that MANY of our ills have multiplied and many others been born.

Yeah, like somebody said there's a solution for every problem and a problem for every solution. I doubt we'll ever learn everything.

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Davros of Skaro

Well, I don't know would be the most honest answer, but speculating I think space-time was an emergent property when the universe changed states from 0 energy and 0 volume to an almost infinite energy state of inflation. God did it is a possible explanation. There is no way to disprove it, making it unfalsifiable and a completely unsatisfying in my view. If God did it I want to know how. Theists seem to have a double standard here wanting a perfect self consistant explanation from science for how this came about, which I want as well, but then seem content with God did it assuming, being God, His magic would have been up to the job. There are many theories about time though so, I guess we'll have to go with I don't know, for now. I'm not saying that there is evidence that theists are wrong about God did it, just that there are other possibilities so logic alone can't show God must have done it

Even if a God by the standard of an omnipotent supernatural deity made this fantastic, and wonderous universe, does not mean it was the same thing described in Leviticus that ordered a Man stoned to death for collecting sticks on the Sabbath.

If Yahweh was real, I see him as being like "Trelane" in the Star Trek TOS episode "The Squire of Gothos." Except Yahweh is more like the child with a magnifying glass over an Ant hill on a sunny day.

Edited by davros of skaro
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mimilovell

because in today society, being a believing anything outside well known science is made to be looked down upon. And following orders is the sane thing to do, rather than believe in possibilities.

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Paranoid Android

Well, I don't know would be the most honest answer, but speculating I think space-time was an emergent property when the universe changed states from 0 energy and 0 volume to an almost infinite energy state of inflation. God did it is a possible explanation. There is no way to disprove it, making it unfalsifiable and a completely unsatisfying in my view. If God did it I want to know how. Theists seem to have a double standard here wanting a perfect self consistant explanation from science for how this came about, which I want as well, but then seem content with God did it assuming, being God, His magic would have been up to the job. There are many theories about time though so, I guess we'll have to go with I don't know, for now. I'm not saying that there is evidence that theists are wrong about God did it, just that there are other possibilities so logic alone can't show God must have done it

And I'm not arguing that logic alone does show God must have done it. As for the rest, I do tend to agree, though I'm not quite sure what you mean by the "double standards" of theists. I don't really care about scientific evidence for God, never have and never will. Maybe you're making a more general comment about believers, though, in which case you may or may not have a valid point, depending on who you're referring to.

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Davros of Skaro

because in today society, being a believing anything outside well known science is made to be looked down upon. And following orders is the sane thing to do, rather than believe in possibilities.

Nobody is following orders except believers in an unprovable deity.

Edit-besides soldiers, and such.

Edited by davros of skaro
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spacecowboy342

because in today society, being a believing anything outside well known science is made to be looked down upon. And following orders is the sane thing to do, rather than believe in possibilities.

Hogwash
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Ben Masada

Yeah, like somebody said there's a solution for every problem and a problem for every solution. I doubt we'll ever learn everything.

Every thing? Learning is all that life is about. Life would not be worth living if there was nothing new to learn. It is like the breath of life we cannot live without.

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spacecowboy342

Every thing? Learning is all that life is about. Life would not be worth living if there was nothing new to learn. It is like the breath of life we cannot live without.

For once we are in complete agreement

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Mr Walker

Even if a God by the standard of an omnipotent supernatural deity made this fantastic, and wonderous universe, does not mean it was the same thing described in Leviticus that ordered a Man stoned to death for collecting sticks on the Sabbath.

If Yahweh was real, I see him as being like "Trelane" in the Star Trek TOS episode "The Squire of Gothos." Except Yahweh is more like the child with a magnifying glass over an Ant hill on a sunny day.

This is not meant to be a personal comment , (I don't know anyone on UM well enough to make personal comments about them) but it struck me strongly after reading this post, and thinking of many other similar ones, that people who see god, or atheists who see mankind, as more evil than good must get this idea from in their own heads and hearts. Thus it must speak something about them selves as much as the objective state of humanity. The reverse is also true. I see god and humanity as more good than evil although we both have the capacity/potential to chose either and to create or destroy. I KNOW that I feel this way because of how I see myself, and how I strive to make myself as a human being in mind and body.

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Mr Walker

Nobody is following orders except believers in an unprovable deity.

Edit-besides soldiers, and such.

All law abiding citizens are obeying the orders of another. When you drive on the correct side of the road you are obeying an order to do so. When you send your kids to school you are obeying an order to do so. When you follow instructions at work you are obeying an order from someone else. We are so brought up to obey that few even realise they are trained to do so. To test this out, just try disobeying the rules laws and expectations of your society, or those around you, for a day.

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Davros of Skaro

This is not meant to be a personal comment , (I don't know anyone on UM well enough to make personal comments about them) but it struck me strongly after reading this post, and thinking of many other similar ones, that people who see god, or atheists who see mankind, as more evil than good must get this idea from in their own heads and hearts. Thus it must speak something about them selves as much as the objective state of humanity. The reverse is also true. I see god and humanity as more good than evil although we both have the capacity/potential to chose either and to create or destroy. I KNOW that I feel this way because of how I see myself, and how I strive to make myself as a human being in mind and body.

We are all sinners that fall short to the glory of God.The Father sent his only Son in whom he was pleased with to take on our Sin.Salvation are for those that repent, humble themselves to God, accept this sacrifice of love in their heart and mind.God will have a righteous harvest for the deserving, and most importantly the obiedient.

All law abiding citizens are obeying the orders of another. When you drive on the correct side of the road you are obeying an order to do so. When you send your kids to school you are obeying an order to do so. When you follow instructions at work you are obeying an order from someone else. We are so brought up to obey that few even realise they are trained to do so. To test this out, just try disobeying the rules laws and expectations of your society, or those around you, for a day.

To disobey the law is to disobey God's will.

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spacecowboy342

What about those like me, who don't believe in good and evil?

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Mr Walker

We are all sinners that fall short to the glory of God.The Father sent his only Son in whom he was pleased with to take on our Sin.Salvation are for those that repent, humble themselves to God, accept this sacrifice of love in their heart and mind.God will have a righteous harvest for the deserving, and most importantly the obiedient.

To disobey the law is to disobey God's will.

If we are made in the image of god, then god and we are equal in nature and in potential. If we fall short of the glory of god, it is only because we choose to, in the decisions we make in life. Christ provided a way of life and living, which enables us to be filled with or become one with the glory of god. If we chose a different form of life, then we cannot be one with god, or experience his power and glory. One does not have to be a Christian to be one with god or to be filled with his spirit power and glory; this is the potential birthright of every human being of any time and place. We just have to recognise it and take it on board ourselves.

Yes, one must be humble, and understand oneself, to live a life like this. Self, and glorification of self, Putting ones self, and one's needs, above others or above the god within us , leads us far away from the glory of god within us.. God already provides, here on earth, the natural consequences of the lifestyles we choose. There is no need for a theoretical after life to illustrate this. We can see the effects/consequences of the two sorts of life, in people on earth, here and now.

To disobey gods laws, or the laws of man which are in accord with god's will is to disobey god, but it is not essential in god's eyes to obey the laws of man, where they directly contravene gods will However, god shows us that there are penalties to be incurred from breaking either form of law, and lets us decide which penalties we wish to incur. Man's, or those of natural consequence. (god)

By the way, I appreciate a nice piece of "tongue in cheek" writing, with best of them.

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Mr Walker

What about those like me, who don't believe in good and evil?

Good, is constructive, affirming action, which increases potential. Bad is destructive, negative action which decreases the potential of a individual or society. It is not a matter of believing in them. They exist. Since humans first recognised the difference between behaviours leading to positive and negative outcomes, and realised we are capable of informed choice, we actually " constructed" the very real outcomes of good and evil, along with those names for them. Every time you knowingly, by action or inaction, allow harm to come to another you are doing evil. Every time you raise the potential of another being, or help them, you are doing good. Sometimes you have to weigh comparative good and harm .

For example to abort an unborn child is evil. But to allow an adult woman to come to harm is also evil The pre-existing and established right of an adult woman has some priority over the rights of an unborn child , but not absolute or unilateral priority; unless you accept that no human being has an innate right to life as such. In that case the woman also has less rights.

Because we do not know who will become a Hitler or a mother Teresa, we have to act on inbuilt philosophical values and ethics. We help all those we can. because we recognise that we can. They are responsible for their future actions, not us.

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spacecowboy342

Good, is constructive, affirming action, which increases potential. Bad is destructive, negative action which decreases the potential of a individual or society. It is not a matter of believing in them. They exist. Since humans first recognised the difference between behaviours leading to positive and negative outcomes, and realised we are capable of informed choice, we actually " constructed" the very real outcomes of good and evil, along with those names for them. Every time you knowingly, by action or inaction, allow harm to come to another you are doing evil. Every time you raise the potential of another being, or help them, you are doing good. Sometimes you have to weigh comparative good and harm .

For example to abort an unborn child is evil. But to allow an adult woman to come to harm is also evil The pre-existing and established right of an adult woman has some priority over the rights of an unborn child , but not absolute or unilateral priority; unless you accept that no human being has an innate right to life as such. In that case the woman also has less rights.

Because we do not know who will become a Hitler or a mother Teresa, we have to act on inbuilt philosophical values and ethics. We help all those we can. because we recognise that we can. They are responsible for their future actions, not us.

I don't believe in good and evil in any absolute sense. I do think some things are constructive and others destructive, but that's a different thing

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Mr Walker

I don't believe in good and evil in any absolute sense. I do think some things are constructive and others destructive, but that's a different thing

Not really. They are the same concepts and realities, but just different labels. Evil is an act of conscious choice, where a person knows or intends the act will be destructive. Good is an act of choice where the person knows or intends the act will be constructive. It is our capacity for informed intent which allows us to know the difference between, and choose to do, both/either good and evil.

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Paranoid Android

Not really. They are the same concepts and realities, but just different labels. Evil is an act of conscious choice, where a person knows or intends the act will be destructive. Good is an act of choice where the person knows or intends the act will be constructive. It is our capacity for informed intent which allows us to know the difference between, and choose to do, both/either good and evil.

What if "God" (take your pick) says "x action is evil", but in modern society it is not seen as such? Who wins out? God of the belief you reference, or God of the personal individual choice?

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spacecowboy342

Not really. They are the same concepts and realities, but just different labels. Evil is an act of conscious choice, where a person knows or intends the act will be destructive. Good is an act of choice where the person knows or intends the act will be constructive. It is our capacity for informed intent which allows us to know the difference between, and choose to do, both/either good and evil.

There are things that might be considered good or evil by societies or individuals but no absolute good or evil

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Anthony North

As I see it, good and evil is an early political tool. In the east the two opposing forces find balance. In the west, good is whatever is predominant in society, and 'evil' is not, thus causing conflict and the ability to marginalise what a hierarchy disagrees with.

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Mr Walker

What if "God" (take your pick) says "x action is evil", but in modern society it is not seen as such? Who wins out? God of the belief you reference, or God of the personal individual choice?

I've never seen that happen. Every law and instruction in the bible was to increase good and reduce harm. But it reflected the understandings and realities of the time. If god had said, eliminate slavery, then society would have collapsed.If god had not said marry your brother's widow then that woman would have not had anyone to support her or care for her. Biblical laws are social laws designed to order and protect society. As society changes the laws needed to order protect and assist society also change God says abortion is evil because all human life is sacred. As an atheist I already knew that principle, but in secular humanist terms, yet our society allows abortion on demand. Thus gods law loses out but at detriment to individual people and to society. Once people of any faith realise the intent and purpose of their spiritual books and teachings, then they can apply them using that intent even in the most modern society.

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Mr Walker

There are things that might be considered good or evil by societies or individuals but no absolute good or evil

Yes there is. Absolute evil is an act which does harm, reduces human potential, or is destructive to life including the ecosystem and is undertaken KNOWING it will have these outcomes and that we have other realistic choices .. So today using caol to generate electricity is not an absolute evil but should be avoided but building a power station burning coal which kills 50000 humans a year when you know it will do so IS evil

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spacecowboy342

Yes there is. Absolute evil is an act which does harm, reduces human potential, or is destructive to life including the ecosystem and is undertaken KNOWING it will have these outcomes and that we have other realistic choices .. So today using caol to generate electricity is not an absolute evil but should be avoided but building a power station burning coal which kills 50000 humans a year when you know it will do so IS evil

That might be considered anti-social but not evil

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aquatus1

There is pretty much only one aspect to "Evil" that stands as a global universal.

When a person loses empathy for the life of other people, to the point of not even seeing them as human, it is pretty much regarded as an evil thing. War makes people do evil things. Serial killers, as opposed to mass murderers, are often described as evil. Any dictator who indulges in genocide is considered evil. Evil isn't an all or nothing thing. It depends on the degree that you lose empathy for other humans.

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spacecowboy342

There is a difference between sick and twisted as opposed to evil

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Mr Walker

That might be considered anti-social but not evil

it is a fallacy, and quite a dangerous one, to believe that there is no such thing as evil or absolute evil. Only humans are capable of imagining /visualising, intending and performing such acts, and it is only because of us that such evil exists (on the other hand it is only because of us that goodness and absolute goodness can and does exist, also) We know what is right and wrong/destructive or creative harmful or helpful etc. and choosing wrong is evil. How evil depends on how serious we know the consequences of an act will be.

One doesn't need empathy compassion etc. to know right and wrong, evil and good. It only requires the basic human ability to understand consequences over time, and the knowledge that every act we choose, has a consequence based on the nature of that act..

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