Some Turkish women 'back beating'

[wunarmdscissor]

many women actually wear the trousers in the muslim world,

well good for you, lol rite suffragettes out there you can pack away your placards lol.

[Guest Lottie]

People such as yourself are inciting hatred towards the middle east, the arab world, and muslims in general, criticising a culture you know very little about, saying that it is a cultural thing, well i ask you how many times you have visited the middle east, how many middle eastern people do you know to tell you the 'stuff' that you are coming out with, because i bet the answer is zero.

Well you bet wrong then! I know several people who have lived in the middle east and know five people who come from the middle east. Oh yes they all have their stories to tell about how a woman is undermined and degraded and treated nothing more then an animal. I was not going to bring this up because its personal but I will anyway because hell why should this be kept silent!!

I also have a very close friend who was beaten, raped, prostituted and dosed up on heroin by her 'Arab' husband in the middle east. Yes this is a way of life that some out there feel is right and correct! Yes this happened regulalry to other women she knew but they kept silent! So please don't tell me again that I do not know of what the culture can be like out there!

little do you know about the culture, otherwise you wouldnt be so interested by it.

See above...also I am interested in this because I do not turn a blind eye and pretend everything is hunky dory when it blatantly isn't!

p.s Thanks Talon, at least there is someone on this thread with some sense!

Edited October 24, 2004 by Lottie

[Guest Lottie]

the west is being taught to hate and fear muslims and they are doing a fine job of it too.

And who is teaching the west this??? Huh? It can only be a minority of Muslims themselves. Gosh where have you been?

Edited October 24, 2004 by Lottie

[zephyr]

You see Lottie, you are talking about THE culture of the ME, while such a thing does not exist in reality and is only a simplification of a complex entity The cultures of the ME are very varied and although some cultures might have somethings in common, their differences are much greater than their similarities An Iranian has very little in common with an Arab. Even in their Islam they have big differences. We dont speak the same language, we dont have the same racial roots, women have a differnt status here and etc! There are many different cultures within one country as well. In Iran for example; we have the Kurds, the Turks, the Lors, The Fars, the Arabs, the Turkmans, the Balouch, the Armenians and others! So, when I see someone generalizing about the ME culture and then drawing far fetched conclusions based on that generalization, I can not help thinking that their knowledge of the region is extremely limited and stereotyped! It is very encouraging that more and more people are getting interested to learn about other cultures and it is very vital to do so, only I wish that the sources of information would go beyond the evening news on tv and the local paper!

[alis]

And who is teaching the west this??? Huh? It can only be a minority of Muslims themselves. Gosh where have you been?

where have i been???? the middle east and england, to name but a few places love and teaching the west this, a minority of muslims, yes, with the help of governments and media of course.

I know several people who have lived in the middle east and know five people who come from the middle east.

whoopee do to you!!! i know families and friends from the region, ive known all my life.

nonsense. Why is it whenever someone mentions a criticism of someone elses domestic or foriegn suddenly it makes them anti-Semitic or anti-Arab.

the point is talon, i am not trying to incite hatred about the west. did i start a topic about how nurses in care homes in britain have been filmed abusing elderly people? did i start any topic about anti western issues????dont you think the last years of a person's life are just as important as the years that go before it???? i dont hear any of you mention how its also a cultural thing in the middle east to look after the elderly in your own home.

More anti-western generalisation. It might surprise you, but I know only two families were the grandparents are still alive, and both of those families have the grandparents living with them.

well whoopee do to you too talon for knowing two families in britain where they look after their elders. have you looked in the job section recently talon cos im looking for a part time job to go with my studies, and there are plenty of jobs working for nursing homes in my area. i guess its just the area that i live in that refuses to take care of the very people who bring them into this world, resorting in the elderly whithering away in the care of strangers. and the anti western generalisation thing, i hope was a joke.

Utter nonsense, its you who seems to have such negative views of us. If we're so evil and racist why even interact with us?

talon cant you see that you slag off my fathers culture, and half mine, not even looking at the problems your own culture has. leah betts ring any bells to you?? its easy to slag off someone else's culture, i recognise the problems in the middle east through my mother's eyes but at the same time i see the problems in the west through my father's eyes.

[CatAstrofix]

did i start a topic about how nurses in care homes in britain have been filmed abusing elderly people? did i start any topic about anti western issues????

Maybe you should. But do you really think it is wrong to critisize the human right issues, such as women's position in Turkey? I personally don't know as much about the specific culture as I'd like, but some things just are wrong, no matter in which culture they happen. Pointing out that it happens everywhere is a good thing, but practically accuse ppl of racism because of this critic it bit over the issue, isn't it? I'm sure, that you too alis think that getting beaten by your husband or other men relatives is simply wrong, and belive me when I say, that I'm not attacking your inheritance and genetic lines.

I've seen a turkish woman beaten to death on the street, police standing by, as well as the tv-cameras and other viewers. Everyone just watched as that womans life slipped away, including her 5 year old son. Judging that is pretty humaine from my point of view, and yet, I don't judge muslim-culture, cause that's not what it all is about.

[alis]

But do you really think it is wrong to critisize the human right issues, such as women's position in Turkey? I personally don't know as much about the specific culture as I'd like, but some things just are wrong, no matter in which culture they happen.

perhaps im a little sensitive as the west are currently torturing, raping, killing, making homless many people in the region, then are just slagging off the region and calling the people there idiots.

its like the hate for islam in the west isnt enough for some people. if you cant see what i see, and thats countries like france taking away women's rights to wear the veil, anger towards asylum seekers. for example we all agree that there is a problem with the number of asylum seekers in this country, but when our country is going into their country and attacking it from every angle, dont you think the people have a right to take up residence here?????????? unfortunately i often hear about asylum seekers and refugees being attacked here, and in a few cases even killed. when will the double standards that exist, perish???

[zephyr]

That's very thoughtful of you CatAstrofix not to judge Islam by the events in Turkey! It is essential to criticize the bad things anywhere, but when this leads to wrong and/or biased conclusions about religions and cultures, and is used to spread hatred and ignorance about those cultures and religions, then we really have a serious problem as is the case with certain comments on these forums!

[wunarmdscissor]

zephyr the problem is that these stories of women beating, beheading, children being massacred on purpose and many more things are all being carried out on a massive scale by terrorists claiming to be doing it in the name of islam.

now the islamic world protested in their MILLIONS before the war in Iraq, now im sorry but after beslan were the people marching on the streets to try and stop these animals carrying out these attacks in their name, where the people on the streets after the bheadings trying to stop these people carrying it out in tehir name, even after 9/11 where thousands died in an attack comparable to the invasion of iraq was the moslem world up in arms , marching in its millions tryng to stop these people doing this. NO. I do remember a lot of American flags being burned in the ME , not a lot of public support or compassion then eh.

The irish people did it to the IRA after omagh , and look at the IRA now after their own people shopped them they are nothing, useless. the moslem world could do the same.

No matter what your cause the likes of massacring children is unforgivable. The irish people or catholics in ireland realised this and put a stop or major pressure on the IRA but it doesnt seem that the moslem world seems to really care that things likethis are being carried out their name.

[alis]

so basically what you're saying is that you are anti islam???

must remind my self not to send you a christmas card! if you cant see that most muslims dont support this kind of action, then you are an 'idiot' (using idiot because he called middle eastern people idiots).

sack being p/c ali its not racist but yeah the ME are a bunch of idiots wen it comes to women

i suppose where you live the elderly are a different matter, or when the women hit retirement age, thats it, shove them in a home, right? so who's the idiot???

Edited October 25, 2004 by alis

[wunarmdscissor]

lol have you read ANY of my previous posts, if you had then you would know exactly where i stand on everything.

Im not going to argue with you lol.

All i will say is your reaction to my post is typical.

[wunarmdscissor]

lol

so you think retirement homes are cruel, where they have on hand medical support, emergeny alarms to alert ambulances , regulated meals , people who check on them daily.

Or is it just that in the ME because women are treated so badly and made to work so hard al their life, that after all the beatings and fear that they may receive a beating for making the slightest mistake , that they dont reach retirement age , or merely that in most ME cultures women never get the chance to "retire" lol.

[wunarmdscissor]

oh and one question where u on the anti-war marches pre-iraq ?

[alis]

so you think retirement homes are cruel, where they have on hand medical support, emergeny alarms to alert ambulances , regulated meals , people who check on them daily.

well you go and work in one my war driven countryman, and come back and tell me how good they are, i bet you cant wait to go into one yourself.

ME because women are treated so badly and made to work so hard al their life, that after all the beatings and fear that they may receive a beating for making the slightest mistake , that they dont reach retirement age , or merely that in most ME cultures women never get the chance to "retire" lol.

do yourself a favour and crawl under a rock!!!! my greatgrand mother died about 8 years ago, in her 90's, my father's granddad died when he was 106, must be the diet, they dont like frozen foods like Mccains and birdseye over there, plus the stress levels arent so high, but as you seem to prefer to read the propaganda instead of visiting the region, im not surprised you come out with that ****.

oh and one question where u on the anti-war marches pre-iraq ?

unfortunately i was working the day the marches took place in portsmouth!!!! however i got to see the marches, and there were plenty of people, young and old, all opposed to the war, ok!!!!

[wunarmdscissor]

lol then you'll no im against the war wont you...., yi think you'll find you look rather foolish now eh...at least before you go commenting on someone kearn their position first, and not take posts deliberatly out of context.

oh and i take it you went on the anti war marches when NATO declared war on serbia (an ethnically christian country) to defend the moslems who were being persecuted kosovo werent you...

although i dont seem to remember quite as big marches against that war ...i wonder why....

Edited October 25, 2004 by wunarmdscissor

[wunarmdscissor]

lol i find it hilarious that you come on here without the slightest clue of my position on the war then start ranting and raving about right wing propoganda when im one of the most left wing anti war members on the forum lol....

lets just say that im anti-war for more reasons i bet than you are.

Cos im pretty sure the answer to teh last question i asked you was no, probabvly the fact that it wasnt a moslem based nation that was being bombed.

Oh how the goalposts move eh.

Tell me were you still calling tony blair a murderer then.

Edited October 25, 2004 by wunarmdscissor

[Guest Lottie]

EDIT I did reply but cannot be bothered to listen to any more of this twaddle. Edited October 25, 2004 by Lottie

[zephyr]

zephyr the problem is that these stories of women beating, beheading, children being massacred on purpose and many more things are all being carried out on a massive scale by terrorists claiming to be doing it in the name of islam.

now the islamic world protested in their MILLIONS before the war in Iraq, now im sorry but after beslan were the people marching on the streets to try and stop these animals carrying out these attacks in their name, where the people on the streets after the bheadings trying to stop these people carrying it out in tehir name, even after 9/11 where thousands died in an attack comparable to the invasion of iraq was the moslem world up in arms , marching in its millions tryng to stop these people doing this. NO. I do remember a lot of American flags being burned in the ME , not a lot of public support or compassion then eh.

The irish people did it to the IRA after omagh , and look at the IRA now after their own people shopped them they are nothing, useless. the moslem world could do the same.

No matter what your cause the likes of massacring children is unforgivable. The irish people or catholics in ireland realised this and put a stop or major pressure on the IRA but it doesnt seem that the moslem world seems to really care that things likethis are being carried out their name.

324013[/snapback]

Anybody can claim to be a muslim! What counts at the end of the day is the way people behave and their actions! What terrorists do has nothing to do with Islam, even if the terrorists themselves claim otherwise! They are terrorists for god's sake, are you going to believe what they say? Whose job is it in Iraq to control the situation and make a whole population feel safe?

As for protests; as you might know it is not very easy to organize street protests in the ME unless the governments are for those demonstrations. Therefore it should not be concluded too quickly about what the people might or might not be for or against!

I am not sure it is correct to compare the Irish situation with the one in the ME, but I agree that the Muslim world needs reforms as much as the Western world does Was that you calling us idiots in the ME

[wunarmdscissor]

not in the way that alis was refering to lol, i was stating that the attitude towards women in teh ME is idiotic, which was perhaps a poor choice of words , archaic then .

[wunarmdscissor]

BTW if the attitude in the ME towards women isnt that bad tell me, which state do you think would allow a women to rule?

[zephyr]

The attitude towards women is idiotic in a lot of places and not just the ME I think it has to do with us men; we just dont know how to behave ourselves when there are women around

In Pakistan there was Binazeer. In Iran we have women as deputies in the parliament if that counts for anything. Let me think some more ehh... Maybe we should wait for a woman president in the US first before engaging ourselves too much in unknown territories

[Scoobydo]

Of course any violence against a women is wrong in marriage.

I remember watching Oprah many years ago and the stats she produced was that in 25% of violent relationships it was the man exclusively hitting the woman. In 25% it was the woman exclusively hitting the man. In 50% of the cases it was men hitting the women and the women also hitting the men.

Apparently women (in the west) often hit their husband to get him to talk. Men often hit their wives to be left alone. Additionally women, while weaker, tend to have a far higher likelihood of using a weapon when attacking their husbands so the injuries sustained by men are often more severe.

I think it is doing an injustice to men to characterize domestic violence as a thing exclusively done by men to women. According to Oprah’s stats it logically follows that as many as 75% of the women in refuges probably also hit their husbands.

The big difference is that a women can go to a battered woman’s’ refuge and get help and sympathy. Men are usually too ashamed, when they are the victim, to tell anyone.

I don’t think these figures are too hard to believe. If you think about it women can be very violent in the home (as can men of course). But think of your own friends. For every friend I have who had a very violent father who beat them excessively I can think of 3 who had an excessively violent mother.

I sometimes think things have turned too far and now it is men who are getting the short end of the stick in the West.

[Erikl]

I'm sorry, but this article from the BBC is a complete rubbish (surprise surprise...).

I've just returned from Turkey, Antalya, yesterday afternoon.

I've been there for 8 days, lived there, spoke with the local population, ate with Turks, laughed with them, and drove with them.

Everyone knew I was an Israeli, and it only made them happier (Israel and Turkey are close allies). I think this is the only place abroad that being an Israeli gave me more benifits than other nationals (even in the US I didn't get such a warm treatment).

The country is COMPLETELY WESTERN.

No fezes anywhere, headscarfs are a very rare sight (more rare than France 3 years ago, for example).

Beer and Raki (Turkish Ozo - 50% alcohol) are consumed like water.

Young Turkish girls with nothing but bikini entered taxis.

All the restaurants were filled with people all day (even though this is Ramadan month, one of the holliest holidays for Muslims, as Zephyr and alis will verify).

Internet coffeshops around the corner in almost every street.

Huge American-style malls.

Light train that pass through every street.

The only problem I had was that the people there drive like maniacs .

And all that was in Antalya, which is in southern Turkey, a region which considered to be a more religious region in Turkey.

Istanbul, the Black Sea coast, and the Aegean Sea coast are considered more developed and much more secular - but I have no idea how can one go more secular than what I've seen in Antalya.

Turkey is much more developed, both culturally, economically and industrially than most of the new countries that joint the EU last May.

It is a completely secular state - Islam is not the state religion (and Islamic parties banned).

One would argue that the state and church in Turkey are more seperate than Italy or even the UK.

The new Erdogan government that was elected in 2003 is as religious as the German CDU, and that too caused many Turks to fear that Turkey is becomming another Iran (think about the reaction of the German people anytime the CDU got elected).

I suspect that the only main reason for European fear of letting Turkey in is from 70 million muslim Turks - which are very secular, as opposed to Europe's 20 million muslim Berbers and Arabs which are religious. I suspect that letting in the Turks will actually make the other muslims in Europe more moderate.

If you want moderate modern Islam - look at Trukey.

Being that I've been to Poland only a year and a half ago, I can tell you that my opinion is that Turkey is much more ready to join the EU that Poland, and is also much more western than Poland is.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Erikl

[CatAstrofix]

Right... well, I'm happy that we got that cleard . If you say that everything is fine (after all you did spend there 8 days) I'm sure that's a fact.

I'm not anti-Turkish, I do think that they should join EU and I know that it is a resourceful country and cooperation will benefit all, but the humanright issues are a dilemma there. Even their own representatives admid that.

[Erikl]

Sure - I agree there is a human right issue there (in the east at least, near the Iraqi and Iranian border), which is also a great issue of disagreement between Israel and Turkey, and it's Turkey's treatment of it's Kurdish minority.

However, I think as a person who was there, who walked among the people, I think I can give here a testimony of how Turkey is. 8 days might not be enought to know the country very well, but it is enough to know that this BBC article is rubbish, and that most of the views shown here by many people who never been to Turkey are rediculous at best.

Also remember that I do live in a ME country, we do have a large muslim population here, and I do have a similiar religious-oriented society to compare with.

Also, about 300,000 Israelis visit Turkey each year - so we do know this country a bit.

One of my friends that went with us to the trip have been to Turkey before, and he also verified my impressions.

Also I do travel a lot, I'm almost 19 and already visited 7 different countries - some of them for long periods, some of them for more than once.

I also live in a western country myself, so I have a point of reference.

Turkey is as western as a country can be.

It is nothing of what some people make it look like here on this thread.

EDIT: One would add that the Spanish have the Basques, and the Irish have the North Irish problem, which are quite similiar to the Kurdish problem in Turkey.

Also, one should note the Greek oppression of it's minorities, and the de-facto apartheid against Russian minority in Latvia, and the non-recognition of other languages besides French in France.

Edited October 25, 2004 by Erikl