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danielost

why do non-believers always

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Davros of Skaro

It is my understaning that gold does not corrupt. Although I wouldn't use it on ny working parts of a chariot either. Also we are finding other things in the ocean still intact, such as a viking ship.

Ancient ships that are found with intactness is do to waters with low oxygen,low light,and immediate silting over.Ron Wyatt vids show

high light,high oxygen enviroment,and these supposed artifacts sticking out of the sea floor.Watch a video on how the "Atocha' was found by Mel Fisher,and use your head.

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Davros of Skaro

I'm not here to defend Mr. Wyatt, and I know that he's a controversial figure, but the other sides of the Moses story have to be presented. Like it or not, his MFG machine found those "artifacts," and it's up to the individual to believe or not. I, on the other hand, don't need his proof to believe that Moses' real. I saw Jesus Christ, and He saved me from the Void; therefore, the weight of His word (that Moses wrote about Him) is worth more than gold...and even diamond for that matter. I, however, am not telling people what to choose. Everyone has to find their answers. Seeing Jesus gave me the necessary map to move forward. After all, I'm not in Heaven, yet.

Peace.

If MFG machines worked I would have bought one years ago.

Good for you that you saw Jesus.There is no evidence for Abraham,Moses,and do not get me started on Jesus.The mind is a fallable mechanism,and personal testimony is not proof otherwise court cases would be alot shorter.

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danielost

Personal testimony is all that gets presented in a court case unless there are photos. That is why zimmerman got off. He had photos of his injuries and a beliievable personal testimony.

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danielost

Ancient ships that are found with intactness is do to waters with low oxygen,low light,and immediate silting over.Ron Wyatt vids show

high light,high oxygen enviroment,and these supposed artifacts sticking out of the sea floor.Watch a video on how the "Atocha' was found by Mel Fisher,and use your head.

We are talking about a part of the red sea that has little to no inflow of fresh water. Also I note you skipped the gold comment I gave.

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Paranoid Android

Then Google each of these Mythos,and tell us what you think.

Inanna and the Huluppu tree

Enki and the Making of Man

Enki the confuser of languages

Enki and the Deluge

Rape of Persephone

Keep in mind that not only does the Bible warns against Satan's deception,but God himself will put a strong delusion to the nonbeliever (There is very good reason in my opinion why it says this).

My thoughts? I think that this strengthens my opinion on why Genesis chapters 1-11 were written. A year or so back I composed this post (link) to explain my understanding of the pre-Abrahamic section of Genesis. You may find the whole thing of interest, but Reason 3 is of direct significance to your post.

Genesis 1-11 is not, in my researched opinion, intended as an historical account of what happened. Instead it is a theological discourse on God and humanity, written with the intent of painting a picture of mankind hopelessly lost, and paving the way for Abraham as the path to redemption. And in order to set up God as totally different to other gods these stories show God acting with only the power of his voice. In my post I used the example of Marduk and Tiamat, how their cosmic battle created the heavens and the earth, while God simply said "let there be an expanse between the waters of the sky and ground". In the stories you provided very similar things are happening. A stubborn serpent took up residence in a tree, so Gilgamesh buckles his armour and physically confronts the foe. God simply says "cursed are you, begone" and that's the end of it.

Take a quick read through the post I linked, let me know your thoughts. All the best,

As an aside, what parallel is the Rape of Persephone supposed to hold in the Bible? I couldn't connect the dots on this one.

Edited by Paranoid Android
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Frank Merton

Personal testimony is all that gets presented in a court case unless there are photos. That is why zimmerman got off. He had photos of his injuries and a beliievable personal testimony.

I think personal testimony is less dependable than lie-detectors administered by trained and disinterested testers. Frankly I like it where anything is admissible and the jury (or judge or tribunal) is given instructions or training. Rules of evidence seems to have evolved into lawyer's tricks.
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Davros of Skaro

Personal testimony is all that gets presented in a court case unless there are photos. That is why zimmerman got off. He had photos of his injuries and a beliievable personal testimony.

I saw Ronald McDonald mount a rainbow colored Unicorn,and fly up in the sky only to vanish behind a cloud.

That's my personal testimony now prove me wrong.

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Davros of Skaro

We are talking about a part of the red sea that has little to no inflow of fresh water. Also I note you skipped the gold comment I gave.

If there is life in the Red Sea then there is oxygen.Your Gold comment is meaningless,and you are the one skipping my question to you about historical evidence for Moses outside the Bible.I highly doubt Ron Wyatt has photographed real artifacts,and if they were then it still does not prove Moses,because it could have been a military ship that dumped debri before sinking somewhere else.

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Davros of Skaro

Your opinion is just an evolution of thought to certain sects of the faithfull in light of knowledge of the sciences while still retaining faith.You are not that far away to see the obvious,and that is the OT is a rewrite of old mythos for a people finding there own identity.Believe it or not there are small groups of people that still believe in Norse Gods,or Zeus,and if the OT was made more ridiculous then believers would be in the same minority.

The Rape of Persephone is not as old as the other mythos I mentioned,but it's Archeologicaly evidenced closer to the Bible's known origins.It has a forbidden fruit that was tricked into being eaten,and it has supernatural beings that find a women beautifull which one of them seeks to mate with her.

(Wiki base reference only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Persephone

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Gromdor

Non-belief is not unique to atheists, every religion/belief disbelieves others and considers their miracles to be tricks. I know many evangelicals for instance that think that the Mormon tablets or Muhammad talking to Gabriel were all tricks. So to all other religions Danie, you would be considered a non-believer.

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Br Cornelius

I don't believe in either the muslim god or the christian god. Nor do I believe in quantum mechanics.

I'm a retired engineer of electrical/electronics systems. What is in front of me, on my bench, is what is real, and it doesn't matter a damned bit if you're a christian, muslim, or particle physicist, if your theory doesn't coincide with what I have there on the bench, your theory is of no worth. In other words, you can preach at me, try to convert me, or hurl every equation in the world at me, but if what you say doesn't agree with the reality, you lose.

You can tell me god controls everything, and if I have faith, and pray, then all will be well. That hasn't been my experience; what I have came from hard work, a lot of it.

If you're Einstein and you tell me space is bent, the vacuum really is vacuum, the universe is finite, and mass goes to infinity at lightspeed, I'll just agree with the astronomer and tell you you're full of crap.

If you're Feynmann and you tell me that there are charge carrying virtual photons that pop into and out of existence, I'll tell you you need to smoke something else (and believe it or not, that is exactly what I said to Feynmann).

My personal opinion of organized religion is that it is nothing more or less than a crowd control mechanism. Do I believe in the realm of spirit? Yes, I do: I am a firm believer in the Spirit That Moves In All Things, but I also believe that spirit doesn't give much of a rat's ass what we do here, who we are, or what we think.

But if one is a believer in christianity or islam or whatever, you must believe you are in hell, because this world certainly fits the description.

I have to disagree with this. No experiment has ever disproved quantum physics and its principles allow for the functioning of the piece of engineering which you used to type the comments you made. Quantum physics is predictive of real world events and functionally useful. You should not place it into the same class as God which has no0ne of these qualities.

Br Cornelius

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Paranoid Android

Your opinion is just an evolution of thought to certain sects of the faithfull in light of knowledge of the sciences while still retaining faith.You are not that far away to see the obvious,and that is the OT is a rewrite of old mythos for a people finding there own identity.Believe it or not there are small groups of people that still believe in Norse Gods,or Zeus,and if the OT was made more ridiculous then believers would be in the same minority.

But you have to admit I didn't say it was a trick of Satan, just a theological discourse on the nature of God. That's only the first 11 chapters of Genesis, though. Once we hit Abraham in chapter 12 the writing changes style to an historical narrative. I can't argue Abraham is drawn from earlier myth, nor can I with, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, or any other story in Genesis. It deals only with the oral tradition of the pre-Hebrew people.
The Rape of Persephone is not as old as the other mythos I mentioned,but it's Archeologicaly evidenced closer to the Bible's known origins.It has a forbidden fruit that was tricked into being eaten,and it has supernatural beings that find a women beautifull which one of them seeks to mate with her.

(Wiki base reference only)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_of_Persephone

Ah, it's a forbidden fruit idea. Don't you think it's just a tad of a stretch to link it with the Eden narrative? Edited by Paranoid Android

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Davros of Skaro

But you have to admit I didn't say it was a trick of Satan, just a theological discourse on the nature of God. That's only the first 11 chapters of Genesis, though. Once we hit Abraham in chapter 12 the writing changes style to an historical narrative. I can't argue Abraham is drawn from earlier myth, nor can I with, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, or any other story in Genesis. It deals only with the oral tradition of the pre-Hebrew people.

Ah, it's a forbidden fruit idea. Don't you think it's just a tad of a stretch to link it with the Eden narrative?

Congrats on not using Satan.Bravo on your Apologetics that meets science halfway.

Demeter is an Earth Goddess of the harvest.During her search of the Missing Persephone the Plants wither,and die.Before Demeter rescues Persephone she is tricked by Hades into eating a Pomegranate seed which bounds her to the Underworld for part of the season.This mythology explains the seasons.

Eve is tricked into eating an unspecified yet forbidden fruit which in turn banishes her from a garden of plenty to a land that is laborous to bare fruit.

Here is a wall relief of Demeter with two sheafs of wheat (harvest),and two snakes (symbols of renewel from shedding of skin).

post-142153-0-64024400-1380194497_thumb.

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Frank Merton

I gotta agree the similarities are not sufficient to demonstrate a link.

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Davros of Skaro

I gotta agree the similarities are not sufficient to demonstrate a link.

How about this then?

http://inanna.thunderwolfsrealm.com/huluppu.html

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Paranoid Android

Congrats on not using Satan.Bravo on your Apologetics that meets science halfway.

Why thank you very much ;)

Demeter is an Earth Goddess of the harvest.During her search of the Missing Persephone the Plants wither,and die.Before Demeter rescues Persephone she is tricked by Hades into eating a Pomegranate seed which bounds her to the Underworld for part of the season.This mythology explains the seasons.

Eve is tricked into eating an unspecified yet forbidden fruit which in turn banishes her from a garden of plenty to a land that is laborous to bare fruit.

Here is a wall relief of Demeter with two sheafs of wheat (harvest),and two snakes (symbols of renewel from shedding of skin).

I still think it a fairly long straw to draw. But even if it isn't it's not a massive deal to me since I don't see Genesis 1-11 as historical/scientific fact but instead theological data. If you begin to show post-Abraham examples (eg, Joseph's rise to fame in Egypt, after being sold into slavery by his brothers) of similarities in myth, then we can begin anew.

Needless to say, I'm quite comfortable in what I believe and how I came to that belief. Best wishes,

Edited by Paranoid Android

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Davros of Skaro

Why thank you very much ;)

I still think it a fairly long straw to draw. But even if it isn't it's not a massive deal to me since I don't see Genesis 1-11 as historical/scientific fact but instead theological data. If you begin to show post-Abraham examples (eg, Joseph's rise to fame in Egypt, after being sold into slavery by his brothers) of similarities in myth, then we can begin anew.

Needless to say, I'm quite comfortable in what I believe and how I came to that belief. Best wishes,

y/w

It makes sense to me by following the evidence,and not what tradition says.

There are several # 7's mentioned in the story of Joseph,and that number is mystical.

Leviticus 24:23

Then Moses spoke to the Israelites,they took the blasphemer outside camp,and stoned him.The Israelites did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Best wishes.

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Marcion Meets E. Sibyl

If MFG machines worked I would have bought one years ago.

Good for you that you saw Jesus.There is no evidence for Abraham,Moses,and do not get me started on Jesus.The mind is a fallable mechanism,and personal testimony is not proof otherwise court cases would be alot shorter.

Just like Ron Wyatt, you have your own bias regarding MFG. Apparently, it worked for him, and he's still getting publicity. MFG is but one tool. He also used pulse induction, ferromagnetic, other gadgets...and it's not that I'm defending him. Like I said, I don't need his proof to believe in Moses.

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/faq.htm

No one is on trial here, and "mind" has nothing to do with the afterlife situation -- "awareness" is closer to describe that particular cognition(?). You'll find that out one day, unless you had gone through a Lazarus syndrome event and not tell us about it.

Peace.

Edited by No-thingBornPassion

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Mr. Miyagi

Daniel, I can't speak for all Atheists and if you remember, I consider myself a Buddhist atheist, or Dharma practitioner, whatever. The label isn't important. I think you have a misunderstanding here, probably intentional just as with your misunderstanding of evolution, of an Atheist view point on not just a Christian god, but any god. Atheists do not believe or disbelieve in god. There is nothing to believe or disbelieve in. Do you understand? Believe in what? What is god? Not what god did, or can do, or intends to do or how god feels, etc... according to your book. What is god? Now, an atheist may not believe in different religious texts, including the bible, but again... that is not god, that's a book. If a bear takes a dump in my backyard, I can go and find the bear and show the bear to everyone. The bear is real, right there for all to see. So, now we can discuss whether or not you believe the bear took a crap in my backyard. Everybody knows what a bear is. Similarly the Bible is the word of god, but what is god? Show God to the world and Atheists will then be willing to discuss whether or not they believe in the stories in your books. It's just a different world view that usually doesn't warrant a second thought. When atheists get upset with believer it's usually got something to do with an archaic social belief that believers have faith in that they are seeking to have imposed upon modern society via legistlation among other things.

Hope I helped.

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Ogbin

Why do non-believers always? This is a good question. This is why in my opinion. (insert picture of salt shaker :tu:)

1 Corinthians 1:18 "For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish, foolisness; but unto us which are saved, it is the power of God." Because... Proverbs 14:9 "Fools mock at sin: but among the righteous there is favor."

Proverbs 1:20-23 "Wisdom crieth without; she uttereth her voice in the streets: 'she crieth in the chief place of concourse, in the openings of the gates: in the city she uttereth her words, saying, How long, ye simple ones, will ye love simplicity? and the scorners delight in their scorning, and fools hate knowledge? Turn you at my reproof: behold, I will pour out my spirit unto you, I will make known my words unto you."

edit: I am not Mormon, just a believer in Christ.

Edited by Ogbin

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Davros of Skaro

Just like Ron Wyatt, you have your own bias regarding MFG. Apparently, it worked for him, and he's still getting publicity. MFG is but one tool. He also used pulse induction, ferromagnetic, other gadgets...and it's not that I'm defending him. Like I said, I don't need his proof to believe in Moses. [/b][/size]

http://www.arkdiscovery.com/faq.htm

No one is on trial here, and "mind" has nothing to do with the afterlife situation -- "awareness" is closer to describe that particular cognition(?). You'll find that out one day, unless you had gone through a Lazarus syndrome event and not tell us about it.

Peace.

"The analysis of Christ's blood shows that he was born of a virgin." Ron Wyatt

http://www.rapturere.../Ron_Wyatt.html

I have been a treasure hunter as a hobby for 2 decades,and if a LRL (long range locator) like a MFD worked?I would have bought one myself.

An afterlife does not make the God of Abraham the default position for an afterlife,and I doubt the other manmade beliefs would

be it either.The Near Death Experience has been clearly documented as being based on one's culture.For example if one was taught that a Cat on a Unicycle greated you in death then even though one may not believe it in life the NDE will reflect what they were told.........MEW!

post-142153-0-76994500-1380235490_thumb.

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danielost

We can do a virgin birth today. So why couldn't god or a superier intellegence be capable of doing it two thousand years ago. No magic wand needed.

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Davros of Skaro

You still do not get it.What is your proof of the God of Abraham?A super being can hypothetically do anything,but your character

YHWH is only in the Bible which is not evidence to the critical thinker.The mind creates thought,and we are born not believing in God.

Did you ever see South Park Joseph Smith?

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ambelamba

Won't work on him, davros...

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Davros of Skaro

Won't work on him, davros...

I know,but there are the rare few that may stumble across this,and I put the information out for them.

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