People reject science because...

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Dear Colonel,

In short-No. Thats not point. Point is that when scientists get one conclusion and they oppose to , lets say Monsanto, Dow Chemical, DuPont, Svngenta, Cargill, ADM, Epicvte, Fund Rockefeller, Ford, Gates, they ask them to provide evidence to their claims. They never did. I recently post one news where one scientists ask them to provide. And they never did. That thread is deleted so I will not risk again posting it here.

Or another example. IPCC claim that humanity cause global warming and that there is consensus among scientists. Yet we see that scientists around world disagree with it.

How come that they claim there is consensus but we see huge number of experts claim otherwise? Let me save you from your investigation. Its because of taxes. Which will profit mostly Corps and Wallstreet.

Also look at post 59. I think you skip it.

GMO, imho, is Eugenics legacy. And we should treat it like such. Future generations will describe it that way.

Same families that were in Eugenics they are in GMO. Even it is prooven that cause cancer. And many more.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Ewa Kopacz: "Polish nation is very wise. Poles can tell truth from lies very preciesly. They can also tell whats objective situation and what is just game."

Sorry but I trust Poles more. They saved Europe once. Obviously they need to do that again.

Edited October 11, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[kmt_sesh]

Well if Autism pandemic in USA is caused by vaccines as many scientists believe-look no further.

edit: also search USA experiments with vaccines on net. You will see that they have quite big history of experiments with vaccines.

Once they wanted to criple reproduction of humans. But Chatolic church stop them.

This is the kind of thing that tends to drive me nuts. Years ago it was suspected that vaccines might cause autism, but that idea was tossed into the dustbin years ago. There is simply no evidence for it. I don't know what whack-job, conspiracy websites have to say about this, but websites are not where I get my information. It certainly was not where I got my emergency medical training years ago.

You seem to have a healthy dislike of the USA, Vooodoo. It's a boogyman for you. But you're seeing evil shadows where none exist. Is my country perfect? Hell, no. Nevertheless, it remains a world leader in scientific and medical research. Whack-job, conspiracy websites won't change this.

I suppose I sound a bit frustrated right now, and I admit I am. I probably lost it when I saw the post intimating that vaccines kill more people than they help. While occasional severe allergic reactions do occur, this is a gross and obvious distortion of the facts.

For my own sanity I will be ducking out of this discussion, although I will continue to monitor it from the background. LOL It's a good lesson to me to continue to avoid these nutty conspiracy discussions.

[Rlyeh]

Not just kill. Cripple. Made them sterile. Made them ill.

But you just told us diseases that do that aren't harmful.

And which vaccines specifically do this?

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Dear Kmt,

I see you healthy skip post which I adressed to you.

I dont have problems with USA. I adore USA. It is ,beside Germany, my country biggest ally.

What I dont like is corruption, Eugenics. As you see in my earlier post, there is big time problem in vaccination. No matter how you kept silence about it. And call it nuts theory.

I dont think that I must show to anyone my love to USA. Nevertheless I will explain why I love USA. Before I do that I will stressed out that I like their dominance over globe then any other country. Its better then that India rule globe. Anyway since Im acussed allow me to defend.

USA is beast of country. Its triumph of freedom and freemarket.It isnt just "American" state. Its Scotish, Brittish, Irish, Polish, Italian, Natives, Jewish, African, Spanish state in some sense. Everyone goes there for oportunities, money but for sense of freedom.

Ethnicly diveded society in the end broke up. Bosnia is one example. But USA show different traits.

American optimism is amazing.

American stance: "We will bring light to the darkness." is good thing. They act like world police. Why? For own interests but also many times for interests of others countries who cant defend themselves. Many time we saw in history how when two fights third take all cookies.

War between Rome/Byzant and Persia won Arabs. War against Europe and Arabs won Mongols. Now is China one who take all cookies?

But if isnt USA took role of Police who would end slaughter in Rwanda. UN didnt solve problem US did.

Same in Bosnia. Europe didnt solve problem US did. Atleast stop killing for moment with Dayton agreement and so far so good.

USA rescued old world in ww2. French help them before. But USA also seek their own interests in WW2. They show that when war ended.

They stoped helping UK while they still support China. Anyway Hitler declares war on USA. Japan bombed USA.

Slavery was black part of USA history and genocide of natives. Vietnam and Guatemala. Empiricism influenced politic of USA. Its country of greed and lobbysts. Problems with education system,health care,black people, slave labour in California, Mexicans working behind barbed wire. In March 2013, the unemployment was 11.7 million people.

Land of advertisng on television during elections, land of Brands-Coca Cola,Levis, McDonalds, Baseball, American football, NBA, Hockey, Hollywood, Dollar, Dinseyland, Rock n Roll,Las Vegas in Nevada, Miami, New York and Time square.

Statue of liberty 1886, was a gift to the United States from the people of France.

Then Niagara falls, Los Angeles Hollywood sign, Chicago, apple pie, bisons,bald eagle,drones, Aircraft carriers, phrase on the Seal of the United States E pluribus unum-One from many,like Mongols.

Four corner deserts,Grand canyon Arizona, Wyoming Yellow stone, Florida Everglades and flamingo.

Mount Rushmore National Memorial is a sculpture carved into the granite face of Mount Rushmore near Keystone, South Dakota (George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Roosvelt, Abraham Lincoln)

Trading with Canada, Germany, Japan, China, Mexico. Natural resources, a well-developed infrastructure, and high productivity.

Montana decline.Texas oil.Square Colorado,Indianapolis 500 race,Hawaii, Alaska,Louisiana Mississippi Cypress Tree Spanish moss,Mississippi steamship , Agriculture is strong.

Its domination of money. Democratic country with rough democracy with many corruption.Thats part I hate.

Amercian novelist never been able to sum America like Tolstoy did in Russia. It was left to jouranlism because its too diverse. Its investigating, critical and mockery journalism.

11% of black people increasing number of Mexicans. Minority problems.

You came from another country and you gain status of minority. You stay apart and you dont melt. Sadly.

Todays US is model for political libertism and freedom.

US not EU runs world for protecting freedom with all their faults and greatness. Greatest generation was after ww2. Originally 13 countries who all 13 are amazing.

Since I know you like Egypt-when I was in Egypt I met Copt. He told me clearly: "Without USA we wouldnt exist at all. They protect us from extremists in Egypt."

During our indenpendnce war, USA, not EU, not China, not Russia, not India, not Brazil, not Japan allow us to act. Because nothing happens without big powers in the world. USA didnt use military force against our enemy but gave as diplomatic support. Which was all we need. To be precise Clinton administration.

And to show how USA was in that time I will just say this. They do that against their allies UK, France. Who with Norway and Holland support our enemies. Also Russia.

So you can cleary see that without Germany USA is our biggest ally.

And I do agree about science and USA so I will not adressed that in any sentence.

So I dont hate USA. I love USA.

But my view is that even your politicians have problem with some Wallstreet, Oil, Pharma, GMO, War industry corparations.

Many things in USA are not right. But as any empire before they have good and bad things. Mostly good prevail so far.

But my adress to corruption in science in USA doesnt go to USA. It goes to people who are corrupted. And even diabolical.

And we all know their names. Whats wrong with that? Many USA posters here post against it.

Is what you saying that because Monsanto and similar is USA corp we should go blind and ignore what they are doing?

Edited October 12, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Now Kmt on OP.

Why people dont trust science? Its not because religions. Its not because ignorance. Its because politic and corruption behind it.

If you are for science-you should too fight against Corps and trust that use science as tool for their own success. Not your or yours country.

No matter of their nationality. Whats evil and wrong we should fight against it. Thats my stance. And many Americans even congressman trough history in your country do and done that.

Whats bad-its bad. And corruption in science is bad.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[Space Commander Travis]

Dear Kmt,

During our indenpendnce war, USA, not EU, not China, not Russia, not India, not Brazil, not Japan allow us to act. Because nothing happens without big powers in the world. USA didnt use military force against our enemy but gave as diplomatic support. Which was all we need. To be precise Clinton administration.

And to show how USA was in that time I will just say this. They do that against their allies UK, France. Who with Norway and Holland support our enemies. Also Russia.

it's probably going off topic, but pardon?

[MonkeyLove]

They reject science because it gets in the way of "business as usual."

Put simply, much of manufacturing and food production requires fossil fuel use, and businesses and their government partners want continuous economic growth, which is dependent on more profits, in turn requiring more sales of goods and services.

That's why, not surprisingly, the mainstream media that encourages people to reject science or water down predicaments (e.g., there's no global warming, but in case there is, it's natural, and in case we need to deal with it, we can use "technology," just as long as businesses continue to run smoothly) are also controlled by the same mega-corporations. Government support this propaganda in exchange for more tax revenues from increased sales of goods and services.

In essense, denialism is the norm and the default, and applies not only to global warming but also to environmental damage and even peak oil. Businesses want their profits, governments their tax revenues, and people their middle class lifestyle.

[Frank Merton]

Most people are fine with science. In fact I know of no one who has any problem with it, but of course I don't live in the American Bible Belt. The few on this board who have problems with science seem to only object to it when it hits at their pet notions. That is one thing science seems to not have much truck with -- pet notions.

[Mikko-kun]

It's not that we're against science when it comes to what you see as our pet notions, it's not. It's that we have our own views about how science ought to be done there. You say world is just physical, I say it's something more, for example. You say tomato, I say tomaatti.

If you honestly think we're wrong with what you call our pet notions, and sincerely would like us to reconsider, just show that what we think is the case might be something different. Give an alternative. Pretending you or a scientific community could take the decision of what we believe in away from us, is futile. I dont see people saying it with words, but most times you can read it between the lines in posts here. "you must believe this because this or that". No we dont. Even if you become a bloody fool about it, you can still keep insisting you're right, I think there's cases of this kinda behavior in most sides here. I've been guilty of that too in my life, more than once. But nothing wrong with that. Beliefs dont destroy people, acting on the strongly yet blindly and inconsiderately does. You need to be ready to pull back if it's not a good fight, and say you were wrong. Else you'll just become a self-serving fanatic.

So the way I see it, the best thing to do is to give an alternative to where people take the basis for their so-called pet notions from. If I think it's because of christmas lights that we have more modern diseases like AIDS and diabetes, you can just convince me by showing that "how about you look a bit into how much sugar and other less-healthy-in-big-dozes foods diabetics tend to eat before they get diabetes-2? there's really some consistency there, and that no single sexually inactive people get AIDS, some consistency too. Just ask anyone who has these diseases if they lived like that, if you dont buy my stuff." That instead of "scientific study shows this and that and I dont really understand it but it's okay because it's a scientific study and done properly." If you can't put it to your own words, you dont understand it that well (or the words genuinely fail you, but how often is that the case really?), and it will show. You might not see it, but those on the other side of the river do because they've a more critical eye if you question what you call their pet theory. Just like you have a critical eye when they question what you think is the status quo.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Mikko kun,

Im against omniscience scientists who do experiments with stance "what could possibly go wrong", and when people point to them what went wrong they ignore and surpressed it. Why? I cant understand.

[Frank Merton]

There aren't any alternatives to science.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

There aren't any alternatives to science.

True. And science is greatest tool we have. But again we show that our moral views can disrupt, corrupt, poision and infest science. I guess its something in human nature that we tend to twist good things. We as humanity in our time face great corruption in science, And we have duty to banish it from science. There is no place for surpression in science. Neither for using it against humanity for own selfish reasons.

[Frank Merton]

You know in my life I've met a lot of people I would assess as corrupt, and I think it is a personality trait. The dumb and violent ones end up in jail; those more sophisticated become lawyers and politicians and businessmen, but not doctors and engineers and scientists and teachers.

That is not to say that lawyers and politicians and businessmen are always or even usually corrupt. A lot depends on the details of how the society is constructed.

[Emma_Acid]

Well if Autism pandemic in USA is caused by vaccines as many scientists believe-look no further.

edit: also search USA experiments with vaccines on net. You will see that they have quite big history of experiments with vaccines.

Once they wanted to criple reproduction of humans. But Chatolic church stop them.

That's not an answer. "If so and so causes this, and look no further". Vaccines don't cause autism. There has never been a link.

Mikko kun,

Im against omniscience scientists who do experiments with stance "what could possibly go wrong", and when people point to them what went wrong they ignore and surpressed it. Why? I cant understand.

Example?

[Mikko-kun]

There aren't any alternatives to science.

No but a lot of alternatives in how you can do science. Saying you had found the way is like saying you know god exists. You can say it and all, but dont expect everyone to buy it. I think you put it just about right in here:

You know in my life I've met a lot of people I would assess as corrupt, and I think it is a personality trait. The dumb and violent ones end up in jail; those more sophisticated become lawyers and politicians and businessmen, but not doctors and engineers and scientists and teachers.

That is not to say that lawyers and politicians and businessmen are always or even usually corrupt. A lot depends on the details of how the society is constructed.

I still believe corruption and things like that are a choise. To suffer the trouble of not having a lucrative position nor good status and be subjected to abuse by other corrupt ones, or to justify what you do with whatever you can come up with so you can sleep a night better. Corruption is a choise you choose when there's something in it for you that you need. Opportunity makes a thief. If you give the right conditions, you can make anyone, anyone, break bad. Only very, very few of us would say something if the world disagreed with your view and shutting up was what was needed to keep living a decent life. Like in nazi Germany, that really proves a point here, a whole nation going along with the corruption.

I dont know the whole scientific community, but I know what makes a human being break bad. Conditions and conditioning. You dont need guns for that, just threaten what they see as their dignity and well-being and good life, and you got it. You can call it extortion, evolutionary choise, capitalism, plain business, how the world works, but it will still exist there. A lot of people do works they dont morally agree with, do those works because of these reasons. That scientists can keep working on weapons and things that could destroy the whole life on earth in an instant, should be a proof of that. It's not just corruption, it's annihilation. Allowing your humanity to be corrupted based on justifications like "someone will make it anyway one day so just better be me". No justification will help when the crap hits the fan.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

That's not an answer. "If so and so causes this, and look no further". Vaccines don't cause autism. There has never been a link.

Example?

Emma,

Read my post 59 again. There are many scientists which claim that vaccines cause autism. But isnt just autism problem. Brain damage. Etc. Theme is quite big. I could post many articles where scientists claim what I claim. But I wont. I did try in one thread and post is deleted. So I will just post this

http://www.scoop.co....0503/S00089.htm

If that isnt satisfying you can always search google. Autism screams for researchs. And many point to vaccine. Also I will not say its on purpose. But we see that even that isnt something that didnt happened in history. As trying to make sterile men and women. In Africa and South/Central America.

Anyway many vaccines cause different things. Read my post 59.

Why we get vaccines against disease which in almost harmless? Or why vaccinate if disease is in decline for others reasons and its prooven that vaccines didnt cause decline. You can see researchers and years. I will not post it here to not pollute thread.

Read my post and follow my posts in future there will be plenty evidences.

As for example-GMO!

Edited October 12, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[Big Bad Voodoo]

You know in my life I've met a lot of people I would assess as corrupt, and I think it is a personality trait. The dumb and violent ones end up in jail; those more sophisticated become lawyers and politicians and businessmen, but not doctors and engineers and scientists and teachers.

That is not to say that lawyers and politicians and businessmen are always or even usually corrupt. A lot depends on the details of how the society is constructed.

I disagree. We often caught teachers pedophiles and we recent caught in my country one teacher that theach children that Sai Baba is God. We also , atleast in my country, caught web of doctors who worked for Pharma and prescribe "cures" by our secret agency. We also publicly judge scientists who prostitue themselves for new equipment, great looking CV, money for new research. So I agree, it depends how society is constructed. If you ignore corruption there are none corrupted doctors, scientists or teachers.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo

[bmk1245]

[...]

If that isnt satisfying you can always search google. Autism screams for researchs. And many point to vaccine.[...]

How about organic farming causing autism

(link)

Try to disprove THAT, I dare you...

[...]

Why we get vaccines against disease which in almost harmless? [...]

Is that so? Of course, flu/<put any other disease here> is harmless...

Edit: added link.

Edited October 12, 2013 by bmk1245

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Also I will post one more reason why people reject science. Its because of nature of science which people many time dont know.

That science is self correcting.

My neighbour is old lady. She have garden. And I told her that I read recently how when you saying nice words to plants that plant grow better.

She said:" I read that too. And I did and plant died. What do they know?"

Then I respond maybe because you smoke and cigaretes kill it. She said: I read recently how smoking is good.

Then she said: When I was young they said to drink hot tea when you throat is red. Now they said eat icecream.

And I left without word.

[bmk1245]

Also I will post one more reason why people reject science. Its because of nature of science which people many time dont know.

That science is self correcting.

My neighbour is old lady. She have garden. And I told her that I read recently how when you saying nice words to plants that plant grow better.

She said:" I read that too. And I did and plant died. What do they know?"

Then I respond maybe because you smoke and cigaretes kill it. She said: I read recently how smoking is good.

Then she said: When I was young they said to drink hot tea when you throat is red. Now they said eat icecream.

And I left without word.

Funny thing, you just described yourself (as that old lady in your neighborhood). You cling to the bogus sources supported not by data/evidence, but by cherry picking, wishful thinking, and sheer ignorance.

[Space Commander Travis]

Emma,

Read my post 59 again. There are many scientists which claim that vaccines cause autism. But isnt just autism problem. Brain damage. Etc. Theme is quite big. I could post many articles where scientists claim what I claim. But I wont. I did try in one thread and post is deleted. So I will just post this

these mythical "many scientists" meaning someone with a chip on their shoulder (probably because some wacky theory they came up with was treated with derision by the scientific community) who was once on Alex Jones. So again, let me see, as i asked before, if I've got this straight; this theory must be true because one "scientist" says it is, so that outweighs all the other scientists who hold the preposterous idea that the diseases that are vaccinated against are much more harmful than vaccines, is that right? All these other scientists are government Stooges, and this one "scientist" who was on Alex Jones once is the only one telling the Truth.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Funny thing, you just described yourself (as that old lady in your neighborhood). You cling to the bogus sources supported not by data/evidence, but by cherry picking, wishful thinking, and sheer ignorance.

If you and colonel think it then I will leave without word again.

[bmk1245]

If you and colonel think it then I will leave without word again.

Yeah, run away, just watch the doors not smacking your bum.

[Big Bad Voodoo]

Yeah, run away, just watch the doors not smacking your bum.

LOL

I will not run away. Just I think its pointless to discuss with persons who cant grasp conclusion from simple story. Even I stressed out it.

I learnt on UM on who Im wasting my time.

Edited October 12, 2013 by Big Bad Voodoo