Atlantis: what did Plato get wrong?

[granpa]

it was a very simple question.

as I pointed out in the op, everything that plato said cant be taken as the literal truth because its not possible for such an island to exist.

so some part of what plato said must be either wrong or not meant to be taken literally.

people on this board are still arguing that atlantis must be here or it must be there because plato said this or plato said that.

I'm simply asking people to make it clear what parts they take as literally accurate and which parts they dont.

obviously we can simply assume that atlantis never existed at all and plato made the whole thing up.

that is one possibility.

this thread is about all the other possibilities.

Edited October 15, 2013 by granpa

[jaylemurph]

Gramps:

You seem to be under the impression that "no answer" and "answers you don't like" are the same thing. While this is a common error, it is also a way to inure yourself to learning anything. It undermines any geniune attempt you make at understanding something. People have done nothing /but/ answer your question, but you pretending no one has insults them/us and demeans you.

--Jaylemurph

[Avallaine]

it was a very simple question.

as I pointed out in the op, everything that plato said cant be taken as the literal truth because its not possible for such an island to exist.

so some part of what plato said must be either wrong or not meant to be taken literally....

The question is both too amorphous and too limited. It's essentially asking everyone who thinks Atlantis is based on some kind of truth to describe their pet theories, but the possible theories for Atlantis extend all over the earth (and often beyond it) and over vast millenia of time.

But the way you phrased it--"What Plato Got Wrong"--is assuming that the answerer thinks of Plato as getting something "wrong" in the first place When I gave my honest answer - that I don't think he got anything wrong because he wasn't attempting to be "right"--you say I'm dancing around the question. But that's the only answer I can give...Plato was clearly more interested in telling a story with a message/theme/moral in it than he was in presenting any kind of history. It's like asking what Shakespeare got "wrong" in Hamlet. Shakespeare wasn't telling a history of the Icelandic hero Amlóði, he was using fragments of myth as a framework to tell his own story for his own purpose. So, I think, was Plato.

...And by the way...I'm not a grown man.

[granpa]

so your answer is that atlantis isnt a real place?

[granpa]

my question in the op was specifically directed to those that believe that atlantis is a real place

[+DieChecker]

obviously we can simply assume that atlantis never existed at all and plato made the whole thing up.

that is one possibility.

this thread is about all the other possibilities.

Assuming Atlantis is based on a real place....

1) It was a city on the ocean/sea.

2) It was prosperous enough to have a military, including a navy/ships.

3) It was known to the early Greeks.

4) It disappeared from history early on, or was destroyed by some catastrophe.

5) It attempted to invade at least part of Greece.

Given just those, there are thousands of possibilities inside the Med and outside in the Atlantic.

Edited October 16, 2013 by DieChecker

[Avallaine]

so your answer is that atlantis isnt a real place?

I'll assume that was directed at me...I don't think "Atlantis," as Plato described it, is a real place. I tend to think it was based on several places, some of which were real, but some of which were mythical. He almost certainly was inspired by the real town of Helike, which vanished in a day during an earthquake/tsunami event during his lifetime; and I think there were probably some oral stories going round the Mediterranean based on places destroyed by the various tectonic disasters the area is prone to, which might reach back to the eruption of Thera, and even farther in human history. I also think that stories of a lost "golden age" are part of many myth cycles and probably both influenced and were influenced by real events.

I think it's possible that Plato's Atlantis had a more "real" inspiration--a city more advanced than we know of existing longer ago than is currently considered likely--but I wouldn't know where to begin to look for it (neither geographically nor temporally). There are too many theories and possibilities. And I just can't shake the feeling that Plato wasn't interested in the factual basis of Atlantis, no more than Shakespeare was interested in the facts of Amlóði. To figure out what Plato kept and what he changed, you'd have to figure out where he was going with his story and what he meant it to say...and it's a story he never finished!

[kmt_sesh]

it was a very simple question.

as I pointed out in the op, everything that plato said cant be taken as the literal truth because its not possible for such an island to exist.

so some part of what plato said must be either wrong or not meant to be taken literally.

people on this board are still arguing that atlantis must be here or it must be there because plato said this or plato said that.

I'm simply asking people to make it clear what parts they take as literally accurate and which parts they dont.

obviously we can simply assume that atlantis never existed at all and plato made the whole thing up.

that is one possibility.

this thread is about all the other possibilities.

I made it clear in my earlier post that I don't think Atlantis was a real place, and based on Plato's descriptions, I explained why he was wrong and, by extension, why we can determine Atlantis was not a real place. You seem to want only a certain demographic to participate and the rest of us are frustrating you. Well, that's not my own intent but you must realize most people don't think Atlantis was real. I'm not just talking about professional historians but every-day people, too. You can't control who takes part in the discussion. There are a handful of ardent "believers" at UM but for whatever reason they have seen fit not to join in, yet. So you're left with the rest of us, and most of the rest of us simply don't believe Atlantis existed—anywhere, at any time.

Your conjecture is that Atlantis existed elsewhere in the world and that it somehow arrived at Plato's feet, who spun his tale and got the details wrong. The thing is, it's considerably unlikely for such a thing to have happened. Plato's tale of Atlantis is Greek through and through, involves the Mediterranean world in significant detail, and Plato himself is very clear on where Atlantis was supposed to have been physically located. There's no reason to assume he got the tale second- or third-hand and put his own spin on it.

That being said, you're stuck with the majority who don't believe the reality of Atlantis to begin with, so you're not likely to get a lot of dialog on other places where it might have been. UM might have a disproportionate share of "believers" than would be reflected in the regular population, so you might use the forum's search feature just to see that past posters have tried to put Atlantis in South America, Greenland, Australia, and other unrealistic places. You're not the first to propose this scenario, granpa, and you won't be the last.

[Leonardo]

my question in the op was specifically directed to those that believe that atlantis is a real place

No, it wasn't.

for the sake of this thread lets assume that atlantis is a real place and not just imaginary.

You asked people to suspend whatever they believed to be true and assume Atlantis existed as a real place. Once you set aside what is known/believed and begin to speculate without any guidelines or parameters, anything becomes possible.

That is why, in the context of your question, Atlantis could be anywhere, anywhen.

[granpa]

that doesnt even make any sense

[Leonardo]

that doesnt even make any sense

Perhaps there is a disconnect between what you and what others believe "makes sense". That does not suggest those 'others' are wrong.

[granpa]

why would I ask others to pretend that atlantis is real

and then ask them what parts they believe are accurate and which parts they think are made up?

Edited October 16, 2013 by granpa

[Leonardo]

why would I ask others to pretend that atlantis is real

and then ask them what parts they believe are accurate and which parts they think are made up?

Perhaps it was a mistake on your part?

[docyabut2]

Lets face it Atlantis was most likey a real place based on rich city that came to ruin that Solon spoke of. It was never said Atlantis was a advanced empire but a very rich one and Solon in all his poems favored virture over riches.

[granpa]

I think we can all agree that this part

Atlantis, which, as I was saying, was an island greater in extent than Libya and Asia

cannot be literally true

[Mario Dantas]

[+DieChecker]

EDIT:

Posting here is just not worth the typing time....

Edited October 17, 2013 by DieChecker

[granpa]

Assuming Atlantis is based on a real place....

1) It was a city on the ocean/sea.

2) It was prosperous enough to have a military, including a navy/ships.

3) It was known to the early Greeks.

4) It disappeared from history early on, or was destroyed by some catastrophe.

5) It attempted to invade at least part of Greece.

Given just those, there are thousands of possibilities inside the Med and outside in the Atlantic.

this thread isnt about where atlantis is located.

its about what parts of platos account are literally true and which parts arent

[kmt_sesh]

this thread isnt about where atlantis is located.

its about what parts of platos account are literally true and which parts arent

And many posters, myself included, have commented on what the errors are. You're getting plenty of feedback, just not the kind you were hoping for. Isn't that telling you something about the majority view on Atlantis?

I for one think few if any of the details in Plato's dialog can be taken as true.

[granpa]

which is a trivial answer which, as I made clear in the op, there is no point in discussing

this thread is for those people that believe atlantis is a real place

and believe that significant parts of platos account are accurate

Edited October 17, 2013 by granpa

[kmt_sesh]

which is a trivial answer which, as I made clear in the op, there is no point in discussing

this thread is for those people that believe atlantis is a real place

and believe that significant parts of platos account are accurate

Well, most people don't believe Atlantis is true, so you're stuck with whoever wishes to post in this discussion. You cannot dictate who can or cannot post. You're limiting the scope of your discussion to speculative intangibles not borne out by extant evidence, and I think numerous posters have done a sufficient job pointing that out. You're stuck with all of us.

Even as a Mod I cannot say who is allowed or not allowed to join a discussion. That's not how forums work.

[granpa]

I cant force people to not post but as op I believe that I am allowed to determine the topic

[kmt_sesh]

I cant force people to not post but as op I believe that I am allowed to determine the topic

Yes, you have every right to determine the topic, and you can try to encourage how the discussion should go according to your wishes, but in the end you can't control who posts or how the content develops.

[Mario Dantas]

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and night of misfortune all your warlike men in a body sank into the earth, and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable,because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the <a name="316" style="color: rgb(0, 0, 0); font-family: 'Times New Roman'; font-size: medium; background-color: rgb(255, 255, 204); ">subsidence of the island.

http://classics.mit.edu/Plato/timaeus.html

Granpa,

I believe Plato was wrong about two things, if he was correct at all about Atlantis:

- The disappearance of the island of Atlantis, was in fact a move from point A (Azores/Gibraltar region) to point B (modern location);

- The metrics were not correctly "translated" from Khet to Stadia, since it is not physically possible to look at a place 550 km distant, due to the roundness of our globe.

Regards,

Mario Dantas

[Mario Dantas]

EDIT

But afterwards there occurred violent earthquakes and floods; and in a single day and and the island of Atlantis in like manner disappeared in the depths of the sea. For which reason the sea in those parts is impassable and impenetrable,because there is a shoal of mud in the way; and this was caused by the subsidence of the island.

http://classics.mit....to/timaeus.html

Edited October 17, 2013 by Mario Dantas